Samurai 8 3rd CRT

[Rocker1189]

Held most of this off for a while:


General Samurai stuff
(Immortality type 7): Samurai literally kill themselves to be reborn as Samurai by Fudo Myoo if he deems them worthy and from then on cannot die until Fudo Myoo forsakes them and we have this rightly as type 8 however I thin kthey should count as type 7 as well as already dead beings: https://i.imgur.com/gDu0s5u.jpg

Resistance to Death Manipulation: this is part of a product of type 7 but on top of that we are told by Ata that Samurai would not die as long as they dont lose hope: https://i.imgur.com/toc2IlA.png

Further supported by hat he says in a story in tells Hachimaru which is likely reffering to himself where he calls his Samurai body "undying":https://i.imgur.com/cmDWZhg.png

Resistance to Heat Manipulation: Samurai are capable of taking the heat of atmospheric reentry: https://i.imgur.com/5edvstN.png


Small Daruma update
He gets a small range increase to his sensing:https://i.imgur.com/jooX1oR.png

He was capable of sensing Goku and the others from outside the void.

Daruma should get Transformation in his Cat form by using Yasha's soul to tranform to his true self.

Big Hachimaru stuff
Hachi would be getting a new key.

7 paths of Hachimaru (where is the 8th?) His new key is going to scale to whatever base Ata ends up scaling to fake though it is only white sword Hachimaru who can do so. He gains:

Limited Possession: Possessed his brother's bodies: https://i.imgur.com/z11Ugnl.png


https://i.imgur.com/AiZHPuz.png

Absorption: He absorbed the information and keys of his brothers: https://i.imgur.com/Syq4tH4.png

Information Manipulation: Can absorb information is also an information amalgation on a lesser scale to Fudo Myoo.

Non-Corporeal, Dimensional Travel, Higher-Dimensional Existence? and Immortality (type 9): Is now an amalgation of informatio like Fudo he would never truly die as his information just goes back to this higher plane after his body dies: https://i.imgur.com/mhyuplW.png

also traveled to a higher plane: https://i.imgur.com/dptAtjU.png

https://i.imgur.com/cZIrlyT.png

More immortalities Immortality (types 4, 5 and 6): sperated cause the abilities right above got a bit crowed, type 4 is for reussrecting himself via his brothers bodies, type 5 is becuase he is now like Fudo Myoo, neither dead or alive as he states in the last chapter and type 6 via possession of his brother's bodies.

https://i.imgur.com/QDLlEw9.png

https://i.imgur.com/SAgMxeF.png

Ata stuff
BFR, limited/possible Void Manipulation, Spatial Manipulation, Portal Creation and Dimensional Travel with World of Death: He can BFR people to another dimension:https://i.imgur.com/NKeuEUB.png. He also states that Samurai can split and connect space which is how he did it and this is further shown here if you look at the edges of the portal: https://i.imgur.com/HrMWI6t.png you can see cracks in space. The void manipulation is a bit more contentious it is stated to be a void here: https://i.imgur.com/a1UpEV8.png whether it truly acts as a void is unknown, we do know that nothing is in it though. and even if it was a true void it would be limited since there is no evidence of him creating or controlling the void. Although if what he meant about splitting an connecting space meant that he literally split space into a void then there is further argument there.

Teleportation with cat beckoning: He can teleport people to him: https://i.imgur.com/HLA7ccC.png.

Information Manipulation and Transmutation with Kala's soul: (requires the reading of Hachimaru's update for more context) He is capable of discorporating bodies on touch making their information to leave their body behind: https://i.imgur.com/4jLjngu.png

His true body AP would be updated to 5-A for having the stats to learn all of the moves of both the Kongou Yasha and Ususama style making him comparable to Daruma and Hanaichi but due to not having enough evidence due to matching them with the full trinity which gives his stats a boost possibly 5-A might need to be what he gets instead. His Ryuki mode would definitely get 5-A however.

