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Sasuke Uchiha vs. Ikki Kurogane

That doesn't answer my question, how often does Sasuke lead with Genjutsu, because if he doesn't lead with it in character then we have an actual fight on out hands, because Ikki can perfect vision and precog it and learn to close his eyes. Also Ikki's heat/fire resistance is Large Mountain Level+ scaling off of Stella as well as Core of the Sun levels of heat so Amatrasu shouldn't be an issue for Ikki.

No, but perfect vision would give him the info needed to figure out how to counter genjutsu by closing his eyes, and Ikki is easily skilled enough to fight unhindered without his sight.
Bruh, Heat doesn't translate to AP anymore and Amaterasu is literally described as hotter than the Sun + it literally burns flames out of existence (they don't get EE'D but they do disappear) and he has no way of countering it, let alone the Susano'o if he then coats it in an Amaterasu Shield like he did against the Fourth Raikage.
 
That doesn't answer my question, how often does Sasuke lead with Genjutsu, because if he doesn't lead with it in character then we have an actual fight on out hands, because Ikki can perfect vision and precog it and learn to close his eyes. Also Ikki's heat/fire resistance is Large Mountain Level+ scaling off of Stella as well as Core of the Sun levels of heat so Amatrasu shouldn't be an issue for Ikki.

No, but perfect vision would give him the info needed to figure out how to counter genjutsu by closing his eyes, and Ikki is easily skilled enough to fight unhindered without his sight.
Did you read my replay even? They use it in all their fights, it's one of their main arsenal and yes it's usually his starting move unless his oppoeont has a counter for it.

I am gonna be honest, this whole "perfect vision" isn't something that I buy and I am gonna need exact quote with context to buy it cuz it seems like wank.
The setting of both series is very different and from what I understand the abillty in question is used to anaylze one fighting stance and history of the body, his eyes abilltes are literally thing that just pops out from his eyes and even if Ikki can see the flow of chakra in his body, he has absoultey no way of knowing how it works or how to avoid it cuz he had no such knowldge to begin with.

The stuff that are spitted here make it seems like he can literally hack your mind and read everything about you.
Bring me one example where he anaylyze and understand/counter an abillty that he never seen in his life just by looking at one guy and I am willing to belive you.
 
Bruh, Heat doesn't translate to AP anymore and Amaterasu is literally described as hotter than the Sun + it literally burns flames out of existence (they don't get EE'D but they do disappear) and he has no way of countering it, let alone the Susano'o if he then coats it in an Amaterasu Shield like he did against the Fourth Raikage.
Ikki resists Stella's flames which is literal Heat based EE plus hotter than the sun is vague as hell as the temperature of the sun varies wildly from thousands to the millions, where as the core of the sun statement is straight forward.

Since when? Heat doesn't negate Durability so yes you need comparable AP to damage someone with heat otherwise I could argue Natsu Dragneel claps Zeno based on heat alone which is dumb.
Did you read my replay even? They use it in all their fights, it's one of their main arsenal and yes it's usually his starting move unless his oppoeont has a counter for it.
Give me one scan of EMS Sasuke starting a fight with Genjutsu and I'll conceed, if you can't produce one then what move does Sasuke usually start fights with.
I am gonna be honest, this whole "perfect vision" isn't something that I buy and I am gonna need exact quote with context to buy it cuz it seems like wank.
The setting of both series is very different and from what I understand the abillty in question is used to anaylze one fighting stance and history of the body, his eyes abilltes are literally thing that just pops out from his eyes and even if Ikki can see the flow of chakra in his body, he has absoultey no way of knowing how it works or how to avoid it cuz he had no such knowldge to begin with.

The stuff that are spitted here make it seems like he can literally hack your mind and read everything about you.
Bring me one example where he anaylyze and understand/counter an abillty that he never seen in his life just by looking at one guy and I am willing to belive you.

I already said I'm playing Devils Advocate here, I don't know much about the verse other than the anime which only covers the first arc of the series, I know nothing about the Light Novels and am just using what's already on Ikki's profile so don't complain to me about it. If you have a problem with something on the profiles then you need to either debunk it with a crt or find someone knowledgeable about the verse to explain how the ability works because I can't provide that info for you.
 
Because there was an entire Site-Wide CRT that got rid of Heat being AP and it is now treated like Dura Neg. Ask literally any Staff Member here and they'll tell you the same thing.
 
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Because there was an entire Site-Wide CRT that got rid of Heat being AP and it is now treated like Dura Neg. Ask literally any Staff Member here and they'll tell you the same thing.
Heat is dura neg on a case by case basis, this isn't always the case
 
Give me one scan of EMS Sasuke starting a fight with Genjutsu and I'll conceed, if you can't produce one then what move does Sasuke usually start fights with.
EMS Sasuke lasted a really short while and never got the chance to use it, although it is in his character to use Genjutsu as a back up in every fight.
Here:


And here:

I already said I'm playing Devils Advocate here
The burden of the proof is one the one making the claim, such bold claim need direct proofs and literally nothing on Ikki's profile proves any of the claims.
 
