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yes yes yes yes
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Saitama(current) VS Goku(current)
- Thread starter Legulast
- Start date
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My brother in Christ why would you bring that up, there are no tier 2 feats in original dragon ball
GodlyCharmander
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I didn't, you did. You replied to my comment about DBS: Anime (which is canon) with "the Wiki doesn't recognize the manga as canon to the anime".
Since I wasn't talking about the DBS: Manga, I could only reply with a fact, the DBS Anime is a canonical continuation of the original manga, which has Tier 2 feats. (DBS Anime has Tier 2 feats)
Literally just pay attention to the conversation.
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Well, manga goku isn’t tier 2 so
this is kinda pointless
this is kinda pointless
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"current Goku" is kinda vague nlg
GodlyCharmander
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Dragon Ball Super Goku is Low 2-C, the anime version, which is canon.
I don't know why you're so fixated on Manga Goku when no one gives a crap about him
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Oh wait, I misread the original post
well if we’re using anime goku then it is indeed a stomp since he can’t reach low 2-C, this thread kinda sucks
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Hah
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Can't a Stronger future Saitama travel back in time and kill a Younger weaker Goku by manipulating causality and end the fight before even happen (the effect precede the cause)?
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Current Saitama doesn’t remember any of it so technically noCan't a Stronger future Saitama travel back in time and kill a Younger weaker Goku by manipulating causality and end the fight before even happen (the effect precede the cause)?
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So it will be a time loop Saitama keep going back in the past again and again since he forgets or something...
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No that’s not how it works, it’s just that us past self is his current self and he forgot
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Exactly so they will fight again since Saitama doesn't know anything.... Wait you're right he probably forgot he can time travel as well...
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Here we go again.
Same argument here.
I knew that this statement gonna came out.
There are 3 things that i can contest with that:
1)In the Timeline where Garou was defeated, Saitama never knew how to time travel, but from their prospective a random Saitama appeared anyway without any reason, even if in that Timeline there was no causality (since garou was defeated before Saitama learned to time travel) to explain how an alternative Saitama went back in time.
Imagine to read up to Chapter 166 and then skip immediatly to the point where a Saitama from another Timeline appear.
From that timeline prospective this happened completely randomly and the causality that led to Saitama to know how to Time Travel never happened in that timeline, but a random stronger Saitama from another Timeframe appeared anyway even if the Saitama of such Timeline didn't technically knew how to Time Travel.
I dunno if you have understood how broken it is and how it work.
Reverse causality means that X and Y are associated, but not in the way you would expect. Instead of X causing a change in Y, it is really the other way around: Y is causing changes in X.
With Reversal Causality there is no need that the current Saitama know how to Time Travel because a Future and stronger Saitama from any other potential Timeline can appear anyway without having necessary the cause or explaination that permitted him to do that in the present timeframe.
2)Plus, yet again, even if we follow your logic your assumption do not substain also because your are going against a remarkable principle of power scaling, which is to compare 2 character at their peak, not their less strong version is SBA (standard battle assumptions) are not present.
The strongest Version (in term of both abilities and power) of Saitama so far is exactly the one that just beat Garou and learned to time travel
If, for any reason, Saitama or Goku for any event in the Manga lose all of their powers or forget how to fight, would you still Compare them while using the weaker current Goku or Saitama (at their lowest) or would you indeed take to reference their previous stronger versions?
Notice in fact that Saitama didn't technically lose such ability, like Genos stated, meaning there is always a probability not equal to 0 that a Saitama from the future without related causality can intervene, leading to previous implications
3)Genos refer to such ability not as a past ability that Saitama lost forever but as an ability that Saitama still technically have
"Your ability to Trascend and Manipulate Causality"
"No matter how parallel worlds exist [...] you would have trascendent time and space to save us all"
Genos is refering also to the many worlds theory (we gonna do a little bit of superficial quantum physic here, check what it is here, but many of you know the story of the schrödinger cat
According to this theory each event can have another timeline in which such event play out differently.
There can be even a parallel timeline in which Garou never teach Saitama how to do time travel.
