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RWBY vol 8 discussion thread

Dargoo_Faust said:
Could I get a refresher on why this was removed in the first place? Or just a link to that thread?

And by Cinder's group I'm taking it you mean Vol 1-3 Mercury and Emerald?
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Pretty much solely because 'they use bullets so they cant be MHS'

Merc and Emerald and then like late Vol 5/Vol 6 onwards main cast
 
Which feat are we talking about? The one they did against Amber was rejected because the lightning long since hit and clipped over their bodies before they even started moving away, making it relatively impossible to judge an actual speed for them.

Im not knowledgable of feats at that level in later volumes though.
 
I distinctly recall that crt and that being brought up. By the time they start moving away the lightning bolt long since struck the ground.

Though, it was some time since I saw that scene. If you could link the episode I'd be fine with going over it again.
 
How are we still talking about feat/scaling we should've had so long? MHS should be pretty cut and dry. Not just for CInder and up, it scales to pretty much everyone in the main cast. I'm still perplexed about how there discussion about re-calcing Penny's weak lasers when we could be re-calc the shaking of Argus. Since it was for reason rejected before.
 
And for those who still need to see weaker versions of Emerald and Mercury dodging lightning multiples times...
giphy.gif
 
Community_Gamer said:
And for those who still need to see weaker versions of Emerald and Mercury dodging lightning multiples times...
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This isn't them "dodging lightning multiple times". This is them running around the person trying to strike them with lightning in an attempt to make it harder to hit them.

Only the initial dodge is a solid feat for this (they do indeed move a distance before the bolts strike them), but then we have Mercury failing to avoid a hand-fired bolt from a weakened Amber shortly after this (happens at 10:18 for mobile users). Since Mercury began moving after the bolt was channeled through Amber the first time, this time actually had him with more notice and a bigger distance to begin moving, so it's a pretty massive anti-feat for Mercury.

Meanwhile we have the aforementioned Volume 5 Yang and Ruby having no reaction whatsoever to cloud-to-ground lightning until it hit, which if they were MHS in any capacity you'd imagine they'd have some reaction to it as it traveled thousands of meters to the ground.

I would be opposed to re-upgrading the speeds to MHS. It's fairly inconsistent in the series (and in the very scenes themselves where these feats happen) as opposed to feats of bullet-timing, which are consistent in just about every fight in the series.

WeeklyBattles said:
Pretty much solely because 'they use bullets so they cant be MHS'
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This is a bad argument for a number of reasons and the same logic can also be applied to the bullets themselves ("why are bullets even a thing if everyone and their grandmother (literally) can avoid them effortlessly?", etc). However after looking at Kep's thread that wasn't his argument.
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
There is also the sea dragon Grimm lightning.
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I don't see why we'd consider this to be the same speed as cloud-to-ground lightning.

It has a higher AP value than regular lightning, fulfilling one requirement, however it acts nothing like actual electricity while in air, travelling in a solid, straight, continuous beam when fired rather than arcing. It also terminated as it leaves the Grimm; lightning connects directly to the source and to the ground/target. The energy beam does seem to be electrically charged since Sun conducts it through metal, however the jarring difference in movement in appearance means it fails our standards for Lightning Feats.

For reference, this is what real lightning looks like while moving through air. (EDIT: Wrong link, oof. Fixed now)

Lightning that has demonstrated at a minimum a few properties that real lightning has, and significantly less properties that lightning shouldn't have, can be considered real.
Click to expand...


It's even worse because we see real Lightning in the series and the beam looks and moves nothing like that. Therefore I wouldn't consider the Grimm lightning in this case to be MHS. I've also talked to other calc members off-site about this and they seem to agree that these facts make it fail our standards, too.
 
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Dargoo_Faust said:
This isn't them "dodging lightning multiple times". This is them running around the person trying to strike them with lightning in an attempt to make it harder to hit them.

Only the initial dodge is a solid feat for this (they do indeed move a distance before the bolts strike them), but then we have Mercury failing to avoid a hand-fired bolt from a weakened Amber shortly after this (happens at 10:18 for mobile users). Since Mercury began moving after the bolt was channeled through Amber the first time, this time actually had him with more notice and a bigger distance to begin moving, so it's a pretty massive anti-feat for Mercury.

Meanwhile we have the aforementioned Volume 5 Yang and Ruby having no reaction whatsoever to cloud-to-ground lightning until it hit, which if they were MHS in any capacity you'd imagine they'd have some reaction to it as it traveled thousands of meters to the ground.

