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Ah. I assume that the justification is scaling far above 3.6 GT, so baseline would be more appropriate.Calaca Vs said:
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Sebas Tian vs. Monkey D. Luffy
- Thread starter Dargoo_Faust
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- #43
Scaling far above 3.6 GT when it's less than 2x away from baseline 6-C would put Ainz at 6-C via common sense.
The freezing feat was extremely causal and is several tiers away from his strongest spells.
The freezing feat was extremely causal and is several tiers away from his strongest spells.
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@Dargoo
Actually if the feat isn't 6-C (which 3.667 Gigatons isn't) he can't be higher than that. Needs a downgrade.
Actually if the feat isn't 6-C (which 3.667 Gigatons isn't) he can't be higher than that. Needs a downgrade.
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We scale people up tiers all the time who are far above feats or character who borderline tiers.Assaltwaffle said:
@Yobi World-Tier items.
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He has several world tier items on his person all the time.
The orb in his chest is a World-tier item, heck.
The orb in his chest is a World-tier item, heck.
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We should fix that then.
About Luffy's precog:
Kenbunshoku Haki is the ability to 'hear' and sense the surroundings. Usually the basic usage of this ability grants the ability to sense and feel people and animal's strength and emotions. Letting feel emotions such as aggresivity or violence. IIRC the 'aura' of attacks can be sensed as well.
Adept and proficient users can sense the surroundings and have some sort of precog just like Spider-Sense. Proficient users have this ability in a better scale.
Advanced Haki users can see several seconds into the future. It's the evolution of this Haki that led Luffy to match Katakuri who was overwhelming him before with the same ability and many other advantages.
Now, Kenbunshoku is active not passive. The user must be calmed and concentrated to make this Haki properly work. In a battle this isn't a problem for Luffy unless he's enraged (as shown against Kaido) or he gets distracted (as shown when Flampe shooted a needle in his leg which let Katakuri stab him).
And no. Luffy doesn't let the enemies attack him just because 'lolrubber'. At this point Luffy has fought with many Busoshoku users who circumvents this resistance so he wouldn't let Sebas touch his forehead having the advertising coming from Kenbunshoku.
Now if Luffy starts at G4 I vote for him. Sebas's hax needs to make contact to get activated and Luffy has many ways to overcome this. He's 3x stronger, more agile and has better stamina. Added the precognition and it's a decisive win for Luffy.
About Luffy's precog:
Kenbunshoku Haki is the ability to 'hear' and sense the surroundings. Usually the basic usage of this ability grants the ability to sense and feel people and animal's strength and emotions. Letting feel emotions such as aggresivity or violence. IIRC the 'aura' of attacks can be sensed as well.
Adept and proficient users can sense the surroundings and have some sort of precog just like Spider-Sense. Proficient users have this ability in a better scale.
Advanced Haki users can see several seconds into the future. It's the evolution of this Haki that led Luffy to match Katakuri who was overwhelming him before with the same ability and many other advantages.
Now, Kenbunshoku is active not passive. The user must be calmed and concentrated to make this Haki properly work. In a battle this isn't a problem for Luffy unless he's enraged (as shown against Kaido) or he gets distracted (as shown when Flampe shooted a needle in his leg which let Katakuri stab him).
And no. Luffy doesn't let the enemies attack him just because 'lolrubber'. At this point Luffy has fought with many Busoshoku users who circumvents this resistance so he wouldn't let Sebas touch his forehead having the advertising coming from Kenbunshoku.
Now if Luffy starts at G4 I vote for him. Sebas's hax needs to make contact to get activated and Luffy has many ways to overcome this. He's 3x stronger, more agile and has better stamina. Added the precognition and it's a decisive win for Luffy.
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@Dargoo
We used to. Not anymore. Unless someone has an accepted and known increase in power (50% to 100% Frieza, for example), they are stuck with "at least" and are accepted to be unquantifiably above the feat they scale to, yet are superior to.
We used to. Not anymore. Unless someone has an accepted and known increase in power (50% to 100% Frieza, for example), they are stuck with "at least" and are accepted to be unquantifiably above the feat they scale to, yet are superior to.
