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Sargeras being severly downplayed.
- Thread starter Abstract101
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- #42
Fair enough.
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Those two statements about time are contradicting each other. If time is indeed not passing in the Nether at all than Alleria and the army of the Light should not be capable of measuring the thousand years that have, in reality, passed. As observers that are both inside the Nether and outside of it can measure time than time is certainly passing, it's simply going at a different pace. That depictions of time seems to be describing the phenomenon of time dilation very accurately which is something that will occur in any two places with differing gravitational fields where time is being measured.
On the topic of the scepter, Sargeras didn't really know whether it could collapse the universe or not. He only speculated that it could. In practice, even when fully overcharged by the arcane ley-lines of the planet the scepter was only capable of opening enough portals to fragment Draenor into pieces. Assuming that Sargeras operated under the impression that the staff would destroy the universe if pushed to its' limits, it should come to no surprise that he only used it to the point where only a portion of his power was capable of passing through any rift opened by the scepter. After all, we do know that the objective of the Burning Legion isn't to actually destroy the universe but rather to cleanse it of all life.
Likely however, that is not the case and Sargeras' speculation was wrong. In practice the scepter, even when overcharged, did not end up destroying the universe.
On the topic of the scepter, Sargeras didn't really know whether it could collapse the universe or not. He only speculated that it could. In practice, even when fully overcharged by the arcane ley-lines of the planet the scepter was only capable of opening enough portals to fragment Draenor into pieces. Assuming that Sargeras operated under the impression that the staff would destroy the universe if pushed to its' limits, it should come to no surprise that he only used it to the point where only a portion of his power was capable of passing through any rift opened by the scepter. After all, we do know that the objective of the Burning Legion isn't to actually destroy the universe but rather to cleanse it of all life.
Likely however, that is not the case and Sargeras' speculation was wrong. In practice the scepter, even when overcharged, did not end up destroying the universe.
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I see then,fair enough and thanks for the clarification.
Btw,what's your take on the nether's ever changing properties and how every visitor seeing it differently?
Btw,what's your take on the nether's ever changing properties and how every visitor seeing it differently?
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The Nether is a pretty chaotic place. Considering that both fundamental powers, The Light and The Void, have exerted their influence over the astral realm and that the two powers are polar opposites, it really isn't that surprising that The Nether is in a state of constant flux.
Different creatures seeing the Nether differently is so subjective... Even IRL, people with color blindness will perceive the world differently. Then add magic into that and it becomes way too open for interpretation. At the very least user of the different magical schools will perceive the Nether very differently. Those being: Shamans viewing the Nether, druids viewing the Nether, priests viewing it and so on and so forth. Then there's previous experience with the Nether. A novice warlock trying to communicate with someone in the Twisting Nether will most likely see a picture that is a lot murkier and harder to understand than what a master warlock would see. It's just too subjective overall.
Different creatures seeing the Nether differently is so subjective... Even IRL, people with color blindness will perceive the world differently. Then add magic into that and it becomes way too open for interpretation. At the very least user of the different magical schools will perceive the Nether very differently. Those being: Shamans viewing the Nether, druids viewing the Nether, priests viewing it and so on and so forth. Then there's previous experience with the Nether. A novice warlock trying to communicate with someone in the Twisting Nether will most likely see a picture that is a lot murkier and harder to understand than what a master warlock would see. It's just too subjective overall.
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Well,I guess we can have more of an insight on Sargeras' power when antorus is live,Like i'm sure you've heard of Argus' "end of all things",if that shit refers to parallel universes then rip but that remains to be seen.
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It was only to my knowledge at best one universe.Abstract101 said:
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It's still not yet live so we do not know.
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To my knowledge: Creation= Everything.KinkiestSins said:
And, in the WoW Universe, The Universe has neigh Infinite Timelines. So, either it's High 3-A, Low 2-C, or High 2-A. (To not overhype it as much, i'm going to say it's High 3-A/Low 2-C)
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And that's Argus after being deplted for countless millenias and in a "lesser form".
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Yeah, had he not been tormented, he would've EASILY been the second strongest Titsn (Right next to Azeroth herself, that is).Abstract101 said:
Fun fact, the Mythic Phase of Argus, Sargeras possesses him, not only making Argus himself Red, but also giving him the name "The Death Titan".