I would be opposed to re-upgrading the speeds to MHS. It's fairly inconsistent in the series (and in the very scenes themselves where these feats happen) as opposed to feats of bullet-timing, which are consistent in just about every fight in the series.


This is a bad argument for a number of reasons and the same logic can also be applied to the bullets themselves ("why are bullets even a thing if everyone and their grandmother (literally) can avoid them effortlessly?", etc). However after looking at Kep's thread that wasn't his argument.
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You must have not seen what I said afterwards, but dodging multiples wasn't the point just that it happened.

Also, Mercury getting tagged by Amber is fine. He got pushed back from the wind, he started running and got hit. But he was still able to guard before it hit him.

You should likely consider that he is significantly closer to the source of the lightning, he definitely reacted as well. This also at the end of the fight where Mercury was getting smacked around by Amber. So he's not at full stamina like earlier in the fight. So if you could point out the contradiction with this one that'd be helpful.

Okay, you showed Yang and Weiss stopping after Raven struck down a bolt of lightning. What's the actual anti-feat here? They didn't dodge or react to something that wasn't going to hit them. And something that was outside their field of view until it was a couple of meters from the ground? They also can be caught off guard, this seems like you are reaching a bit.

Also, you don't even know how fast the bullets are. It is not even like they are normal bullets so I don't what the basis would be for classifying its speed.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
I really dont see why Merc getting hit by amber's other attacks is considered an anti-feat when in any other verse it would just be considered as Amber having MHS combat speed
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You know, I feel like we usually don't agree but yeah I'm with you on this one. I don't see how him getting hit with lightning contradicts Merc being able to dodge it. It doesn't even follow logically. It is like saying me hitting you with a water balloon means you can't dodge a water ballon. It just means he couldn't (really just "didn't") dodge that instance of lightning.
 
I just want to say that I'm neutral here. I stopped watching RWBY a whole ago, and my memories are fuzzy.

I know what I said was brought up during the downgrade to the speed, but I won't argue for it being true. Just pointed it out.
 
Community_Gamer said:
I don't see how him getting hit with lightning contradicts Merc being able to dodge it. It doesn't even follow logically. It is like saying me hitting you with a water balloon means you can't dodge a water ballon. It just means he couldn't (really just "didn't") dodge that instance of lightning.
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Correction - this is like saying someone who was looking directly at the person throwing a water balloon, had prior notice to the person who was about to throw it, and supposedly has feats that would let them view that water balloon as if it was a normal-speed moving object, just stared at the water baloon dumbly as it hit them, or alternatively, they weren't able to dodge the projectile. Assuming Mercury isn't a complete idiot it's a clear anti-feat.

If he could have dodged it, he would have, obviously, because he would probably want to avoid getting zapped by an angry Maiden.

Community_Gamer said:
Okay, you showed Yang and Weiss stopping after Raven struck down a bolt of lightning. What's the actual anti-feat here? They didn't dodge or react to something that wasn't going to hit them. And something that was outside their field of view until it was a couple of meters from the ground? They also can be caught off guard, this seems like you are reaching a bit.
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If they had feats of reacting to lightning they would have flinched as the lightning passed in front of them and hit the ground, not after. The argument here is that they can react to and dodge lightning at full speed - if this was actually the case then they would have seen the lightning as it was coming down in front of them and reacted accordingly during that timeframe. They can still see in front of themselves; they aren't blind.

They were also clearly taken back and surprised, having a fight-or-flight reaction, which, again, would have triggered earlier if they were real lightning timers. It's a clear-cut antifeat if we assume Yang and Weiss aren't blind.

Community_Gamer said:
Also, Mercury getting tagged by Amber is fine. He got pushed back from the wind, he started running and got hit. But he was still able to guard before it hit him.
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The wind wouldn't have prevented him from moving to the side. He wasn't being held in place by it.

WeeklyBattles said:
I really dont see why Merc getting hit by amber's other attacks is considered an anti-feat when in any other verse it would just be considered as Amber having MHS combat speed
Click to expand...

He got hit by her lightning, not one of her other attacks. Unless you're telling me that Amber's lightning isn't shooting at the speed of natural lightning?

Community_Gamer said:
Also, you don't even know how fast the bullets are. It is not even like they are normal bullets so I don't what the basis would be for classifying its speed.
Click to expand...