 

[AstralKing7]

I agree with it all. Chapter couldn't explain things any better than this

 

[Battler356ushiromiya]

Hachi should also be upgraded to 5A

 

[Rocker1189]

Hachi should also be upgraded to 5A

read what I put for the upgrade, I am not so sure about whether he scales in base due to use the samurai blade on Ata's bare body but his white blade should scale since he could matchh Ata, also it dpeneds on what Ata becomes he could either by 5-B still or gain a possibly 5-A or just be 5-A in base.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Couple things.

1. Type 7 is fine.

2. Don't see resistance to death manipulation here. Considering they already are type 7 I don't really see the point.

3. Resistance to heat is fine.

1. Range update is fine.

1. Possession looks good.

2. Absorption looks good.

3. Information manipulation looks alright.

4. Ehh disagree with higher dimensional existence, this seems to be a place where some Samurai end up when they die if I read it correctly. As far as we can tell Hachimaru isn't a higher dimensional entity at all. Same for type 9, this implies his real body is elsewhere and that he can only die if killed in said place. But this chapter doesn't suggest this.

5. Neither dead or alive doesn't mean type 5 as far as I'm aware, seems to be type 7. Type 4 is fine I guess? But I don't think he actually died here did he now? And I guess type 6 is fine technically although I don't think he can just jump from hosts to host anytime he'd like.


1. BFR is fine. Void Manipulation is not, the technique is just a BFR to a place without H Particles if I remember correctly. And considering what Fudo said a while ago about how the universe was created maybe it just means it's just a stagnant world.

2. looks fine.

3. Looks fine, could also be Transmutation.

 

[AstralKing7]

Rocker added limited for the possession already. It's also stated he died like more than twice.

Fudo didn't create the place where Daruama was sent. So I don't think it had h particles in the first place.

Also no that's not a place where Samurai end up when they die. It's literally stated that it's not. The chapter does actually suggest all of this.

 

[Rocker1189]

4, I mean that is literally what happens though. When their bodies in the normal would die his information goes to the higher plane making him unable to be killed mundanely.

5. Neither dead nor alive does mean type 5 though. He did die his body discorporated. I know about type 6 his possession is limited for that reason.

1. Possibly but it is stated to be a void.

3. Yeah transmutation is possible.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I never said Fudo created it lol, I said maybe it's not an actual void considering what he said before. As in the universe already had matter in it, but he helped jumpstart it essentially. So this place could be like the universe before Fudo.

 

[Rocker1189]

Being a high dimensional entinity does not necessarily mean that he is 4D or anything just saying. His real self just exists on a higher scale.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

4. His real self is in the real world though. He got a new body using his brother. And to be a higher dimensional entity does mean to be at least 4-D. I don't see the evidence for type 9 within the chapter.

5. I've seen this rejected a couple of times. As far as I'm aware it means type 7. Also in one of the pages Fudo states to discorporate doesn't mean death and Hachi also realizes it doesn't mean death. I missed the limited so it's fine.

1. Stating it's a void is one thing, but proving it is another. But I don't see how it means Ata manipulates void? He didn't weaponize it or anything.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

As there is no sufficient evidence of 5-A in base, I think Ata should remain at 5-B, not even a "Possibly 5-A". Mastering a Style has no connection to the power of a user.

Daruma gets his 5-A stat from Atmos-Fangs but the only thing stated is a user of the style needs 600 in all stats to use it but seeing as Masters of the Same style have different stats, Ata nor anybody should be scaled to one another without direct statements of their power or feats.

Example: Hanaichi is stated to be Daruma's Rival. We don't scale him because he's a master of another style but because he's state to rival Daruma and nothing in the series suggests otherwise as of yet.

Trinity Ata should be the only version that is 5-A due to feats. Base Ata scales above his Incarnate form through strong implication. My 2 cents.

I agree with everything else.

 

[Rocker1189]

4.Its in a higher plane as stated by FM. I don't quite get your point here. Even if not high dimensional it should be type 9 as it is not in the normal dimension or world. To fully kill him you have to kill the information body. In the other plane.