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Well,idk if he would be the second strongest titan...is it confirmed he is stronger than Sargeras?
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Also if Argus goes all 2-B/2-A and shit after the world first,and we know he is weaker than sargeras because:
1.He was depleted and not even in a full titan form which makes it obvious.
2.It takes the last power of argus,the pantheon and Illidan to imprison Sargeras.
How powerful would sargeras and hell...Azeroth be?
1.He was depleted and not even in a full titan form which makes it obvious.
2.It takes the last power of argus,the pantheon and Illidan to imprison Sargeras.
How powerful would sargeras and hell...Azeroth be?
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As I said, Titan's have special abilities that make them pretty badass on their own.Abstract101 said:
Argus is the Unmaker. So, he's pretty much a wipe out Titan.
Sargeras is pretty much the fighter. He's Strong, Fast, And intelligent.
Aggramar's more or less a front line's expert. Going more for the offense than anything else.
Eonar is the life binder. So, she perverves life across the Universe.
Aman'thul's the Highfather, and the master of Time. He checks through the Timelines, he can go back in time, he CAN rewrite Time (Though, with a TON of conesequences), and so forth.
Khaz'goroth is pretty much the terraformer. He forges Worlds, Titanic Armor, and shit.
Gol'ganneth's the Titan of Sea And Sky. He's pretty much the thing that gives Mortal's/Planets Air to thrive through, and Water to Drink/Thirst on.
And Azeroth's likely the Titan of Light and Void. She's the strongest Titan, and she's also the hope of everything.
We're just the Heroes. We defend our World against neigh unstoppable foes.
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WoW is basically Dragonball, but with more Magic/Power, and more American/Medeval.
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Well tbh,Sargeras does have pretty strong magic and I doubt the form we fight him in within antorus is stronger or has more dc,since according to data mined stuff,Sargeras would just pop up and gets ready to solo everyone...And yeah,Aman'thul can basically end everything by simply just going yo yo on time.
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If Sargeras does combined himself with Argus' Titan on the Mythic Phase, then we'll be getting a **** TON of badassery. Cause, on Mythic, Not only is phase 4 completely gone from the fight, but the Phase 3 description says: When Argus reaches 40% health, he is sufficiently weakened such that Aman'thul is able to subdue him with a [Temporal Blast]. Or- so it seems...Abstract101 said:
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Must I mention the fact that there are a TON of leaked Sargeras abilities as well for the Argus fight? http://www.wowhead.com/news=273171/argus-the-unmaker-mythic-model-and-secret-phase
One of them even says that Sargeras himself casts said ability upon the player.
One of them even says that Sargeras himself casts said ability upon the player.
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Well,it seems that Sargeras possesses him while he arrives at argus apparently,and after he arrives they are forced to imprison him or whatnot.
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Oh my... I could just, ya know, make an entire paragraph on how WoW should be much higher than it's portrayed on that wikia, but I already know in advance that it won't be accepted for some random reasons so instead I will just say this :
Sargeras' feat that supposedly put at multi-galaxy was in fact high universal or at least universal simply because even though the universe is infinite , the feat was portrayed as if the damages were not infinitely smaller than the reality itself. Indeed, there would be no reason to make such a big statement if it did 0% of damage to the entire universe and even it only did 1%, it would still be at least universal.
Sargeras' feat that supposedly put at multi-galaxy was in fact high universal or at least universal simply because even though the universe is infinite , the feat was portrayed as if the damages were not infinitely smaller than the reality itself. Indeed, there would be no reason to make such a big statement if it did 0% of damage to the entire universe and even it only did 1%, it would still be at least universal.
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Sargeras should be relative to Argus the Unmaker. Argus has an ability that literally destroys all of creation, ends the universe like Sargeras wanted as a last resort. Shouldn't that at least make Sargeras universal?
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Sargeras should actually be stronger than Argus much stronger too,as we could see from the battle,the weakened titans (also while not in their "full" titan state),managed to help the adventurers beat Argus the unmaker,but when they fought Sargeras at first (at full power) they were almost erased from existence singlehandedly were it not for norgannon.
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Btw,was Argus' "end of all things" confirmed to only be universal?
