SCP Discussion Thread 5

[Agnaa]

There isn't a lack of a cohesive canon. I get that you came back and there were a ton more posts, but I left two more right after your last post before you left in response to it which clears up a lot of the concerns.

You could also argue that officially licensed stories done by different authors are practically fanfiction, but they tend to have enough quality and consistency to be treated as valid.

Hell, everything on the scpwiki is technically fanfiction based off of 173's concept of the foundation, a lot of which doesn't make complete sense when compared to that original post.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Clearly that isn't the case anymore, probably after those people saw how wanked the verse became after that.

The verse isnt wanked

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Unless we want to disregard the wiki's rules for kicks and giggles, no, a complete lack of cohesive canon shouldn't just be shoved in the back seat of our heads and forgotton about.
Everything on the verse is made so that the authors can write stories in and about this world, with the only restriction being how well the audience receives it. That goes against the very purpose of the wiki, which is getting solid stats and limitations to fictional characters.

Tales that aren't by the original author or made with the author in collaboration are practically fan fiction that may or may not get removed if it's terrible enough. Just look at some of the old entries on the 682 termination log.

>solid stats

what you're doing will put most of the verse and almost all god-tiers into unknown with no stats

those "old entries" were made like 10 years ago and are only kept around because that log and 682 were so popular, plus they couldn't be made nowadays

 

[Agnaa]

And some of those "old entries" seem worse to you since you're blatantly ignoring the context.

The 05s and the researchers didn't just decide for ***** and giggles to feet children to 682. One rogue researcher did it without seeking permission and recorded the results, when others found out he was punished.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

That's because those profiles were made with scaling methods that don't even follow the site's rules.

So we're deciding the canon of a verse based on popularity. Okay then.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

No, we're deciding the canon of a verse based on the fact that it's canon is fluid and entirely dependant on different authors writing different tales and articless about the same SCP in order to give depth to the characters they create

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

None of the tales or scips are officially lisensed in any way

The make it clear that there is no official view of the verse.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

For someone who has read through SCP for years you dont really seem to understand that throughout all tales, the same characters are all treated as being a consistent level throughout different tales by different writers, there are no massive differences between authors like youre implying without clear explanations

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

A Suicide Note, the lolFoundation Canon, and many others directly contradict Clef's original tales. Unfinished Business doesn't line up with many of Kondraki's tales either. There's several different backstories for 106 and 682, and Bright's tales contradict most of the modern intepretations of those characters.

Fanfictions can be pretty close to the original writing. Doesn't mean they're endorsed by the author or backed by the owner of the verse. Correlation does not equal causation. Just because some tales line up doesn't mean they take place in the same universe, especially when the site does not want to make it out that way.

 

[Agnaa]

A Suicide Note, the lolFoundation Canon, and many others directly contradict Clef's original tales. Unfinished Business doesn't line up with many of Kondraki's tales either. There's several different backstories for 106 and 682, and Bright's tales contradict most of the modern intepretations of those characters.

Fanfictions can be pretty close to the original writing. Doesn't mean they're endorsed by the author or backed by the owner of the verse. Correlation does not equal causation. Just because some tales line up doesn't mean they take place in the same universe, especially when the site does not want to make it out that way.

I already explained why these examples are bad earlier.

My dude, you linked the lolfoundation hub. That is canonically an alternate universe where one of the 05s granted senior staff reality warping powers through an anomaly and it turned out horribly. It speaks leagues that the only stuff you could find was clef/kondraki stuff from 2008-09, half of which you linked is either retconned, or doesn't feature reality warping on the part of staff at all.

Everything we do on this site involves good faith on verses. We assume that steel has the same fragmentation energy in fiction as it does in real life, how the **** do we know that? How do we know that kinetic energy formulas are the same between two shows?

There is a multiversal explanation, I can link you an SCP which features AUs with different foundations, and I can link you the tale explaining how lolfoundation came to form in an AU and why it failed in the main one. Those are just off the top of my head, I could probably find more and others in this thread probably know more.

 

[Agnaa]

Also since this is about to hit 500 posts, new thread.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Linking me an SCP that has a multiverse doesn't mean jack, as it's from an author who might have a completely different worldview of the site.

If you want to base this verse on "good faith", go ahead. I don't, and enough agree with me that doing that's caused more harm than good.

The site literally tells you to "make of the canon what you will".

I feel like this isn't going to stop any time soon, so let's take a break from this for now, and see how staff views the proposal, as they make the rules for the the site. I already have more than ample approval.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

It has caused literally no harm whatsoever and never has

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

If you feel that should be the wiki's interpretation of it, sure, but it's not representative of how the verse is actually protrayed.

 

[Agnaa]

I said I could link it because you said

There is no multiversal explanation. That's something you're assuming because there's no other way to accept the fact that the Foundationverse breaks nearly every rule this site has as it was.

You were just objectively wrong with this statement. There are countless statements of alternate universes with alternate foundations existing, and that is the entire basis of the lolfoundation hub. If hubs are canon to other tales within them, then the lolfoundation canon is completely canonically an alternate universe, and the existence of it presents zero contradictions.