5 Well yeah it doesn't mean death for people on his level it's essentially death regardless.

1. True it's why I put possibly.

 

[AstralKing7]

Decorporated doesn't mean death if you are enlightened before you die. That was literally stated as well


Also hi real self is in the same plane as Fudo. Now this is literally stated and been pointed at since Ata. His Incarnate body is his real self literally. It's literally stated that a perfect incarnate body leaves the flesh behind to become nothing but a spiritual body which Hachi is.

A spiritual body which is enlightened moves to the higher dimension where Fudo is. This is also e reason hy he is able to possess his brothers because he is connected to them unlike he is to his locker ball anymore which we see in a different place.

 

[Rocker1189]

Its as Astral says. Discorporation would kill anyone unenlightened.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

To become a spiritual being just means you're made of h particles according to the chapter. " A spiritual being is made of h-particles". Unless h particles are higher dimensional particles I don't see it. Type 9 is quite a bit much, it should prob wait till the next chapter to see what happens because as far as I can tell it doesn't state any of the definition of type 9.

 

[Rocker1189]

He literally states that they are in a higher plane... Not sure how it is not type 9. Maybe they are higher D we are still learning of them.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

My point is it doesn't state this or imply it honestly. If I'm understanding correctly you're essentially saying Hachimaru now in the real world is some sort of avatar.

As for the H-Particle bit being higher dimensional, wouldn't that mean Samurai have some degree of higher dimensional manipulation and that the main universe is higher dimensional lol?

Transcendental Immortality: Characters whose true selves exist independently from the plane where they can be killed.

 

[Rocker1189]

Well yes? Sort of? If that body dies it's not death for Hachimaru he just goes back to the plane him and Fudo are in. Its literally what happens right here.

Not the main universe know but if FM ends up being higher dimensional then maybe they do have some higher dimensionality to the origin of Thier abilities. Not the main world though as it is clear that this dimension is the higher dimensional to the real world.

Yeah literally what we see. His true self( information amalgation) exists in another dimension ( the higher plane/dimension as stated by FM) and he can be killed in the real world. Word for word.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Well I asked Dargoo and Wokistan to comment regarding the higher dimensional stuff.

 

[Rocker1189]

Sure

 

[Rocker1189]

1. Stating it's a void is one thing, but proving it is another. But I don't see how it means Ata manipulates void? He didn't weaponize it or anything.

Missed this btw I address this in the post

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Yeah I read it again.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

It's far more likely that the people in those scans are talking about some sort of afterlife or spiritual plane rather than higher spatial dimensions, considering the use of words.

"Higher Dimension" is never used once, while "Higher Plane" is only present on one scan out of the bunch, while "Dimension" is also only mentioned once and in isolation of other key terms, which lends more towards a seperate universe/plane than a higher spatial dimension.

Since I was just asked to comment on that aspect specifically I'll leave it at that, other experts can chime in too but just mark me as a no for applying that ability.

 

[Rocker1189]

Its not an afterlife because Fudo Myoo is not dead he is the "God" of the universe and is literally an amalgation of informstion. Regardless does type 9 immortality still count since that is where theirtrue form resides not in the "normal" dimension.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

My main point was that the information doesn't tell us that it's a higher dimension, so it not being an afterlife doesn't mean much other than making it more confusing than it already is.

Since I'm unfamiliar with the verse myself I'll try and let supporters discuss the other abilities; I'm mostly just commenting for the higher-dimensionality.

 

[Rocker1189]

welp anyway I would just put up what type 9 says:

9: Transcendental Immortality: Characters whose true selves exist independently from the plane where they can be killed.

Hachimaru's true self (the information amalgation) exists independently from the normal world (where his body is) in another dimension and as said killing him would just have his information travel to this dimension or higher plane. Thus I think he should qualify for Type 9.

5: Deathless Immortality: Characters who exist unbound by conventional life or death, or do not exist at all, and thus cannot be traditionally killed. Typically, abilities such as Existence Erasure are needed to destroy them.

Characters who exist unbound by conventional life or death

This is what Hachimaru and Fudo Myoo qualify for:

https://i.imgur.com/QDLlEw9.png

https://i.imgur.com/SAgMxeF.png

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Was asked to comment here, so besides what was already rejected (?) most of this looks pretty straightforward. Agreeing with it.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I always saw Type 9 as consisting of some external force essentially controlling a lesser being representative of it as if it was a drone of sorts, and being able to recreate them after death, hence why it is a type of Immortality in the first place.