I wasn't actually arguing that, I was giving an example of an argument I through was silly and was agreeing with Weekly there. Which you responded to for some reason.

If you aren't doing that I have no clue where this is coming from.



Overall, my opinion hasn't changed. There are clear anti-feats against the cast being MHS+, only one true MHS+ feat for Mercury vs. the dozens upon dozens of consistent bullet-timing feats, so it can be tossed aside as an outlier. I see no reason to overturn the consensus on the previous CRT as no new arguments seem to be made.
 
I'm 100% on Dargoo's side here. There is only one MHS+ feat vs dozens upon dozens of clear cute anti-feats and a much more consistent bullet-timing scale.
 
Looking at that footage in slow mo though, it definitely isn't all that great. I'd be willing to bet that the bad animatoion has a lot to do with it, but...

For the first bolt, as I said above, it struck the ground faster than they began moving away. They did move their upper torso, but not their feet, and with the distance the bolt traveled for them to only do that, I doubt it'll be beyond high hypersonic.

For the second time, where she dodges the bolt, she began her back flip before the bolt is visible, and her feet are already off the ground by when it appears about ten meters away, and it still manages to land before she moves more than half a meter or so.

Second bolt, she just doesn't dodge. I mean, not sure what the idea was, but it plain out overlaps with her body.

Last bolt she dodges, it appears while she is already mid air, and lands before she does. As in... she doesn't even get to move her body to respond the the bolt that appeared, but it still misses her.
 
So a combination of bad animation and just them being repeatedly shown to be far, far slower than the lightning makes the feats in that scene even worse, I see.

At best we have a few feats that likely aren't even that might higher than the current ratings, at worst we have even more anti-feats and even more inconsistency VS. the massive abundance of consistency in bullet-timing.

Yeah, if my opinion had a bit of leeway before that I doubt there's much to be brought up here to change things significantly now. I just don't think MHS works or was meant to work for RWBY. Better to wait for later volumes with more Maiden action.
 
I mean, every time they are faced with ligntning in that battle they move less than a meter before it moves all the way from Amber's height in the air to them, so it seems rather blatant it is faster.

There might be something worth calculating in there, but I highly doubt it'll come out to MHS
 
Dargoo_Faust said:
Correction - this is like saying someone who was looking directly at the person throwing a water balloon, had prior notice to the person who was about to throw it, and supposedly has feats that would let them view that water balloon as if it was a normal-speed moving object, just stared at the water baloon dumbly as it hit them, or alternatively, they weren't able to dodge the projectile. Assuming Mercury isn't a complete idiot it's a clear anti-feat.

If he could have dodged it, he would have, obviously, because he would probably want to avoid getting zapped by an angry Maiden.


If they had feats of reacting to lightning they would have flinched as the lightning passed in front of them and hit the ground, not after. The argument here is that they can react to and dodge lightning at full speed - if this was actually the case then they would have seen the lightning as it was coming down in front of them and reacted accordingly during that timeframe. They can still see in front of themselves; they aren't blind.

They were also clearly taken back and surprised, having a fight-or-flight reaction, which, again, would have triggered earlier if they were real lightning timers. It's a clear-cut antifeat if we assume Yang and Weiss aren't blind.


The wind wouldn't have prevented him from moving to the side. He wasn't being held in place by it.



He got hit by her lightning, not one of her other attacks. Unless you're telling me that Amber's lightning isn't shooting at the speed of natural lightning?



I wasn't actually arguing that, I was giving an example of an argument I through was silly and was agreeing with Weekly there. Which you responded to for some reason.

If you aren't doing that I have no clue where this is coming from.



Overall, my opinion hasn't changed. There are clear anti-feats against the cast being MHS+, only one true MHS+ feat for Mercury vs. the dozens upon dozens of consistent bullet-timing feats, so it can be tossed aside as an outlier. I see no reason to overturn the consensus on the previous CRT as no new arguments seem to be made.
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In your first point, you just restructured the analogy while failing to grasp what was being analogized. And you didn't actually point out the contradict either. You pretty just was the same thing.

A pretty similar response from your first point. We understand that you think its anti-feat but how does that contradict them being lightning timers. Also, you should know that Yang and Weiss don't have any feats of dodging lightning. Nor do they even scale to it at that point in the Volume. Side point, but we don't know whether or not they saw it. We just know they stopped moving right after it struck and shielded themselves from dust. Either way, they didn't react but why does that mean they can't react at all?