You're saying there's tons of contradictions but it only seems like there are since you're not involved enough in the SCP canon. Even if nothing changes about how you approach changing the canon, I want to demonstrate that it's not as broken and inconsistent as you're imagining.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

>There is no mutiversal explanation

I can show you at least 30 different tales and dozens of SCPs that prove otherwise

 

[Phoenix821]

Do it please in the next thread.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The SCP-682 termination log I feel like is the best example I can give, in terms of actually causing broken changes to come to the wiki on the flip of a dime. I linked the lolFoundation verse because I thought you were implying that they "deleted all of them/stopped taking them seriously", to which I point at the page ratings.

There is no multiverse explaination that would actually apply to the verse as a whole, because one Author's view of the cosmology might be different from another.

To each their own, I suppose. I want there to be defined lines for how we treat the Foundationverse, clearly many supporters here don't want there to be. I guess it'll just be left up to whether or not the blog post gets enough mod support.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Weekly The problem with that is it's Acidverse saying Djoric's stories are canon to Acidverse. Not Djoric saying Acidverse is canon to their stories.

Any characters from Acidverse might scale to Djoric's stories (no clue if we came to a conclusion on whether author's statements on canonicity should count), but not the other way around.

Can someone give me some clarification about how Acidverse interacts with Djoricverse? If I'm right, our profile for Isabel Helga Anastasia Parvati Wondertainment V is mainly about Djoric's portrayal. There's this Tale from Acidverse called Empty Unmarked Grave, part of which is about Isabel's inheritance. I currently have an Isabel CRT open and am unsure if this is applicable to mainline Isabel. Is it usable?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Can someone give me some clarification about how Acidverse interacts with Djoricverse? If I'm right, our profile for Isabel Helga Anastasia Parvati Wondertainment V is mainly about Djoric's portrayal. There's this Tale from Acidverse called Empty Unmarked Grave, part of which is about Isabel's inheritance. I currently have an Isabel CRT open and am unsure if this is applicable to mainline Isabel. Is it usable?

Acidverse treats Real Adventures in Capitalism as tangentially canon to it, which means Djoricverse is canon to Acidverse.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Also I want to put this down in writing somewhere first just in case someone brings it up in the future.

Much like the Cthulhu Mythos, SCP is an IP that the public is able to use freely to create derivative works. As we've seen from Winnie the Pooh and its horror movie adaptation, such works take story elements directly from the source but change certain aspects of it to fit a new narrative.

With this in mind, SCP being a public creative fiction project, means it lends itself to being in the same camp as these public domain IPs. Which means works such as Containment Breach, Secret Laboratory, and Confidement, would be considered completely new IPs separate from the main source. As such you're free to make profiles for them on this wiki as long as they're treated as completely separate works that are in no way related to the main SCP verse page.

Should anyone try to dispute the existence of any profile from the above mentioned IPs on this wiki, you're given my express permission to copy and paste this message verbatim as an argument against them.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Acidverse treats Real Adventures in Capitalism as tangentially canon to it, which means Djoricverse is canon to Acidverse.

I already know Djoricverse is canon to Acidverse but is Acidverse canon to Djoricverse? Those questions aren't the same, as one SCP canon might acknowledge another without the second recognizing the first.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

For the purposes of indexing I don't think it matters? Since they would be treated as one canon under our current standards. There's a reason we don't make a Djoricverse and Acidverse separation; there just isn't enough information from each by themselves to derive profiles from.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

For the purposes of indexing I don't think it matters? Since they would be treated as one canon under our current standards. There's a reason we don't make a Djoricverse and Acidverse separation; there just isn't enough information from each by themselves to derive profiles from.

Okay, I'll take your word for it and include Empty Unmarked Grave in my Isabel writeup, as it's essentially primary canon for her if Djoricverse and Acidverse are indexed as one canon.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Two more questions:

• Is Miss Heir, the only origin story I found for Isabel, Djoricverse canon? TwistedGears wrote this Tale, and he has a WoG that djkaktus, DrLeanord, CryogenChaos, weizhong, Conwell, Djoric, and ihp had input on it. The Tale doesn't link to a canon.
• To what extent is When We Came Home, an outdated depiction of the last entry in TRAIC, usable? Two inconsistencies from a glance:
  • WWCH depicts SCP-1440 with the 4th Spear while TRAIC depicts SCP-231-7 with it and instead has SCP-1440 play cards with the Small-Death during the battle.
  • WWCH has all seven spear-wielders survive while TRAIC has everyone except Isabel die slaying the Scarlet King.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Bump.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Also I want to put this down in writing somewhere first just in case someone brings it up in the future.

Much like the Cthulhu Mythos, SCP is an IP that the public is able to use freely to create derivative works. As we've seen from Winnie the Pooh and its horror movie adaptation, such works take story elements directly from the source but change certain aspects of it to fit a new narrative.

With this in mind, SCP being a public creative fiction project, means it lends itself to being in the same camp as these public domain IPs. Which means works such as Containment Breach, Secret Laboratory, and Confidement, would be considered completely new IPs separate from the main source. As such you're free to make profiles for them on this wiki as long as they're treated as completely separate works that are in no way related to the main SCP verse page.