This just seems to be describing some sort of process where the information comprising an individual leaves their body behind after their death and coalesces back into another plane of existence where they exist as a spiritual entity. The "force" in this case is not inherently external to the physical individual; it is something that pertains to them and leaves them behind once they die. Giving Type 9 Immortality to that is the same thing as giving Type 9 Immortality to everyone in a verse where an Afterlife exists.

Higher-Dimensional Existence sounds iffy too. "Higher plane" alone is vague and doesn't necessarily imply some qualitative superiority over the lower plane, and even if it did, just existing in one wouldn't make them higher-dimensional.

I don't agree with Type 5 either. That's just some vague Schrodinger's Cat type of thing where they reside in two quantum states simultaneously (in this case, dead and alive), with their true situation depending on an external observer. It doesn't equate to being unbound by life and death as concepts.

 

[YungManzi]

@Ultima, You don't have to be unbound by the concept of life and death to have type 5 immortality.

Months ago, I thought the same, but that's just not the case. The description of type 5 doesn't say that, and plenty of characters who aren't "unbound by life and death as concepts" have type 5 listed.

Edit:

As far as I'm aware, there's also been changes to Higher Dimensional Existence which allows us to call them higher dimensional without saying they are 4-D. Because not every verse's "Higher Dimensional" = Universal+ and beyond.

 

[Shirou_Kazuma]

Where hachimaru goes after death is not the afterlife. FM clearly makes a differentiation that the samurai who die DON"T reach the plane that they are in because the samurai think that they are actually dying, hence don't achieve enlightenment. Only the samurai who achieved enlightenment before their death and also the knowledge that death isn't actually dying, only then they are able to reach the "higher plane" that hachimaru and FM were talking in. Only a few people have ever reached that dimension. Its a dimension where ONLY the enlightened beings can reach and even if you kill or erase the body of that person in the normal world, he wouldn't die because he would simply reach this higher plane. Though it can still be argued of how this person could go back to the real world without having extra-hachimaru bodies available. So we need to wait for the next chapter, as all the fake hachimaru bodies are dead and the one body that hachimaru took over to return back to the real world(i.e now hachimaru himself) is also dead now. So the next chapter will show us how hachimaru can come back from death/erasure without having bodies to possess.

Also that dimension is fundamentally different from the afterlife, not all dead people reach there (as stated by FM himself).

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Yung

The description certainly implies that, given how it says characters of this kind are typically only able to be killed by Existence Erasure or similar abilities. If they are just not alive or dead in a biological sense, then giving them Type 5 is no different from saying inanimate objects have Type 5 as well. It doesn't add up.

But, if that's how it has been applied these days, then I suppose it's something to tackle somewhere else. So I digress. My point still stands though; that's not Type 5 anyways, just some vague quantum superimposition.

Yeah, but the proposals for higher-dimensional existence here would only be valid if said higher plane was demonstrably qualitatively superior to lower planes, since it relies on that assumption in the first place, otherwise it's just some vague alternate plane of existence.

 

[Rocker1189]

@Ultima

Initially it is a recess after they die for the first time that their information goes to the higher plane. If you get enlightened however then your information stays there permanently just like Fudo Myoo is in that plane permanently. And also as shown not everyone reaches it, it is specifically not an afterlife. I did it higher dimensionality as a question mark. For others their information travels and reforms into another individual, essentially reincarnation.

I don't get how being in a paradoxical state of being pretty much dead or alive is not your 5 though? Death manip certainly should not work on them and neither should life manip. Killing them is useless as well since they are not alive. And it says "typically" EE is required to kill them, it's not a rule. The "unbound by conventional life and death" is what makes the type 5. I don't see how inanimate objects have to do with anything since they are not sentient. I don't know how else I am meant to represent the state of being they are in? Considering I have seen type 5 be given in this way for quite a few verses.

Also how do I represent someone having or controlling multiple bodies on profiles.

 

[YungManzi]

Also, Ultima.