This is irrelevant because it doesn't matter how bad things turns out to be, Saitama would have always beat Garou and even in the worst case scenario (including the parrallel timeline/world in which Garou do not teach Saitama how to do that since this could have happened in any potential parallel world in which the probability of such event does not equalize to 0; remember that Genos talk about this - refering to trascending and manipulating causality - as an ability of Saitama) he would have managed to manipulate the laws of causality anyway and save them all.
Notice that in Retrocausality the effect precede the cause (see point 1, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrocausality), meaning that from that Timeline prospective such event can still occur without a causal explaination in such timeline.
https://**********/read/imgur/v1LOFQq/1/10/
GodlyCharmander
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In a reality where Saitama can travel back in time to a specific location and even know how to get to a point where he can beat Goku, sure.Can't a Stronger future Saitama travel back in time and kill a Younger weaker Goku by manipulating causality and end the fight before even happen (the effect precede the cause)?
Also, in a reality where the former doesn't get one shot and speedblitzed, sure.
GodlyCharmander
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Big verbose for a shitty argument.
The causality came from another universe, Multiverse Theory is very much stated to exist by Genos.
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Genos Stated that Saitama litteraly Trascend Time and Space, and during Time Travel he was able to see the event of that Timeline that occur in other location outside the point of timetraveling (indeed he was able to re-see the moves of Garou made on Jupiter even if he started traveling backwards on time from Earth)
"Also, in a reality where the former doesn't get one shot and speedblitzed, sure"
Like stated, The punch from Reversal of Causality is unavoidable. This is not necessary due to Saitama infinite speed, but because the effect precede the cause and the punch may appear only when landed in such timeline.
Because this is reversal of causality, this can happen before the fight even begin or Goku manage to start attacking (a Saitama from the future can also appear in the present Timeline; notice because Saitama constantly grow without any limits -to the point he can one shot his version of yesterday -, there is no limits on how strong the Saitama from the future can potentially be)
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Or it might just create another timeline since it's very dragon ball thing
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"Big verbose for a shitty argument."
Good, what is your argument if actually cannon?
"The causality came from another universe, Multiverse Theory is very much stated to exist by Genos."
And that automatically makes it invalid? How can you know that is actually not telling the truth? What if the author used indeed Genos to give at least some kind of "rational" explaination of such events to the reader?
So far this is the only clear explaination we got and indeed seems to match what happened.
I also think this could be usefull in the future because he may need that feats (the one that allowing to trascend time) to beat God, because remember that Time Travel is a Secret stealed from God, so i'm instead not 100% sure that the statement made here around Time Travel are all caps and will not be important for Saitama in the Future (expecially to resist god influence).
If God is that powerfull and have such ability, why he cannot travel back in time and kill Saitama?
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Jesus Christ dumbass the thread is for current Saitama not peak Saitama
GodlyCharmander
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"literally transcend"
The word "transcend" does not have any significant meaning without proper context or a meaningful scientific basis. Genos' given context is just the consequence of reversing time. No matter how you go back in time,
Saitama does not have infinite speed.
The punch would be "unavoidable" if Saitama could start his time travel before Goku simply one shots him. That is, if we use bloodlusted characters, there wouldn't be any timeline where Saitama doesn't get killed before he reacts, meaning there is no timeline which Saitama can start his time travel.
If we use in-character characters, Saitama wouldn't consciously use this ability to get a free win, and I doubt he would even attempt to use it again.
He straight up just loses.
Furthermore, a punch from him wouldn't do anything to Goku, and said future Saitama would just be one shot.
Anything beyond Tier 3 is unachievable with linear and/or exponential progression. Darn, he couldn't even reach High 3-A via this (Infinite Power)
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saitama wins
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Nobody beatin' Goku tho. Dripku solos
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Read what i wrote.