Should anyone try to dispute the existence of any profile from the above mentioned IPs on this wiki, you're given my express permission to copy and paste this message verbatim as an argument against them.

would minecraft scp roleplay count. They have a story and are dinstinct

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Roleplay would fall under the perview of fanfiction I'm pretty sure, which is why we don't have pages for Critical Role.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Howdy, here to correct that, Critical Role is canon to D&D, was made so some years ago. I won't be doing anything with that information, but the wiki could indeed have Critical Role pages if A. you could reliably stat them out and B. you were dedicated enough to do it. The same would not go for other roleplaying things, mind you, Critical Role is the exception.

I will note that Winnie the Pooh and the Cthulhu Mythos are also extremely different cases than SCP, and thus the argument by comparison is invalid- Winnie the Pooh and Cthulhu Mythos are public domain, whereas SCP is listed under Creative Commons (i.e., anybody can contribute and have their work be valid). If we are using that as an argument, I think you ought to be worried about the implications of that- frankly, I find that such an argument is more likely to outright get SCP scrubbed off the site, than to allow any piece of side media because of what it is, legally, considered. Food for thought, Ovens.

Actually, I may take that up with Ant, if this is really the SCPbro stance then this... worsens, a bad situation.

 

[Dragonstitch]

Like Bambu said Critical Role is canon to D&D in fact it has been cannon since Descent into Avernus in 2019. as well it has 2 official books printed. we just don't have pages since it would require the person making them to sit through 447 hours of content, on top of one shots, the talk show, the animated show, and the comics just to make Vax machina pages. this is not getting into the over 556 hours of content needed to make the mighty nein pages.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Like Bambu said Critical Role is canon to D&D in fact it has been cannon since Descent into Avernus in 2019. as well it has 2 official books printed. we just don't have pages since it would require the person making them to sit through 447 hours of content, on top of one shots, the talk show, the animated show, and the comics just to make Vax machina pages. this is not getting into the over 556 hours of content needed to make the mighty nein pages.

Like Bambu said Critical Role is canon to D&D in fact it has been cannon since Descent into Avernus in 2019. as well it has 2 official books printed. we just don't have pages since it would require the person making them to sit through 447 hours of content, on top of one shots, the talk show, the animated show, and the comics just to make Vax machina pages. this is not getting into the over 556 hours of content needed to make the mighty nein pages.

Hows it canon

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Characters from Critical Role have moved to other settings (Arkhan exists in the Forgotten Realms and is the same Arkhan as Exandria's), it has multiple sourcebooks published by WotC that make it a canon, established setting- these sourcebooks explicitly mention the first two adventuring groups and their actions.

I have no intention to create the pages, Critical Role is severely overhyped, but it is sufficiently backed up to get pages if someone were dedicated enough.

Probably enough discussion about it on the SCP chat, though.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Characters from Critical Role have moved to other settings (Arkhan exists in the Forgotten Realms and is the same Arkhan as Exandria's), it has multiple sourcebooks published by WotC that make it a canon, established setting- these sourcebooks explicitly mention the first two adventuring groups and their actions.

I have no intention to create the pages, Critical Role is severely overhyped, but it is sufficiently backed up to get pages if someone were dedicated enough.

Probably enough discussion about it on the SCP chat, though.

Is there a blog that explains it?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Why did the thread that deleted SCP-1440's spear use Empty Nights as support when it doesn't even mention SCP-231-7?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Because it proves that 1440 couldn't have fought the Scarlet King since The Brothers finally offered him death. Hence, it could have only been 231-7 since that was the consistent portrayal.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Because it proves that 1440 couldn't have fought the Scarlet King since The Brothers finally offered him death. Hence, it could have only been 231-7 since that was the consistent portrayal.

Empty Nights seems inconsistent with both When We Came Home and the more recent The Real Adventures in Capitalism. The reasoning seems to be that because 1440 finally went with the All-Death, he couldn't have shown up to the final battle. However, in the version where 231-7 takes his place, 1440 still shows up, just as an observer who loses a game of cards to the Small-Death.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Empty Nights seems inconsistent with both When We Came Home and the more recent The Real Adventures in Capitalism. The reasoning seems to be that because 1440 finally went with the All-Death, he couldn't have shown up to the final battle. However, in the version where 231-7 takes his place, 1440 still shows up, just as an observer who loses a game of cards to the Small-Death.

That doesn't contradict tho. 1440 was just said to have lost a card game. In no way does that say or indicate that he didn't follow the Brothers in Empty Nights.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

That doesn't contradict tho. 1440 was just said to have lost a card game. In no way does that say or indicate that he didn't follow the Brothers in Empty Nights.

Okay, I had a rewrite swapped in to make the section clearer.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Sorry, please ignore

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

The bullshittiest thing I've ever seen r/CharacterRant say is this guy's claim that SCP is one of the weakest verses in fiction, which is a semi-re-run of this earlier post. Can we get something specifically refuting this entire train of logic about reality-fiction transcendence?