Riolu vs Ness [STOMP]

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

Rules

• Both 8-C
• Speed equalized
• Fight takes place in Wyndon Stadium
• Starting distance is 20 meters
• SBA for anything else

Voting
Baby dog:
(0.62 Tons of TNT)

Literal Child:
(1.1 Tons of TNT)

Inconclusive:

 

[Imaginym]

Why doesn't Ness's Powers & Abilities list what he has in Mid Game despite that he has a Mid Game Key, which is what is being used in this match?

 

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

Why doesn't Ness's Powers & Abilities list what he has in Mid Game despite that he has a Mid Game Key, which is what is being used in this match?

no idea

Anyways, bump

 

[koopa3144]

You should restrict Ness's Passive Fate Manipulation & Minor Probability Manipulation

 

[StrymULTRA]

Why doesn't Ness's Powers & Abilities list what he has in Mid Game despite that he has a Mid Game Key, which is what is being used in this match?

It's literally called "Early to Late game", also because Levels are not canon so for the sake of making it easier, we just composited everything he learns from leveling in a single key.

Besides, other than Fate Hax, Rioulu has nowhere the same experience Ness does, his attacks are mostly the same as Riolu's (and Ness has even more), plus Ness can apply status effects.

And if Riolu tries to fight Ness physically, the former gets destroyed due to the latter's massively higher LS. Besides, Ness has almost a x2 advantage (1.1 Tons vs 0.62), so yeah...

Even without fate hax Ness stomps.

 

[Imaginym]

It's literally called "Early to Late game", also because Levels are not canon so for the sake of making it easier, we just composited everything he learns from leveling in a single key.

Okay but what Powers & Abilities, SPECIFICALLY, does "Mid Game" Key have? Because Ness has a Key called "Mid Game", but not a powers & Abilities section for that.
Which does Early Game have for that matter?

There is nothing indicating which he has when.

Besides, other than Fate Hax, Rioulu has nowhere the same experience Ness does, his attacks are mostly the same as Riolu's (and Ness has even more), plus Ness can apply status effects.

And if Riolu tries to fight Ness physically, the former gets destroyed due to the latter's massively higher LS. Besides, Ness has almost a x2 advantage (1.1 Tons vs 0.62), so yeah...

Even without fate hax Ness stomps.

These are somewhat compelling.

Riolu might be less overwhelmed if Bloodlusted. It may also be worth it to consider IQ Skills.
What do other folks think about that?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Okay but what Powers & Abilities, SPECIFICALLY, does "Mid Game" Key have? Because Ness has a Key called "Mid Game", but not a powers & Abilities section for that.
Which does Early Game have for that matter?

There is nothing indicating which he has when.

Because that's stuff he gets from leveling up. Given we have no indicator of what level he is in canon, we just put everything in a single key.

This obviously isn't counting the Magician stuff given that's lore based than level based.

It may also be worth it to consider IQ Skills.

That... Doesn't really mean much. Most of the things Riolu does isn't exactly enough to overcome the sheer amount of stuff Ness has.

Riolu simply gets out haxed, outskilled and beaten in physical stats.

 

[Imaginym]

Because that's stuff he gets from leveling up. Given we have no indicator of what level he is in canon, we just put everything in a single key.

Okay, do we at least have an idea of which PSI Abilities he should have in Mid Game?

Because so far, this seems like a problem to me that may warrant a CRT.

This obviously isn't counting the Magician stuff given that's lore based than level based.

You mean Magicant, right?
Where does that fall again? Late or End Game? Mid Game?

That... Doesn't really mean much. Most of the things Riolu does isn't exactly enough to overcome the sheer amount of stuff Ness has.

Riolu simply gets out haxed, outskilled and beaten in physical stats.

Perhaps I should ask: Basis of Mid-Game Ness's level of skill?

Also, it feels a bit disingenous to say Ness is mid-game but has all his Late/End-Game hax because "We don't know what he gets at which level".
Which things would you say are what levels of probability for "Mid Game" Ness to have?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Okay, do we at least have an idea of which PSI Abilities he should have in Mid Game?