<<Notice in fact that Saitama didn't technically lose such ability (as it is stated that he have the ability to trascend and manipulate causality), like Genos stated, meaning there is always a probability not equal to 0 that a Saitama from the future without related causality can intervene, leading to previous implications>>
And
<<In the Timeline where Garou was defeated, Saitama never knew how to time travel, but from their prospective a random Saitama appeared anyway without any reason, even if in that Timeline there was no causality (since garou was defeated before Saitama learned to time travel) to explain how an alternative Saitama went back in time.
Imagine to read up to Chapter 166 and then skip immediatly to the point where a Saitama from another Timeline appear.
From that timeline prospective this happened completely randomly and the causality that led to Saitama to know how to Time Travel never happened in that timeline, but a random stronger Saitama from another Timeframe appeared anyway even if the Saitama of such Timeline didn't technically knew how to Time Travel.
I dunno if you have understood how broken it is and how it work.
Reverse causality means that X and Y are associated, but not in the way you would expect. Instead of X causing a change in Y, it is really the other way around: Y is causing changes in X.
With Reversal Causality there is no need that the current Saitama know how to Time Travel because a Future and stronger Saitama from any other potential Timeline can appear anyway without having necessary the cause or explaination that permitted him to do that in the present>>
GodlyCharmander
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I am stating that Genos is speaking the truth. Effects of Causality aren't being caused by nothing, it's caused by an interdimensional instigator (Saitama from another Universe).vThis could be reacted to if you simply have precognition.
Furthermore, Saitama isn't manipulating causality, he is manipulating time, which in consequence, affects causality (in X timeline, assuming he came from Y timeline)
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Meaningful scientific basis...what do you mean with that? We are talking about fiction.
Give me a scientific explaination on how is scientifically possible to trascend time (plus Genos have given a quite long Psedo-scientifical explaination, more than what you can get from a usual normal manga chapter).
"Genos' given context is just the consequence of reversing time. No matter how you go back in time,"
Wait, so essentially what he meant with having the ability to Trascend Time and Space and Trascending and manipulating Causality?(give me a definition of the words trascend, then applying it on this context -i'm not saying you are wrong, i wanna understand your explaination)
"Saitama does not have infinite speed"
Never Said that, in fact i stated the exact contrary.
"The punch would be "unavoidable" if Saitama could start his time travel before Goku simply one shots him."
Exactly. This statement expose the fact that you may not have understood my argument.
The Saitama that Traveled in the past is not the current Saitama but the Future Saitama that Ended the fight before it begin (like it happened to Garou).
You are seeing the match in a linear way, this is why you cannot follow the logic.
Imagine to read the manga up to chapter 166, skip to 168 when a Saitama from the future appear: from their prospective this happened almost randomly and there was no reason or explaination (lack of causality, since garou never teached Saitama to Time Travel and the events that led to that never occured) to justify that. This should lead to the Grandfather paradox, which did not occur because these are the mecchanics that the author choose for such event. In fact the event in which a future Saitama appear and Zero Shot a past/present version of Goku can also be the consequence of a causal loop, not a grandfather paradox; in either case neither of the two need a causality in such timeline.
In fact your statement in which you say <<where Saitama doesn't get killed before he reacts, meaning there is no timeline which Saitama can start his time travel.>> can be replied with <<If Saitama from the future end the fight before it happened, there will be no timeline where present Saitama get killed before he reacts, meaning there is always a potential timeline in which Saitama can Time Travel again in the future (causal loop)>>
<<If we use in-character characters, Saitama wouldn't consciously use this ability to get a free win, and I doubt he would even attempt to use it again.>>
Indeed this is in character, because is not the current Saitama that consciously use this ability to get a free win, it is a future Saitama that appear and use such ability due to a causality that is unknown from the individuals of such Timeline.
Saitama never would have Zero shot Garou, but because Saitama could Theoretically Time Travel, another Saitama from a never happened/occured sets of events appeared anyway and end the fight.
As long there is a probability greater than 0 that this can happen, this can be a potential win condition (without Time Travel stuff i don't know who would win, but for feats in that case i would give it to goku; you need to argue on this 2 points to convince me:
1)Explain to me what counter Goku would have if Saitama - including the one from another timeline - Travel Back in Time and kill Goku or one -or more - of his relevant ancestors
2)Explain to me why a Saitama from the Future - he constantly grow limitlessly every day, so there such Saitama can have any potential level of strenght - cannot appear and 0 shot goku with an attack that precede his cause.
