Scarlet Weather Rhapsody thoughts

[Yamatohime]

I looked up Tenshi, Yukari and Suika story modes. I found some funny lines...

The first one to defeat Tenshi was Yuyuko but according to Yuyuko's ending it wasn't even duel. The second one was Suika who indirectly suggested for Tenshi to forfeit future fights... The second to the last was Yukari who beated Tenshi senseless while being quite annoyed by Celestial. The last one was Reisen who found heavily beaten up Tenshi (Reisen somehow beated Yukari before that - though by their dialogue it's hinted that Yukari was tired since there were no usual Yukari-like comments).

According to Yukari's story mode she was angry because Tenshi put keystone. This revelation made Yukari's mood drop quite a lot - instead of previous merry-go attitude she started to talk about killing Tenshi. But it's kind of vague why... Yukari's pre-battle dialogue with Tenshi suggested that Yukari was mad because she was thinking that Tenshi was trying to make a foothold for Celestials. Interesting...

Yukari's way of thinking was actualy supported by Reisen's ending where Eirin said that the Nawi clan once ruled the Earth via... Keystones! Additionaly Eirin suggested that Tenshi's actions can be actualy Celestials plot to regain authority over the Earth (hinting that Celestials first need to conquer Gensoukyou). It was lighlty hinted that Celestials can actualy match Lunarians in battles (probably via their insane artifacts) - Tenshi is probably not the case though.

So I think that Yukari was seriously mad at Tenshi because she probably thought that Tenshi was trying to steal her Haven. It means that Yukari was serious when fighting Celestial and fought at her best.

That's why I suggest to upgrade Tenshi's durability to Yukari's AP level.

 

[DontTalk]

As said it is for all purpose a spellcard battle and through such limited power wise. One pupose of spellcard battles was that even serious conflicts could be solved without serious violence. Actually a fight without spellcard rules would cause a huge uproar in gensokyo, because the agreement is of such a nature that if one party doesn' follow it all would stop following it. So given that it didn't seem to be a relevant topic after the fight it is additionally unlikely.

If Yukari would have gone serious she would also not have stopped after beating tenshi. A beaten opponent is all the easier to kill.

Not to mention that if the whole battle was serious then how would tenshi be beaten if yukari can not hurt her? If she can hurt her on the other hand she could also kill her. Which she didn't so this is a contradiction to the thesis.

 

[Andykhang]

^Sometime you forgot there're actual politic in Gensokyo, huh?

 

[Aurugermil]

Additionaly Eirin suggested that Tenshi's actions can be actualy Celestials plot to regain authority over the Earth (hinting that Celestials first need to conquer Gensoukyou) . It was lighlty hinted that Celestials can actualy match Lunarians in battles (probably via their insane artifacts)

It is Nawi clan, not all Celestials. Eirin notes that Tenshi must be a Nawi, and that Nawi used to rule the earth with their ability and the fact one's appeared with a keystone may mean they're trying to regain their influence.

But where is this hint that Celestials can match Lunarians come from?

 

[Yamatohime]

Spell Card rules do not forbid to use extensive fire power (even though it's not fairplay). Additionaly by Yukari's ending - the Shrine was probably collateral.

If Yukari would have gone serious she would also not have stopped after beating tenshi. A beaten opponent is all the easier to kill.

Well, it seems by Yukari's dialogue with Reisen is that she regained her senses (if the Player loses it's revealed that Yukari and Suika investigating the keystone). There is small probability that she was stopped by Suika too (who is not moron). Celestials after Yukari's ass would be the end for Gensoukyou.

But where is this hint that Celestials can match Lunarians come from?

It was not directly hinted but slightly hinted basing that Nawi clan reproducing the power (at lower extent) that once destroyed all life on Earth. Additionaly Eirin asked to look after Celestial... Meaning that she knew how troublesome Celestials can be...

 

[DontTalk]

Spellcard rules still forbid killing IIRC (immortals not included, because you can't kill them).

In other words the breaking of spellcard rules problem is still there.


And spellcard rules do limit power in that all spellcards are only as powerful as they have elegance. In other words if yukari can not make her attacks more elegant she can also not bring out higher power.

