Sargeras being severly downplayed.

[Abstract101]

Hello everyone,I hope you all are having a good day,I just want to discuss Sargeras' tier and ranking in this wiki which by the looks of it,is seriously in need of revision so I'll be mentioning reasons as to why he needs a boost.

I'll be using the mardum feat to demonstrate his op reality warping powers,so just sit back and enjoy the show.

First of all,let me begin with the nether's description:

"There are a thousand ways to perceive it, every voyager sees the Nether differently, depending on circumstance, form, and state of mind. Illidan projecting his spirit into the Nether saw it as a black, airless void in which a billion stars twinkled, and behind and beneath him blazed the world from which he had come. A snake of energy leading out into infinity represented the flow of energy of the portals the Burning Legion use."

"he Nether though separate from the physical universe still has physical objects,[8] such as planets. It transcends all realities[9] and is normally imperceptible to mortals.[3] Those that enter the Nether rarely return.[10] Time passes differently deep inside the Twisting Nether, and it is impossible to tell whether days, years, or centuries have passed.[11] Turalyon and Alleria have fought in the Nether for "ages" from their perspective, while on Azeroth it has been only a few decades."

So as was confirmed(https://twitter.com/Alex_Afrasiabi/status/607225634301952000)

The twisting nether should be a 9D plane as it stretches through all realities,which all contain all infinite variables of 7d worlds that are connected,as 7d is reality.

(WC also has infinite possibilities for every universe as seen from Vandel the demon hunter's dream in the Illidan novel)

Some people now might be thinking "fair enough,but he only warped it into a planet it's no big feat",this is where things get intersting...While it was indeed warped into a planet,Sargeras actually warped the laws of the nether itself,since as wow fans here probably know,demons respawn in the twisting nether after death(outside the nether) and can only be killed inside of it,Sargeras just lol nopes them all and changes the nether's properties as so demons respawn in mardum rather than the nether and continue to terrorize the great dark.

All in all,Sargeras' reality warping should be at the very least reality level to perform such a feat,If interested we can discuss this further.

Note:just because Sargeras performed 7d+ feats or so does not make him a 7D being,which is obvious.

Hope you enjoyed and do leave your opinions about it.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Source for the 7-D thing?

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

I always wondered how guys like Archimonde alone could be above Reality. Seem's too ******* badass for us Mortal's with Magical/Godly Empowered Swords/Bows/Guns to handle.

 

[AntorusTheBurningThrone]

"The Nether transends all realities"

That tweet still ***** my head over to this day.

 

[Abstract101]

Source for the 7-D thing?

I gave the source from alex,and even the current profile for him mentions him creating mardum from the energies of the nether,which trascends all realities...so as i explained he basically changes a law inside a plane that trascends all realities.

 

[Abstract101]

I always wondered how guys like Archimonde alone could be above Reality. Seem's too ******* badass for us Mortal's with Magical/Godly Empowered Swords/Bows/Guns to handle.

Well the backstory for the scepter of Sargeras states it has the side effects of collapsing the physical universe,the demon hunter class leader also literally rips a hole in reality,since the fel hammer couldn't keep a gateway to the twisting nether open.

 

[Abstract101]

Source for the 7-D thing?

https://imgur.com/lzljEHV

 

[Abstract101]

I always wondered how guys like Archimonde alone could be above Reality. Seem's too ******* badass for us Mortal's with Magical/Godly Empowered Swords/Bows/Guns to handle.

Well,Sargeras' feats are just crazy if you analyze them well enough to understand...Same with deathwing,Nozdormu and if you scale kil'jaedan and archimonde from the avatar of Sargeras.

 

[Antvasima]

I will ask Myriadofmemes and KinkiestSins to comment here.

 

[KinkiestSins]

No.

Okay, I will concede that the twisting nether is 'Infinite'

But A. This is a twitter comment, I dont think this is indictive of anything.

We have many WoG statements of twitter we dont accept because it is an outlier or isn't logically consistent.. Unless you provide me a more reliable source other then twitter like say an interview. I will not accept this in its current state.


B. Even if we did take this as truth, where is the 7-D coming from? In all seriousness, that can be 5-D or 1-A. The link you posted seems to be to just be alternate universes.

Although in the your defense, Illidan did close many of these portals, but they function kinda similar to alternate universes then other 'dimensions'

I guess one thing to add that might be relevant to this conversation is that the twisting nether is neither void or creation, but a universe in between the two

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Twisting_Nether

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Dimensional_gateway

TLDR: Twisting Nether is indeed another dimension, but not in our sense. It is just another infinite universe in the wowverse, this is common in fiction. It is probably at the very best a fifth dimensional universe in between creation, but even then that is speculation on my part.

Even Myriad clarified this in Sargera's page, Ant, so I am sure he will comment something similar.

Edit: Also just noticed the last part. Sargeras does indeed have reality warping on a universal scale at least. I will give OP that.