If you can address this properly and counter my argument on them, you can convince me, because these are the main reasons i changed idea around Goku vs Saitama after chapter 168)
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"This could be reacted to if you simply have precognition."
Debatable, since Garou stated he wasn't able to sense it <<It came out of nowhere, from a place i sensed nothing>> while in both the Manga and the webcomic he was able to predict the attacks from Saitama before even happen (plus while also having the knowledge of the flow of all energy in the universe, a statement tho that can have different interpretations, so i will not dive into that just for that reason)
https://**********/read/imgur/v1LOFQq/1/3/
The implication with Goku being able to predict moves that are from litterally the future are huge, since such ability of prediction would put his knowledge very near to omniscience (as he need to know variables that came from future timelines and parrallel worlds).
I'm skeptical with such assumption, because how can Goku perfectly predict a move that came from the future if he already get hit and damaged from attacks that come from the present?
"Furthermore, Saitama isn't manipulating causality, he is manipulating time, which in consequence, affects causality (in X timeline, assuming he came from Y timeline)"
i know that, the two things can indeed be related (theoretically speaking you can alter causality by Time traveling or messing with when and where the effect occur/transpired)
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Spicy
GodlyCharmander
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We are talking about a theorical physics, which are introduced in this form of fiction. My concerns are valid, a word cannot be interpreted a certain way without context.
Saitama is not bound by linear spacetime continuum thanks to his ability to travel through time. Conventional Causality is also not applied when travelling back in time.
But this is about his ability to travel in time. The effects of time and space still very much apply to Saitama, meaning he doesn't truly transcends the concepts, but rather, has a way to circumvent their limits.
He stills ages, and would possibly be affected by time stop.
It cannot.
Again, it requires at least one future where Bloodlusted Saitama lasts more than 1E-70 seconds against Bloodlusted Goku.
Such a future is impossible.
There would need to be at least one reality where, during his fight with Goku, Future Saitama will consciously use his time travel to hit Goku. Such a timeline isn't possible.
Current Saitama has no knowledge of his time travelling abilities.
Current Saitama has no way of getting said knowledge during a fight with Goku, as Garou is defeated in his timeline.
Current, and Future Saitama both wouldn't resort to such a tatic in character in no possibility unless Goku kills someone he cares about, something Goku will absolutely not do.
Thus, there would not be a Future Saitama travelling back in time, making an in character causality negation utterly impossible.
Garou cannot see into the future. I am talking about future sight. In X timeline, a future Saitama appearing is a set event, unlike in Y timeline, where said future Saitama came from.
Didn't say Goku had it, just said it wasn't unavoidable by any means. Someone like Monkey D. Luffy could react to it if he had enough speed. (but he doesn't have the speed and durability to do so, just an example).
Would never imply such a thing. But Goku had been able to correctly predict Time Skip attacks in the past. Hit attacks him 0.1 seconds in the future, and Goku reacts in said future.
Nullflowerblush
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**** is this thread
azontr
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Something goofy.
Vietthai96
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I don't even know what the hell is happening anymore
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Same
GodlyCharmander
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Lol this is fun af
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"We are talking about a theorical physics, which are introduced in this form of fiction. My concerns are valid, a word cannot be interpreted a certain way without context."
Yeah, but your request was different: you wanted scientific basis for a fictional scenario that don't have scientific basis in the first place.
What you mean by Scientific basis? Also if you didn't mean actual science but you were comptempt with pseudo science, wasn't the Genos explaination and context Pseudo-scientifical enough?
This is what i'm trying to understand.
"Conventional Causality is also not applied when travelling back in time."
Exactly, this is why he was able to induce a retrocausality phenomena.
Retrocausality - Wikipedia
We agree on that, so, so far so good
"The effects of time and space still very much apply to Saitama, meaning he doesn't truly transcends the concepts, but rather, has a way to circumvent their limits."