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Luffy's always 'passively' using it. He learned this new evolution of precog not many time ago but that's future sight only. He uses the regular precognition often.
And let me fix something: If Luffy's calm the precog is kinda passive. He'd know about the dangers around him like a sixth sense. Future Sight is far better than that.
And let me fix something: If Luffy's calm the precog is kinda passive. He'd know about the dangers around him like a sixth sense. Future Sight is far better than that.
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I don't know why would it be. His precog isn't infalible and the difference is 3x (4x at most) so it's not that big. It was a stomp when Luffy started at G3 which would turn this into a blitzstomp.
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What if it was 2nd Gear Luffy? Sebas would actually have an advantage in that fight.
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Sebas has nothing rn but an awesome name and badass creator, both of which are irrelevant.
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It can fail. Surprise attacks has more options even if the precog still warns Luffy. Also, he has been attacked even having Precog.
Also Gear 4th holds for 20 minutes at most. After that Luffy has no Haki for 10 minutes so he's drastically weakened.
Edit: If you think G2 is better then go ahead.
Also Gear 4th holds for 20 minutes at most. After that Luffy has no Haki for 10 minutes so he's drastically weakened.
Edit: If you think G2 is better then go ahead.
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Nothing but strong will and sheer stupidity to avoid the fear itself.
Going by feats Luffy has no way to tell if Sebas has hax. Sugar has a transformation hax which lets her to transform people into toys and she almost catches Luffy and Law together if Usopp didn't intercepted her.
Going by feats Luffy has no way to tell if Sebas has hax. Sugar has a transformation hax which lets her to transform people into toys and she almost catches Luffy and Law together if Usopp didn't intercepted her.
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I don't think Luffy will be able to win, then. Strong will alone likely won't do it- Climb was barely able to survive it and Brain was sure he would die from it, and it could be argued that Sebas wasn't actually even trying to kill. Then you have the hax, which Calaca says he wouldn't see coming.
Does Sebas actually win this..?
Does Sebas actually win this..?
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Info Analysis should tell him that Luffy is far stronger so he should know to go for his hax. He is also a master martial artist so survivng long enough shouldn't be too hard. If he gets tagged however, that will be a problem.
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This is from Fear Manipulation page:
Limitations
Depending on the user and medium, Fear Manipulation can occasionally be depicted as a power which can be overcome with bravery, willpower and courage.
So we need to find how Sebas's hax works beyond the application method.
Limitations
Depending on the user and medium, Fear Manipulation can occasionally be depicted as a power which can be overcome with bravery, willpower and courage.
So we need to find how Sebas's hax works beyond the application method.
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Well, he really just stared at Climb and looked intimidating as hell.
Chances are Sebas was holding back, as he's more like Lord Touch Me and doesn't kill innocent people as readily as some of his comrades.
So I think Luffy would succumb to it.
Chances are Sebas was holding back, as he's more like Lord Touch Me and doesn't kill innocent people as readily as some of his comrades.
So I think Luffy would succumb to it.
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The only time I remember Luffy facing something like that is at Summit War when he fought Mihawk who is said to be capable of inducing fear with his glares. Luffy faced him as usual and only retrieved himself when he saw a glimpse of the 'future' where his hands get sliced.
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Hm, well, perhaps Luffy doesn't die, but it would surely leave him stunned or put off for a moment, yes? Sebas would take that moment to slap Luffy on the head and Mind Hax, yea? I'm leaning towards Sebas, high-diff.
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I'm still voting on Luffy. Even without the AP advantage he's more skilled and Gear Second doesn't strain him like Gear 4th. On top of that he can fight for days. He has the range advantage aswell.
BTW reading at Sebas's profile it says that his Climb survived for love. Is Sebas's FM resisted by strong emotions? Luffy is one of the most passionate characters in OP.
BTW reading at Sebas's profile it says that his Climb survived for love. Is Sebas's FM resisted by strong emotions? Luffy is one of the most passionate characters in OP.