 

[Antvasima]

I obviously agree about that we do not allow Twitter comments as evidence.

Why should he have reality warping on a universal scale, and is it of the 3-A, High 3-A, or Low 2-C variety?

 

[KinkiestSins]

I obviously agree about that we do not allow Twitter comments as evidence.
Why should he have reality warping on a universal scale, and is it of the 3-A, High 3-A, or Low 2-C variety?

Well both Sargera's and Argus were capable of warping the reality of the twisting nether, which is infinite.

I belive though, going back the original thread that the reason why we dont accept it as any of the following is because it didn't say he warped 'all of reality' just 'vast stretches of reality'

At best it is 3-A.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, vast stretches of reality could just be 3-B as well. It is hard to quantify.

 

[Abstract101]

Actually the "vast stretches" thing is not what i'm talking about,that's the battle with the pantheon...I mean the creation of mardum,which is basically changing the laws of the nether.

 

[Abstract101]

Like even if we take the trascends all realities as trascending all timelines,the timelines are infinite in wow(I'll try to find a pdf version of the illidan novel as scan to show) and the twisting nether still trascends them all,yet Sargeras managed to change it's properties so that demons no longer respawn there but in Mardum.

 

[Abstract101]

And the "trascends all realities" came after Archimonde returned in WoD to showcase that there exists only one legion across all realities,so no alternate versions of the legion's followers.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Well, vast stretches of reality could just be 3-B as well. It is hard to quantify.

I think 3-B is fine.

It clearly states in his second key that stars were withered and that vast stretches were 'scarred'.

Honestly, I don't know how he got the tier, but I trust his judgement. I do think though personally if I made the page with this feat in mind, it would qualify as Low 2-C.

Although it has been described as 'timeless'

You also cant conventially enter it like you could other parallel universes, so point for OP but it still on paper acts like another universe.

The only modification is that people don't 'walk' in the twisting nether, they just wish to be there and they are there.

Sounds like to be Sargeras in the twisting nether should probably be 'Infinite' in speed.

But that is it.

@Abstract

Transcending all reality, it is still very loosely tied in the multiverse as a whole so it is unlikely it is not higher then 4-D.

If it was, then anyone from the twisting nether would be able to effect the WoW multverse below and do what they want from it. Many of the demons from the twisting nether HATE the WoW universe and want to take it over, burn it or do whatever.

They would not need to do so if it was truly 5-D or higher, they just would.

I just think this is just flowery language.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Also wanna add that the WoW books have different authors and some have different views on reality/dimensions etc then we do.

 

[Abstract101]

Actually,the legion's plan is not to destroy the wow universe,but to rid it of all life so that no void lord can manifest inside of it...And as we can see from the scepter of sargeras' background,he never intended to destroy azeroth but to claim the world soul for his own.

Another thing aswell,the twisting nether does not function similiarly to a normal universe as we can see from the illidan novel...

"It exploded into being around him.

There were a thousand ways to perceive this place. Every voyager saw it differently, depending on circumstance and form and state of mind. For him it was a black, airless void in which a billion stars twinkled. Behind and beneath him blazed the world from which he had come. Through the void trailed the snake of energy he had summoned, guiding him outward into infinity.""

 

[Abstract101]

Also wanna add that the WoW books have different authors and some have different views on reality/dimensions etc then we do.

Most of that was retconned with chronicles.

 

[KinkiestSins]

point stands.

Generally speaking, if they were 5-D they would have rid all life by now and the only thing stopping them would be PIS or Author Induced Stupidity.

Author Induced Stupidity just means we don't accept this like 3-A devil may cry.

Plot Induced Stupidity just means we dont accept this on the grounds of 'common sense'

 

[KinkiestSins]

5-D beings are infinitely beyond 4-D beings and so on and so on.

I am tempted just to chalk this up to flowery language, but I will see what Myriad thinks.

 

[Abstract101]

The legion apparently conquered all worlds with only azeroth left,I'm trying to find the demon that mentions that in legion.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Please don't quote long texts.

But check here: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Burning_Legio

WoW wiki is actually pretty concise.

 

[Abstract101]

Please don't quote long texts.
But check here: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Burning_Legio

WoW wiki is actually pretty concise.

Wowpedia is a better source of info as it is updated regularly,and with more details.

 

[Abstract101]

This is from the Illidan novel and I quote " "This time he saw not just one universe but a near infinity of them, a complex fractal structure, where new worlds were born each minute from the decisions made a heartbeat before. Everywhere the Burning Legion marched, destroying world after world. Every death narrowed the range of possible worlds, till eventually all the multitude of possibilities narrowed to but a few."

https://gyazo.com/8074bbcd330c3bc92e85fd7cd4f5093f

 

[KinkiestSins]

Then I will wait for Myriad on this one.

I know we had Sargeras at 2-A before, which would probably be this post in a nutshell.

But still not 7-D.