EMS Sasuke lasted a really short while and never got the chance to use it, although it is in his character to use Genjutsu as a back up in every fight.
The first one is New Era Sasuke which isn't relevant to this discussion.

Sasuke didn't even lead with Genjutsu in the second fight, he lead with Chidori.

I'm not saying that Sasuke never uses Genjutsu but there's a difference between the starting move and move that is used regularly.
The burden of the proof is one the one making the claim, such bold claim need direct proofs and literally nothing on Ikki's profile proves any of the claims.
Ikki's profile mentions this:

(He can predict what an opponent will do next by muscle movements. Furthermore, he can predict actions, thoughts, and emotions through perfect vision; "his ability to expose and reflect the true nature of everything he sees" if he had finished observing an opponent he knows the possibility of how they will act due to the system they follow)

(All of Ikki's senses are enhanced to the point where he can feel every grain of dust hit his skin, can see every strand of someone's hair mid-fight, can find the speed and location of something just from hearing it, hear the blood flow of something and more. Furthermore he has an extreme awareness of everything around him, where he doesn't even need sense things that enter his range and has the "Samurai's Sixth Sense")

(Perfect Vision allows Ikki to completely grasp an opponent's identity understanding everything about them and knowing and predicting their every thought, action and feeling; Ikki's eye is remarkably perceptive as such he noticed Amane was not normal, Stella was not just talented but also a hard worker, learned the secret technique of Ayase Ayatsuji's father just by looking at her sword stance, noticed Kurado's reflex speed was faster than normal and more)

(Ikki has full control over his body and mind this allows him to understand, replicate and perfect things he cannot even perceive such as Edelweiss' sword style and Trackless Step)

So yes as per the profile he could understand how Genjutsu works and the counters for it.
 
Hasn't this been unanimously agreed to be a stomp for sasufag? I'd appreciate it if this was closed.
 
You know, this fight would be a lot cooler to imagine if it was them starting off with their swords. Bit of Trackless Step vs Sharingan action, some Katon & Raiton here and there, Susanoo vs Ittou Shura (if that’s what it’s called), etc...

My vote is still on Sasuke though.
 
I'm not saying that Sasuke never uses Genjutsu but there's a difference between the starting move and move that is used regularly.
It's in his character to use it whenever he sees fit and used it in almost every fight he had, Ikki being more skilled than Sasuke isn't something I buy either.
Both are master swordmen and both have Prog so Ikki has no edge in that department. You whole argument relies on Ikki somehow one shotting Sasuke which is very unlikely and subjective at best.

Sasuke can use Amaterasu and burn him to death or he could cover himself with Amaterasu and Ikki won't be able to touch him + he's always vulnerable to Genjitsu.

So yes as per the profile he could understand how Genjutsu works and the counters for it.
Again. Nonsense without a source or context. So if you put Ikki in front of a higher dimensional being he will understand their nature and history?
Provide evidence and prove that he can counter an abillty he has absoultey no knowldge or background about then we talk.This can be interpreted in several ways and your take in hardly the only one to do so.

Sasuke has many ways to win this, meanwhile the other side will just meme about "skills"
 
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Alright now, just because he was wanked does not mean you should rocket to the other side and downplay as hell.

Yeah, genjutsu would probably **** him up, given Sasuke doesn't try a sleeping or knock-out one like Madara did.


However, Ikki is more skilled. His precognition is superior (knows what others will do before even they know it), his power mimicry is superior (makes the skills mimicked superior, can just correctly guess the full technique even if the one he is copying only has a portion of it, etc. Although, he cannot copy magic like Sasuke), his info analysis is superior (Knows the weaknesses, thoughts, power, etc. of enemies by glancing at them). If he and Sasuke didn't use any powers and only fought with a sword, Ikki would win... if their stats were similar.

Even then, his "skill" superpowers like him just throwing back the energy of your attacks by maneuvering, or him just moving in a way that pushes him into your unconscious, and many others, would still make Sasuke break a sweat to kill him without his jutsu.


In this battle, he could even win if Sasuke doesn't use the powers that would one-shot Ikki, like Amaterasu or genjutsu. If he decides to go with chidori, or a fireball, Ikki will have time to just info analyse, realize he's out of his league here, and stat amp himself into one-shotting.
 
You brought nothing new,

>His precognition is superior (knows what others will do before even they know it)
That is literally what Sharengan do

>his power mimicry is superior
Sure

>Knows the weaknesses, thoughts, power, etc. of enemies by glancing at them).
Again, vague.
To what extent can he read? Can anayze an abillty he never seen in his life? What abot abilltes that doesn't use swords?

Sasuke is also pretty intelligent and cool headed and able to analyze and figure out his opponents tricks and fightstyle pretty quickly, he will also analyze Ikki's style and figure out the best approch for the battle just as his oppoent is doing so.

Sasuke has several ways to end the battle for sure, meanwhile worse Kirito has to be given the beinf of the doubt and write a script around the fight so he doesn't get one shotted.