You didn't address the actual point on that one. He stilled guarded before it him, not that we actually know where the bolt was moving in relation to him at all. We just see it being sent and then the impact.

The bullet thing was essentially mean inquiring how you would know where the dust bullets scale. Useless its something dumb like their bullets, so they are average bullet speed until said or shown otherwise.

These aren't technically "new" arguments I'm pretty I have brought it up before. But regardless you don't seem to be fully comprehending them. But I suppose I don't really need to convince you specifically of anything.
 
Dargoo_Faust said:
So a combination of bad animation and just them being repeatedly shown to be far, far slower than the lightning makes the feats in that scene even worse, I see.

At best we have a few feats that likely aren't even that might higher than the current ratings, at worst we have even more anti-feats and even more inconsistency VS. the massive abundance of consistency in bullet-timing.

Yeah, if my opinion had a bit of leeway before that I doubt there's much to be brought up here to change things significantly now. I just don't think MHS works or was meant to work for RWBY. Better to wait for later volumes with more Maiden action.
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Well, I think the last part was just conjectured unless you meant as more of a belief you held. Rather than something justifiable.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
I mean, every time they are faced with ligntning in that battle they move less than a meter before it moves all the way from Amber's height in the air to them, so it seems rather blatant it is faster.

There might be something worth calculating in there, but I highly doubt it'll come out to MHS
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What's faster? The lightning? I don't believe anyone was saying they were faster than lightning. At least I wasn't.
 
I feel we should get the calcs furst and decide if they are outliers later? Everything up till High Hypersonic+ would be a X10 increase, which with all the up scaling wouldn't be too insane.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
I feel we should get the calcs furst and decide if they are outliers later? Everything up till High Hypersonic+ would be a X10 increase, which with all the up scaling wouldn't be too insane.
Click to expand...
I understand that but if people have problems with the base of the feats, then even if the calc is good and provides substantial results. What would it matter if its people are going to be swayed to the opposing side and reject it? So I think it imperative we smash this shit now so we don't waste individuals' time and energy. Because it seems like the only people who agree for the change are myself and @WeeklyBattles .
 
> you just restructured the analogy while failing to grasp what was being analogized. And you didn't actually point out the contradict either. You pretty just was the same thing.

I restructured the analogy because the previous analogy was didn't actually line up with anything that happened with Mercury. Mercury has every reason to avoid getting hit by a bolt like that yet he didn't despite the fact that he could easily have seen it coming all the way up until the point where it's already been fired, if MHS is to be believed. Your analogy didn't account for the majority of the context in that feat, and was therefore faulty.

> Also, you should know that Yang and Weiss don't have any feats of dodging lightning. Nor do they even scale to it at that point in the Volume.

And you should know this is Yang and Weiss in Volume 5. They fight Mercury in this volume and aren't speedblitzed by him.

> These aren't technically "new" arguments I'm pretty I have brought it up before. But regardless you don't seem to be fully comprehending them. But I suppose I don't really need to convince you specifically of anything.

By "not new" I mean that these same exact points were debated and rejected on Kep's thread.

You don't have to convince me of anything, yes, but at the same time you should make arguments for the feats that don't involve having to (I'm not saying you're making these assumptions directly, but you'd need to for the logic to work here) make assumptions that Yang/Weiss can't see things directly in front of them, or that Mercury decided for no reason to let himself get hit by something he could have, if calcs are to be believed, easily dodged.

> I know but you can justify an opinion. That why I wanted clarification.

Well, I have been arguing this opinion for around a day on this thread, so I wouldn't say it's unsubstantiated or unjustified, I'd just say there's people who disagree with it. I'm stating that my opinion hasn't changed with the debate so far - I haven't conceded the argument yet, clearly.

> You didn't address the actual point on that one. He stilled guarded before it him, not that we actually know where the bolt was moving in relation to him at all. We just see it being sent and then the impact.

Going by the feat in a frame-by-frame, there's a frame where the bolt is right next to him and the next frame is it hitting him while he's blocking. From how it's framed it looks like it hit him, then he began blocking, although we don't actually see him move to do this on screen because there's literally no movement between these frames I could find. Blame the RWBY animators for that one.

So no, there isn't evidence of him guarding before it hit him.

WeeklyBattles said:
There are four actually
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If any of these four are the Grimm lightning calcs above, I have already explained that they fail our standards for realistic lightning.
 
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