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It states "destroys all of creation, killing everything " which is extremely vague, it could simply mean the central WoW universe or it could mean all the timelines of the WoW universe., which would be Multiverse plus, and if it includes things like realms outside of the physical universe, is it not complex multiversal?
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Tbh,i doubt they would refer to it as a single universe when Argus is following Sargeras' mission,which is to scour the multiverse of life and of worldsouls,it would make more sense to be the multiverse if we look at Argus' goal(which is the legion's)...And probably,if it destroys the shadowlands and all that shit (with their probably being 1 shadowland for the multiverse,if you have done the command table quests and shit).
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Argus calls Sargeras his master so yeah, he scales.
"Ending all creation and life" should simply means what it says, that should end all that was created by the Light and the Void, since these were the 2 forces that affected the fabric of creation to give birth to everything else we know in the verse to this day, which includes the Twisting Nether itself, which even if we deny that it transcends all realities and that it's extra-dimensional, is still as big as infinite universes and technically a door to all of them, so the multiverse cannot be excluded in "creation". It also would definitely include the Emerald Dream which is without finite space and time and is multi-layered.
Regardless, that would be dumb if it was only about one universe. The Legion would just be like "K, we have infinite other universes to invade it's no problem". Lol nope. Argus destroys everything period. That's literally the point of that dude, he would have to only cast that ultimate technique once.
"Ending all creation and life" should simply means what it says, that should end all that was created by the Light and the Void, since these were the 2 forces that affected the fabric of creation to give birth to everything else we know in the verse to this day, which includes the Twisting Nether itself, which even if we deny that it transcends all realities and that it's extra-dimensional, is still as big as infinite universes and technically a door to all of them, so the multiverse cannot be excluded in "creation". It also would definitely include the Emerald Dream which is without finite space and time and is multi-layered.
Regardless, that would be dumb if it was only about one universe. The Legion would just be like "K, we have infinite other universes to invade it's no problem". Lol nope. Argus destroys everything period. That's literally the point of that dude, he would have to only cast that ultimate technique once.
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Thread's dead? D:
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I'll try to address everything that's been discussed and I'll make a TL
R at the end of my post because this is probably going to be a long one.
I'd like to start by addressing some misconceptions:
@Aurzod, You can't describe a part of infinity using percentages, infinity is not a number, logically 1% of infinity is still infinity. Either The Titans dealt infinite damage to the universe, or they didn't. Considering the events that transpire after the fight between the members of the Pantheon, them being High-Universal is out of the question.
Please do keep in mind that "Sargeras' feat", as you described it, is actually the feat of all 7 Titans who were active at the time. They all contributed to the damage that was "dealt to reality" and that the feat encompasses the entirety of their battle, not a single moment of it. Even though the claim that The Great Dark Beyond sustained Universal damage because of this fight isn't completely groundless, I can't stress the usage of the word completely enough, it still would be best if we had some reservations towards this feat considering how vague the circumstances are.
In truth, when MasterofArda proposed 4-A ratings for the Titans in the previous revision thread, his proposal was also entirely plausible. However, in both of these cases several assumptions based on entirely unknown circumstances need to be made. My approach to this has been to simply take the statement at face value without making any speculations while knowing next to nothing about the intricacies that govern them. It's just Occam's Razor.
"if we deny that it transcends all realities..." No one is denying that, you're just interpreting the statement in the wrong context by automatically assuming that it means that the Nether is hyper-dimensional. There's no proof that it is, it doesn't display any such properties and it's denizens are certainly not higher-dimensional.
"That's literally the point of that dude" His point is to power the resurrections of the demons of the Burning Legion which is what he has been doing for the past 25 000 years.
I generally agree with most of what Antorus is saying but I feel like a 2-A rating is a stretch. There isn't nearly enough information presented in-game to conclusively suggest that. However, now that the raid has officially released I do think that Argus deserves to have a High 3-A rating considering that the Great Dark Beyond (the universe) is infinite in size.
If I had to guess why Argus would be so powerful it would be because of what seems to be a natural affinity for spatial manipulation. Just like Antorus said, each Titan specializes in a specific sphere of influence in which they are second to none. Aman'Thul is unrivaled in his control over time, Eonar is portrayed as having Life manipulating powers that are second to none and Kaz'goroth is such a master of Creation that he even instructs the other Titans at it. When it comes to Argus he utilizes spatial manipulation throughout the entirety of his fight. But that's just my headcannon, truth is that I have no idea why this character would be this strong.