 

[Bepo4151]

The legion apparently conquered all worlds with only azeroth left,I'm trying to find the demon that mentions that in legion.

They are setting up invasion points on planets that are not Azeroth tho. Clearly, they haven't conquered everything. Also, Star Augur Etraeus shows us planets that are infested with old gods Sargeras would not let that happen on his conquered planets.

 

[Abstract101]

And there is also this from the scepter of Sargeras' background and I quote "Such an instrument would also weaken the integrity of the physical universe and threaten to collapse it, but Sargeras considered those to be only side benefits."

The scepter of Sargeras is an artifact forged by Sargeras that could collapse the physical universe,yet in all it's might it could only open a rift to let a portion of his soul through,which is the avatar of Sargeras.

 

[KinkiestSins]

World = Planet in WoW speak.

I think Bepo makes sense here.

 

[Abstract101]

Hmm,indeed...The old god thing makes sense.

As for 2-A i think that is fine,as the twitter post from Alex was not taken into account.

But he is definetly above multi galaxy tho.

 

[KinkiestSins]

The problem is, we have had three wow discussions in the past (I admitedly am the last person to take part in the revisions)

Myriad is honestly the person to talk to here about this.

With your link, it would be 2-B since he stated 'Near Infinity'

But again, Myriad might have addressed this claim.

 

[Bepo4151]

It was not forged by Sargeras. It was forged by the Eredars.

 

[Abstract101]

Ah I was wrong on that one,but my point still stands tho.

 

[KinkiestSins]

I am going to bed and I will be back later. But I do sincerely believe based on the WoW wiki. If someone can truly be anywhere the please in the Twisting Nether, everyone in the twister nether should at least be 'Infinite' So his new speed would be:

Massively FTL+, Infinite in the Twisting Nether.

 

[Antvasima]

Please avoid quoting long posts. It turns the thread hard to read.

 

[Abstract101]

Please avoid quoting long posts. It turns the thread hard to read.

Ah sorry,my mistake.

 

[Myriadofmemes]

Hi Abstract, I'll start by providing some clarifications first:

The tweet does not imply that the Nether transcends The Great Dark in any higher-dimensional manner, in fact the Nether exhibits the least higher-dimensional properties of all. Instead it's saying that the twisting Nether is not a physical or conceptual proprietary of any particular timeline as it exists as a separate dimensional construct entirely. The Chronicles Volume 1 further backs this by saying that it is only loosely connected to the Great Dark.

As for the physical universe, from the same page in the paragraph up above we can deduce that the conflict between the Light and the Void directly resulted in the creation of the four-dimensional universe that we know as the setting of the franchise. Furthermore it's known that the timeline in which most of the games and books occur is the "prime" timeline. Essentially all alternate realities have the same starting point so while they are nigh-infinite they are very similar in nature. To add to that, unique beings that exist outside of the physical universe and it's timelines (The Void Lords and demons) exert influence on most universes making the similarities between them even bigger.

The big difference between the two dimensional constructs is the timelines. Vandal saw the near infinite divulging timelines of the Great Dark Beyond made from the choices made in the past, that's a nod towards the Many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. On the other hand, the Nether is unique and does not experience this quantum superposition which causes timelines to appear that the Great Dark does. In other words it's a unique four-dimensional construct.

On the topic of the scepter of Sargeras, the staff very much has the property to tear the dimensional fabric of reality apart. However as we've seen from Draenor it took the ley-lines of arcane energy coursing through the planet to destroy the planet itself. In other words it took the scepter the energy of a planet to destroy the planet itself. Sargeras' best showing, with his own power, to date is against the Pantheon which puts him at multi-galaxy levels. So while Sargeras is definitely the most likely candidate for possibly destroying the universe with the scepter it's still unlikely that he can do it on his own. Also, Sargeras doesn't really have the scepter, neither does he opt in to use it himself so it's not really a part of his toolset.

 

[Abstract101]

Hey Myriad,I see your points...however,as for the nether time does pass inside of it,however it is different as inside of it,voyagers might experience millenias of time while outside of it only days to a couple years have actually passed (i.e Alleria and turalyon),Basically everything is twisted,time,space and the laws of physics as I've quoted from the Illidan novel and the demon hunter's experience in the nether,you could say it acts as a hyperspace of sorts.

As for the scepter you missed my point,Seeing as Sargeras,the one who actually ordered it's creation knew it could collapse the universe and no mention of using a planet's powers to do it,we can assume that it's most effective at the hand of it's original wielder,the thing is though...An artifact with the power to potentially collapse the universe could only open a rift to let a very small piece of his being to enter through.

 

[Abstract101]

One more thing I wanna add Myriad,our "prime" timeline is actually an alternate timeline as it has been altered by the old gods sending korialstrasz,Rhonin and Broxigar through a portal in time so that they can free themselves,like in the original war of the ancient hakkar the houndmaster survived the war and was killed in the 3rd war,but in the new timeline he was killed by Malfurion.