The very concept of the spellcard rules is that deciding a fight based on strength is unacceptable, hence strength can not be an advantage. So no, in spellcard duels you can not gain an advantage through power and yukaris strength in spellcard duels is fixed (spellcards have to be prepared and fixed before battle, hence she can not vary in how she uses them just like that).


And if she had a change of mind than she might as well have a change of mind before the fight started. Her dialogue before the fight doesn't indicate such an intention after all.

 

[Yamatohime]

Spellcard rules still forbid killing IIRC (immortals not included, because you can't kill them).
In other words the breaking of spellcard rules problem is still there.

Actualy by how Celestials described... Yukari can't permanently kill Celestial. Even weakling like Tenshi...

 

[DontTalk]

I have not noticed any claims of the celestials that they could not be killed, or at least none that aren't completly up to how you want to interpret them.

 

[Yamatohime]

Celestials are "immortal" as long as their soul intact and doesn't dragged to other side of Sanzu.

 

[DontTalk]

Was that mentioned anywhere? I heard immortality claims, but only considered them in term of old age.

Not that it changes anything, given that it is still a spellcard duel so in other words yukari is bound to her usual power limit as explained above and as also mentioned we don't know when she even decided not to kill tenshi. The whole idea of making losing to a character a durability feat is very dubious actually.

 

[Yamatohime]

So Mokou and Kaguya should have their dura to be changed to... At most City level... Since they were both killed as far as I remember. After all power output is fixed.

Celestials do not age by default. Their ages are probably stagnate at ages when they got their status.

Celestials like Tenshi can be killed by Reaper class shinigami via soul extraction... If they manage to beat them enough. It is actualy the only way to kill Celestials that mentioned.

 

[Aurugermil]

snip

^This. PMISS said that Celestials are free from the circle of transmigration. But according to Komachi Onozuka, celestials are not truly immortal. Instead, they manage to defeat the shinigami that comes to collect their souls on a routine basis, continually extending their lifespan.

Then this is the page about Kishin from thwiki:

In the Touhou Project, kishin are powerful youkai who reside in Hell. Each kishin chief commands a number of lesser oni in their torment of the souls who fall into Hell, utilizing a wide array of torture devices. When a Hermit or Celestial has lived too long a kishin chief is sent to assassinate them, though most of the living believe that the assassin is a Shinigami due to misinformation they have spread.

So Kishin (Youkai) > Celestials.

 

[DontTalk]

"So Mokou and Kaguya should have their dura to be changed to... At most City level... Since they were both killed as far as I remember. After all power output is fixed."

What makes you think we have any idea how strong reimu etc. danmaku shots are? FYI we don't know how strong they are, we on the other hand can most realistically claim that kaguya can take hits from cirno without dying...

 

[Aurugermil]

What's the base argument that we need to change Kaguya and Mokou dura?

ZUN stated in an interview that Kaguya was planned to debut as a playable character in Hisoutensoku, but was scrapped from the lineup due to time constraints. He said that her moveset as initially designed would have been overpowered and unbalanced the game and there was not enough time to properly balance her strength against the other characters (ironically the same issue was encountered with Mokou, who was also intended to be playable in the game). This seems to suggest that Kaguya and Mokou > Tenshi.

 

[Yamatohime]

Stop... DT, you claimed that SCs has fixed ppwer output. Alice and Youmu has City level dura and still alive... Cirno is killed every rime. So Mokou (for sure) and Kaguya (need to look at it because her downgrade will mean downgrade to all Lunarians in base) at most City level. Stick has two end after all.

 

[Aurugermil]

I think the issue with Mokou and Kaguya is that they didn't use Spell Card rule afterall when they fought with each other to death.

 

[Yamatohime]

What's the base argument that we need to change Kaguya and Mokou dura?

ZUN stated in an interview that Kaguya was planned to debut as a playable character in Hisoutensoku, but was scrapped from the lineup due to time constraints. He said that her moveset as initially designed would have been overpowered and unbalanced the game and there was not enough time to properly balance her strength against the other characters (ironically the same issue was encountered with Mokou, who was also intended to be playable in the game). This seems to suggest that Kaguya and Mokou > Tenshi.

It is all about game mechanics. How to implement their immortaliry wo breaking game.