What you just said is that Saitama usually is affected by Time and Space but he has found a way to Transcend them or their limits.
If not what you are saying you need to explain what "circuventing the limits of time and space" mean, what Genos meant with "manipulating and Trascend Time, Space and Causality" and what is your definition of "Trascending" within the given context.
"Again, it requires at least one future where Bloodlusted Saitama lasts more than 1E-70 seconds against Bloodlusted Goku.
Such a future is impossible."
False. It's not the fact that Saitama was "bloodlusted" (which simply mean being serious) that necessary can lead to such event.
Saitama never went Bloodlusted in such Timeline, but another Saitama from another potential timeline could appear anyway throught also a causal loop.
For instance, a Saitama from the Future can theoretically do the things we said while holding a device that came from such timeline, for example a video or any type of device that can lead Saitama to learn the technique again after reviewing the material (it can even be a record or a paper indication made by the future Saitama that Explain to the past Saitama what to do to beat Goku, how to time travel and to repeat the Same thing in the future; notice that the fusion happened only between the two Saitama, not the inorganic core of genos for example).
Since Saitama did not die because it was saved by a Saitama from the future and he still holding the device with the information and data from that future Timeline, now there is a probability Greater than 0 that the occured events can rehappen again because of that.
This is a Causal Loop Paradox, and because of the nature of Such paradox some things that are trapped in such loop may lack of causality.
Temporal paradox - Wikipedia
"There would need to be at least one reality where, during his fight with Goku, Future Saitama will consciously use his time travel to hit Goku. Such a timeline isn't possible"
Which is false, like i explained with the causal loop
"Current Saitama has no knowledge of his time travelling abilities.
Current Saitama has no way of getting said knowledge during a fight with Goku, as Garou is defeated in his timeline.
Current, and Future Saitama both wouldn't resort to such a tatic in character in no possibility unless Goku kills someone he cares about, something Goku will absolutely not do.
Thus, there would not be a Future Saitama travelling back in time, making an in character causality negation utterly impossible."
Wrong. Like i explained before a Saitama from the Future can have such knowledge and can pass it inderectly with an inorganic device (plus, Current Saitama don't need to have such knowledge to have a Future Saitama from another Timeline to spawn randomly without causality; notice that the previous events, like i said before, should have led to the Grandfather Paradox...which they didn't because these are the mecchanics that the author choose for Saitama Time Travel - it may also because Saitama Trascend the laws of Causality - )
"Didn't say Goku had it, just said it wasn't unavoidable by any means"
The only statement that we have from the author is that it was unavoidable.
I would argue instead that the reason on why it was stated in the same page "Reversal of Causality, Absolutely Unavoidable" is because Future Saitama appeared in that timeline only when the punch landed (in fact, like already said, he punched garou while he was still traveling back in time and able to see the past; See chapter 168) since the Effect transpired before his cause and therefore Saitama won in "0 punches" because the saitama of that Timeline from his prospective didn't Land a single punch to win, but it was the Saitama from the Future that led to a Reversal of Causality event with the Effect that happend before a now erased/never occured causality.
"Would never imply such a thing. But Goku had been able to correctly predict Time Skip attacks in the past. Hit attacks him 0.1 seconds in the future, and Goku reacts in said future."
I knew you gonna use the Hit thing.
There is a difference between predicting an attack that start in the present and manifest into the future (causality is preserved) and an attack that start from the future and manifest in the present or past (causality is not preserved; effect transpired before the cause; it would be like predicting something that litteraly doesn't even exist or that does not have a cause that ever existed), expecially if you take into account that such event can affect a younger version of Goku as well (which you cannot argue that he have the same ability and power of Current Goku)
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Welcome to Time Travels.
We offer low cost headaches and an unreasonable set of events that would make you develop a personalized form of ADHD.
Vietthai96
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what??????
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It was a joke to say that time travels are weird and overly-complicated with all the paradoxes or implications they can theoretically generate
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