TLR - Argus should be upgraded to High 3-A via his spatial manipulation. Sargeras doesn't have the exact same toolkit as Argus so he shouldn't automatically scale to him.
R at the end of my post because this is probably going to be a long one.I'd like to start by addressing some misconceptions:
@Aurzod, You can't describe a part of infinity using percentages, infinity is not a number, logically 1% of infinity is still infinity. Either The Titans dealt infinite damage to the universe, or they didn't. Considering the events that transpire after the fight between the members of the Pantheon, them being High-Universal is out of the question.
Please do keep in mind that "Sargeras' feat", as you described it, is actually the feat of all 7 Titans who were active at the time. They all contributed to the damage that was "dealt to reality" and that the feat encompasses the entirety of their battle, not a single moment of it. Even though the claim that The Great Dark Beyond sustained Universal damage because of this fight isn't completely groundless, I can't stress the usage of the word completely enough, it still would be best if we had some reservations towards this feat considering how vague the circumstances are.
In truth, when MasterofArda proposed 4-A ratings for the Titans in the previous revision thread, his proposal was also entirely plausible. However, in both of these cases several assumptions based on entirely unknown circumstances need to be made. My approach to this has been to simply take the statement at face value without making any speculations while knowing next to nothing about the intricacies that govern them. It's just Occam's Razor.
"if we deny that it transcends all realities..." No one is denying that, you're just interpreting the statement in the wrong context by automatically assuming that it means that the Nether is hyper-dimensional. There's no proof that it is, it doesn't display any such properties and it's denizens are certainly not higher-dimensional.
"That's literally the point of that dude" His point is to power the resurrections of the demons of the Burning Legion which is what he has been doing for the past 25 000 years.
I generally agree with most of what Antorus is saying but I feel like a 2-A rating is a stretch. There isn't nearly enough information presented in-game to conclusively suggest that. However, now that the raid has officially released I do think that Argus deserves to have a High 3-A rating considering that the Great Dark Beyond (the universe) is infinite in size.
If I had to guess why Argus would be so powerful it would be because of what seems to be a natural affinity for spatial manipulation. Just like Antorus said, each Titan specializes in a specific sphere of influence in which they are second to none. Aman'Thul is unrivaled in his control over time, Eonar is portrayed as having Life manipulating powers that are second to none and Kaz'goroth is such a master of Creation that he even instructs the other Titans at it. When it comes to Argus he utilizes spatial manipulation throughout the entirety of his fight. But that's just my headcannon, truth is that I have no idea why this character would be this strong.
TL
R - Argus should be upgraded to High 3-A via his spatial manipulation. Sargeras doesn't have the exact same toolkit as Argus so he shouldn't automatically scale to him.
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Yeah, 2-A does seem kind of like a stretch to me. I mean, if Argus wasn't so tormented and all, then maybe 2-A would be plausible.
Argus is basically a Titan with Universe destroying Haxes. He has abilities that differ from the rest of the Pantheon. Similar thing goes with Aman'thul, and the others. For example: Argus is to Unmake, Sargeras is both the Dark Titan as well as a brilliant Fighter in both combat and fields, Aggramar is the Avenger, Eonar is the Life-Binder, Gol'ganneth is the Titan of Sea and Sky, Norgannon is the Keeper of Secrets in the Multiverse, and more.
High 3-A to Low 2-C seems good enough for me, considering as though on Mythic, Aman'thul's Temporal Blast doesn't seem to work on Argus (Though, that's remained to be seen until we actually get to his Mythic Phase. However, judging from the Datamining, that is the case). And, well, Aman'thul's Temporal Blast is supposed to collapse Time itself around Argus' Titan...