 

[Yamatohime]

I think the issue with Mokou and Kaguya is that they didn't use Spell Card rule afterall when they fought with each other to death.

Mokou was killed during such duel by players for sure.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Spell Cards can hurt and even kill, but the chances of it ocorruing are far less than in direct combat. It exists more to give limitations, be them in potency or time, to the fighters abilities.

 

[Yamatohime]

@MS, yeah. That is true. But we slightly derailed because it was said that SCs have fixed output.

 

[DontTalk]

Strictly speaking it can very well be like it currently is, given that durability has a certain vagueness in its definition. Basically a character with much higher durability can be harmed by a huge amount of attacks from lower Attack potency. Basically an attack that can be tanked hundred times by a character would by us be similar considered for durability as an attack that can be tanked just 2 times.

That said I recede from my prior statement. It isn't what can be strictly speaking be derived from the facts.

The facts are that a spellcard in its form, aka pattern, is predetermined and that a spellcard can only be as powerful as it is elegant / as it has meaning / as it is beautiful. Another thing is that a spellcard duel is a competition that should not be won by the more powerful one. Everyone has equal chances be it humans, youkai, lunarians or even crickets.

In other words all battles are equilzed in one way or another. A win by being superior in brute power is not possible. That means against a weak opponent weaker attacks must be chosen, else the battle is not a spellcard battle and a spellcard has a upper limit on its power, as it can not be more powerful than its pattern holds elegance / is beautiful / has meaning.

In other words I highly doubt that any spellcard would demonstrate direct attack potency (indirect like moving a star without throwing it at someone might be a thing) of an extent as great as suika destroying the heavens or something.


So that much on that topic. The point that we actually don't know when yukari decided to not kill Tenshi (if we trust on that being yukaris initial intent) is also still there.

 

[Yamatohime]

Yeah, variable damage output is more believable. But I think Yukari should have used her full power or at least great extent because Hisou no Tsurugi can absorb majority of damage if Tenshi is really pressed. And she was still really knocked out and hurt badly (according her dialogue with Reisen). Yukari was kind of tired too (though it can be that battle was quite long).

 

[Andykhang]

^Wait, i remember that sword could drain power from the opponent, but i never remember that it could absord damage?

 

[Yamatohime]

^Wait, i remember that sword could drain power from the opponent, but i never remember that it could absord damage?

It can grant Tenshi absurd level of durability nicknamed as "Super Armor". Additionaly it no sells Sakuya's Time Stop ability as well (or maybe I was bad with spell cards during Boss Fight).

 

[Andykhang]

^Probably the second one, cus you don't normally associate dura with spacetime (unless you compress the space around you to have object moved as near-cosmological distance between two near point like in Mondaiji)

 

[Yamatohime]

Well, about Time Stop - I was speaking about Hisou general ability to mess with characters ability to some degree. =)

 

[Andykhang]

^Oh yeah, through weather pattern.

 

[Yamatohime]

So can I change Tenshi durability?

 

[Andykhang]

^You have to ask the mod for that. And just keep it like before. You can't know much just from play after all.

 

[DontTalk]

I still am against it, out of the already named reasons.

Tenshi being serious doesn't mean that yukari can be.

And as said we don't even know if yukari had during the fight an intent to kill, given that she seemingly at some point decided that she doesn't want to.

 

[Yamatohime]

I think Yukari was forced to withdraw because the more Tenshi was wounded the more poisonous enviroment became for youkais.

P.S.: Still, I think it was Hisou super armor that saved Tenshi's ass in the end.

 

[Andykhang]

^If so, then a live Celestial should be more harmful than a death one. And if it's so, no way she could just walk in even into the human village.

And it's more like the Spell Card Rule that Yukari made everyone unconciously follow it save both them and Gensokyo's ass.

 

[Yamatohime]

^If so, then a live Celestial should be more harmful than a death one. And if it's so, no way she could just walk in even into the human village.

Celestials are poisonous to youkais. That's why they have advantage versus them.

By I still think that Hisou "super armor" can temporary give Tenshi Moon level durability.

 

[Andykhang]

^Who know though, at least i imagine smashing an entire continent to her in that mode isn't going to faze her.