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It's more of an assumption (With some of the less used Overlord characters it has to be done) that he was holding back, as for Sebas, it makes a lot of sense. I highly doubt he'd go all-out in some level 7 kid.
I can see how Luffy would win, but if he doesn't know of Sebas's hax, Sebas's better experience will let him land the one hit he needs.
I can see how Luffy would win, but if he doesn't know of Sebas's hax, Sebas's better experience will let him land the one hit he needs.
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@Calaca
You need to have something intense that is worth living for. For Climb, the Princess was his reason for living, so he thought of her and survived.
You need to have something intense that is worth living for. For Climb, the Princess was his reason for living, so he thought of her and survived.
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That's another thing. And I mean, Climb loves the princess so much he'd die for her, and even then it left him scared shitless. Even if Luffy doesn't die, it would give Sebas an opening to thwack his forehead and win.
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While Sebas has the hax advantage his experience isn't problem for Luffy.
Since BoS Luffy has been beating people 2x this age. People with decades of experience in battle and living as pirates/marines. On top of that every Marine has militar training which suggests martial arts and Luffy's far superior to all of them.
He even defeated someone like Rob Lucci, who's an government assassin with 15 years of experience and efectiveness.
Right now Sebas could only beat Luffy inducing fear on him but if it can be resisted (holding back or not) by emotions then Luffy could overcome it. He has little to no fear in most cases.
Giving this to Luffy. The starting distance makes harder to Sebas to look at Luffy while Luffy could spam ranged attacks and pummel Sebas.
Since BoS Luffy has been beating people 2x this age. People with decades of experience in battle and living as pirates/marines. On top of that every Marine has militar training which suggests martial arts and Luffy's far superior to all of them.
He even defeated someone like Rob Lucci, who's an government assassin with 15 years of experience and efectiveness.
Right now Sebas could only beat Luffy inducing fear on him but if it can be resisted (holding back or not) by emotions then Luffy could overcome it. He has little to no fear in most cases.
Giving this to Luffy. The starting distance makes harder to Sebas to look at Luffy while Luffy could spam ranged attacks and pummel Sebas.
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Luffy will to survive for his crew is what you would expect of a shounen, it's definitly enough.
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We're not saying he will be inmune. Resistant is more than enough.
The starting distance is 50 meters so Luffy has that advantage. He could start kicking him at that distance and with Luffy's style he won't give time to Sebas to use his glares (on top of being too far away to being useful).
The starting distance is 50 meters so Luffy has that advantage. He could start kicking him at that distance and with Luffy's style he won't give time to Sebas to use his glares (on top of being too far away to being useful).
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Going out to die for someone is... like... basic shounen stuff. Luffy went physical torture that should have killed him to save his brother for exemle.
And luffy would likely be at range too.
And luffy would likely be at range too.
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So, uh
Should I change the version of Luffy or are we good as we are?
Also I begrudgingly agree with Assault, although there are some cases where, and several other staff members have agreed, the gap is narrow enough for a tier jump.
Like, if a character is 1% lower than a tier, and another character one-shot them, wouldn't it be fair to say the other character is at least 1% higher or the bassline of the next tier?
If we say "no" because rules say otherwise, we're letting beurocratic nonsense cloud common sense.
That said it was a super tier spell, and we don't know by what degree world tier items are above them, so 7-A+ seems okay for now.
Should I change the version of Luffy or are we good as we are?
Also I begrudgingly agree with Assault, although there are some cases where, and several other staff members have agreed, the gap is narrow enough for a tier jump.
Like, if a character is 1% lower than a tier, and another character one-shot them, wouldn't it be fair to say the other character is at least 1% higher or the bassline of the next tier?
If we say "no" because rules say otherwise, we're letting beurocratic nonsense cloud common sense.
That said it was a super tier spell, and we don't know by what degree world tier items are above them, so 7-A+ seems okay for now.
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...Even being stunned or put off or scared means he loses, since Sebas just needs to hit him once. Sebas can just play a slow dodge game at a range since he's far more experienced, and once he gets close enough, he fears, Luffy resists just enough to not die, and then he gets mind haxed.
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