Sasuke takes this~
 
You brought nothing new,

>His precognition is superior (knows what others will do before even they know it)
That is literally what Sharengan do
It is not. Even though it allows a person to do what the enemy wanted to in advance, it cannot do so to the extent of them not even knowing they were going to do it.
>Knows the weaknesses, thoughts, power, etc. of enemies by glancing at them).
Again, vague.
To what extent can he read? Can anayze an abillty he never seen in his life? What abot abilltes that doesn't use swords?
Not particularly vague, no. He can read minds. Just outright, his observation is so good that he knows what you are thinking. He does analyze techniques he's never used, it wouldn't even be mimicry if he's simply expanding a skill he already had. And he can mimic things like footwork, and things like trackless step are considered part of the "skill" category that people as skilled as him can see through, so as long as its physical and he can do it, he should be fine with copying it.
Sasuke is also pretty intelligent and cool headed and able to analyze and figure out his opponents tricks and fightstyle pretty quickly,
That is... not comparable to just learning a family technique when the person you are copying hasn't even learned the majority of the technique. Sharingan precognitions is good, but beyond that Sasuke's skill in battle isn't outright supernatural. He can't look at the Rasengan, and then just understand it was being prepared to get an elemental transformation and figure out the Rasenshuriken.

he will also analyze Ikki's style and figure out the best approch for the battle just as his oppoent is doing so.
Now that is a baseless assumption. If you meant to my theoretical "battle without other powers", no. Stella is a level-headed, talented fighter who observes others and fights accordingly, 90% of the opponents he fights are. What Sasuke can do isn't that special at all. He is skilled, but besides his eyeballs he isn't skilled to the extent of being unbelievable.

But if you mean with powers, that's not how it goes, because a hundred-time speed amp means as soon as Ikki understands Sasuke is way stronger, he will go in and one-shot. It's not a battle where he can afford to take his time and analyze.

Sasuke has several ways to end the battle for sure, meanwhile worse Kirito has to be given the beinf of the doubt and write a script around the fight so he doesn't get one shotted.
The amount of ways one can win a fight doesn't particularly matter as opposed to how easily they are attainable.

So really, let's go through them,

Amaterasu. It's not an instant kill move, if Ikki gets hit, he will use Shoura. The only way he doesn't kill Sasuke first in that case is if he gets hit in the head or legs with it.

Genjutsu is a fine way to do it, but Sasuke doesn't spam it at all, and even if he does there is very much the potential he goes for one that knocks out the opponent. After all, why would he misdirect them when he can as easily knock them unconscious and spare himself the effort of stabbing them to win? If he does that, then Ikki just keeps fighting as if nothing happened.

If he uses Chidori, Ikki simply stat amps and cuts his throat faster than he can dodge.

If he uses fireballs, from a twenty-meter distance, Ikki gets plenty time to stat amp.

If he tries to set up Kirin, he just gets killed before he gets it off.

If he goes for a sword strike, Ikki can deflect stuff a tier higher than Itachi, and just amp as soon as he feels how strong he is.

Shuriken and kunai are something that both can predict too well to be useful for anything but a distraction, a stealth attack, or to test the waters.


For all Ikki has one way to kill Sasuke, a hundredfold stat amp in speed and strength both is one hell of a way to do it. The fact that he can do it on thought means that Sasuke has to either catch him off guard - and Ikki has outright spider sense - or that he needs to hit Ikki with something that he can't react to, which are a well placed Amaterasu or the correct kind of genjutsu.



I know people are eager to knock down the meme, same way they enjoyed the idea of Dragon Ball being stronger than Demonbane and the like, but Sasuke isn't going through this with an "is this a stomp?". If he starts off with the wrong power, he dies.
 
Sasuke being more skilled than Ikki is a meme. Also it's not exactly classy to talk smack about an inactive user, most of yall wouldn't even say that if said user were present in this thread.


Sasuke starting with Genjutsu is also flat out wrong. He's never lead a fight with using it right off the bat aside from circumstantial events.
 
I'm tryna figure out if this should be added or not, looks like a stomp
 
I mean, I'd appreciate if people aknowledged new arguments?

Sasuke cannot deal with a hundred fold stat amp in his enemies.

He does not start with genjutsu, and him being Uchiha does not somehow scale his fighting style to other Uchiha (and even then, how many names Uchiha start with genjutsu more often than not? Only a single comes to mind for me...).

And even then, what if he uses a knock out genjutsu and just ends up still skewered? I'm also pretty sure Ikki's sixth sense should still work fine if led astray by illusions, but I'm not sure if anything like that did happen in the novel. It's been a long time since.

Whether he'd use aamaterasu faster than Ikki realizes he is stronger is... doubtful, I think. Whether he'd aim for the head, instead of doing something like with Obito and aiming at a not immediately lethal location makes it even less likely.
 
A grace period can be negated if the votes even out or if said votes aren't legitimate in the first place.

Also can Ikki ya know, aim dodge the Genjutsu with his precog from Perfect Vision?
 
The idea of Sasuke being more skilled than Ikki is the best entertainment I've had all week.

Ricsi summarised it best honestly. I'm going with Ikki here.
 
After reading everything, Risci's reasons makes more sense, so I vote for Ikki FRA.
 
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