We literally have a page for Inorganic Physiology which flat out says that type 2's (Non-living objects) are unbound by conventional manipulation of Life and Death.

"Since these characters usually also don't have something like life force and aren't alive in the usual sense in the first place, they are furthermore unaffected by common forms of Life Manipulation and Death Manipulation."

Which means, yes, objects do have type 5 immortality.

 

[Rocker1189]

At the very least if we are not giving them type 5 they should gain resistance to Iife and death manip.

 

[AstralKing7]

Actually I think we need more staff on this thread it seems

 

[Rocker1189]

Well I talked Risci about type 5 it seems he disagrees with type 5 but sailys that immunity to death manip(deciding on their state) and resistance to life manip makes sense. And I guess I agree with that.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Initially it is a recess after they die for the first time that their information goes to the higher plane. If you get enlightened however then your information stays there permanently just like Fudo Myoo is in that plane permanently. And also as shown not everyone reaches it, it is specifically not an afterlife. I did it higher dimensionality as a question mark. For others their information travels and reforms into another individual, essentially reincarnation.

It still functions similarly to one, from what I see, so whether or not it is an Afterlife by the verse's terms is semantics and basically irrelevant to the discussion. It is still not Type 9 for reasons I outlined above; Type 9 is basically Type 8 except you are reliant on some higher self that is inherently external to your physical body, as opposed to some general idea/concept/object. In this case, the information is something that strictly pertains to the individual and leaves their body after death, which is arguably not even Immortality in the first place.

I don't get how being in a paradoxical state of being pretty much dead or alive is not your 5 though?

Because they still partake in those states ("Alive" and "Dead"), in this case, and just happen to also exist in a state where they are both superimposed over one another until an external observer "collapses" them into a specific one of these two. At best I can see this being Resistance to Life and Death Manipulation, given how one of the scans say they are the ones who decide whether they are dead or alive.

Considering I have seen type 5 be given in this way for quite a few verses.

Which ones do you have in mind, specifically?

 

[Rocker1189]

It still functions similarly to one, from what I see, so whether or not it is an Afterlife by the verse's terms is semantics and basically irrelevant to the discussion. It is still not Type 9 for reasons I outlined above; Type 9 is basically Type 8 except you are reliant on some higher self that is inherently external to your physical body, as opposed to some general idea/concept/object. In this case, the information is something that strictly pertains to the individual and leaves their body after death, which is arguably not even Immortality in the first place.

I think you are misunderstanding something, it is only after the first death that the information goes to this dimension, afterwards if you are enlightened you stay there as information, Hachimaru after he was enlightened possessed the bodies of his brothers and controlled them as his own body essentially as an avatar. His information still exists in that higher plane.

Because they still partake in those states ("Alive" and "Dead"), in this case, and just happen to also exist in a state where they are both superimposed over one another until an external observer "collapses" them into a specific one of these two. At best I can see this being Resistance to Life and Death Manipulation, given how one of the scans say they are the ones who decide whether they are dead or alive.

I did say that I talked to risci and he disagreed with type 5 and agreed to immunity to death manip and likely reisstance to lfe manip for the same reasons as you.

Which ones do you have in mind, specifically?

I would admit I cant think of any specifics right now but I do think I have seen it accepted in this way before else I wouldnt have tried it.

 

[YungManzi]

Fate verse has some type 5's who aren't stated to be conceptually unbound by life and death. Forgot who, but it was discussed a while ago on a Yogiri Takatou thread with him vs a Nasuverse character.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Also, Ultima.

We literally have a page for Inorganic Physiology which flat out says that type 2's (Non-living objects) are unbound by conventional manipulation of Life and Death.

"Since these characters usually also don't have something like life force and aren't alive in the usual sense in the first place, they are furthermore unaffected by common forms of Life Manipulation and Death Manipulation."

Which means, yes, objects do have type 5 immortality.

Using this page to prove your point isn't exactly the most ideal choice when the whole reason it exists is so we don't slap Type 5 in any character that's not technically alive or dead in a biological sense. Such as, for example, inanimate objects like rocks and stuff.