Also, from what i've seen, Mythic is Canon as well. All difficulties are apparently Canon in the Lore. However, Mythic just sometimes gives the Players a different specticle from what they would usually see in the other difficulties. :/
Argus is basically a Titan with Universe destroying Haxes. He has abilities that differ from the rest of the Pantheon. Similar thing goes with Aman'thul, and the others. For example: Argus is to Unmake, Sargeras is both the Dark Titan as well as a brilliant Fighter in both combat and fields, Aggramar is the Avenger, Eonar is the Life-Binder, Gol'ganneth is the Titan of Sea and Sky, Norgannon is the Keeper of Secrets in the Multiverse, and more.
High 3-A to Low 2-C seems good enough for me, considering as though on Mythic, Aman'thul's Temporal Blast doesn't seem to work on Argus (Though, that's remained to be seen until we actually get to his Mythic Phase. However, judging from the Datamining, that is the case). And, well, Aman'thul's Temporal Blast is supposed to collapse Time itself around Argus' Titan...
Also, from what i've seen, Mythic is Canon as well. All difficulties are apparently Canon in the Lore. However, Mythic just sometimes gives the Players a different specticle from what they would usually see in the other difficulties. :/
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Sorry if I keep on mentioning the Titan's abilities left and right. I just want this thread to get straightened out, and over with.
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Also, I don't think what you said about Argus' Power was headcanon. I think it's intentional. For example, in Argus' Cone of Death Ability, it states that he grabs the fabric of reality itself, and uses it against us with his scythe. That doesn't seem like headcanon to me. Hell, Aman'thul was stated to both go back in time, rewrite history and shit. However, he doesn't do that as often, cause that comes with DIRE consequences.
Titan's are born with different Haxes, and shit. They're pretty much Gods with powers that reign beyond Mortal comprehension. Hell, even after we defeated Argus, it was stated that we should've not won that Battle. It was pretty much an impossible Achievement. :O
Titan's are born with different Haxes, and shit. They're pretty much Gods with powers that reign beyond Mortal comprehension. Hell, even after we defeated Argus, it was stated that we should've not won that Battle. It was pretty much an impossible Achievement. :O
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@Myriadofmemes
Thank you for the explanation. We may simply be dealing with writers who are contradicting themselves, given that the full extended struggle of the titans caused less damage than Argus would do in a single strike.
Thank you for the explanation. We may simply be dealing with writers who are contradicting themselves, given that the full extended struggle of the titans caused less damage than Argus would do in a single strike.
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That's almost certainly the case Ant, it's become a monthly occurrence for Warcraft to undergo some kind of retcon. To begin with, Titans didn't seem to be anywhere near this level of power during the first 20 years of the franchise. This is a relatively new development that first started happening in 2016.
Now Argus has become an infinite degree more powerful than anyone else and I don't think that whoever wrote this in was keeping track of any laws of physics. But power conversion has always been odd within the franchise with examples of some magic users transforming the energy of a couple of blades of grass into meteor showers and attacks that can damage characters with Mountain level durability. That would get further extrapolated for a character like Argus who, for all intents and purposes, has the status of a god.
Now Argus has become an infinite degree more powerful than anyone else and I don't think that whoever wrote this in was keeping track of any laws of physics. But power conversion has always been odd within the franchise with examples of some magic users transforming the energy of a couple of blades of grass into meteor showers and attacks that can damage characters with Mountain level durability. That would get further extrapolated for a character like Argus who, for all intents and purposes, has the status of a god.
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I'm heading off to work but I'll certainly leave some clarifications on their profiles when I get the chance.
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Honestly I don't think Argus is the "titan of unmaking" tbh,just going with his title doesn't prove that he has "unmaking hax" and all,that's like saying deathwing is omniversal because he has the title "the end of all things".The reason we know of the titan's powers in the first place is through the aspects which specified each of their powers,and Sargeras being the "warrior" seems like headcanon to me as he is a master of fel magic(best user) meaning he has the most destructive potential of all the titans he was just refered to as "the strongest of them all".
Edit:I read myriad's statements and fair enough I agree.
Edit:I read myriad's statements and fair enough I agree.
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Well, to be fair now, in Argus' Case, The End of All Things apply to Creation itself. While, in Deathwing's case, his mission was to destroy all life on Azeroth, so that the Old Gods could corrupt the Titan from within, unharmed.Abstract101 said:
Also, Argus was never called the Titan of Unmaking. Unmaking shit is just his special ability. On the Mythic Argus fight, he's supposed to be called "The Death Titan".
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