Because so far, this seems like a problem to me that may warrant a CRT.

This is just nitpicking for no reason.

And yeah, we don't, so we just did for simplicity.

And don't make a CRT just because a verse you like is on the losing side, this is a very petty move and it's not even the first time you do stuff like this.

Where does that fall again? Late or End Game? Mid Game?

End game.

Perhaps I should ask: Basis of Mid-Game Ness's level of skill?

Basically him defeating lots of different opponents, ranging from plants, to vehicles, to various animals to also robots sent to conquer planets.

 

[Imaginym]

This is just nitpicking for no reason.

Ness has a P&A key where it's not known what P&A specifically he has. Just "some of these" probably.

And yeah, we don't, so we just did for simplicity.

And don't make a CRT just because a verse you like is on the losing side, this is a very petty move and it's not even the first time you do stuff like this.

I don't care who wins this, if Ness wins, so be it, but I value thoroughness & proper consideration of the viewpoints of the debates, including the opposition.

As is, Ness's P&A for his whole key involved in this match are extremely nebulous, I'd say.
& to me, that's a huge impediment & problem, especially if you're to argue those deliberately kept vague P&A are IMPORTANT to this match's verdict, as you so claim.

Basically him defeating lots of different opponents, ranging from plants, to vehicles, to various animals to also robots sent to conquer planets.

That much I know.

Ness beats a variety of enemies, but how does he do it?

In many circumstances, he smashes them with a baseball bat, or uses a psionic technique. He often has the help of his teammates, although, especially in the lategame, Paula, Jeff & Poo are Ness's inferiors, statistically, both lorewise & in gameplay.

Mobile Sprouts, Cattlesnakes, Ghosts, that robot with a nuclear reactor, Starmen, a Diamond Dog, giant moles all claiming they're the 3rd strongest.... There's a whole menagerie of miscellaneous monstrosities.

But what did he do to demonstrate skill against them?
Did he go into the battles & just bash them in the face with his baseball bat repeatedly while just healing himself as necessary?
Did he spam PSI Rockin'/PSI Flash against groups?

I'm aware there are many possible paths a protagonist can take.

Still, assessing the value of beating a variety of enemies requires knowing how the enemies were beaten, because what the opposition did & how it was worked against is an important part of skill; Knowing Ness can beat a variety of enemies is great. Knowing how those victories went is better.

Also, for what is worth, Ness's Intelligence section does give some very appreciable insight:
Intelligence: Genius (Regarded as a bright child by several characters and became a master of PSI with no formal training. Serves as the leader of the chosen four, with his decisions and judgment overriding even that of Jeff Andonuts, an extraordinary genius. Stated in the tea break scene that his in-born intelligence and courage is what brought him through his journey. His combat prowess should be comparable to that of Poo, who reached a level of intelligence necessary to learn PK Starstorm and is a skilled warrior)

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ness has a P&A key where it's not known what P&A specifically he has. Just "some of these" probably.

Baseless Assumption.

Besides, we have no way to pinpoint the level, we do this compositing thing in other RPGs anyway, so Earthbound getting it too it's a problem that YOU have.

 

[Imaginym]

Baseless Assumption.

& you yourself said:

And yeah, we don't, so we just did for simplicity.

You said it's not known which P&A Ness has.

It's literally called "Early to Late game", also because Levels are not canon so for the sake of making it easier, we just composited everything he learns from leveling in a single key.

& you put everything into 1 key, but then didn't specify which Early game doesn't have, & which Mid Game doesn't have, because it isn't known/decided.

So how is it untrue that Ness has a P&A key where it's not known what P&A specifically he has, & just uncertainly only has some of the P&A listed?

Besides, we have no way to pinpoint the level, we do this compositing thing in other RPGs anyway, so Earthbound getting it too it's a problem that YOU have.

Anyway, I suppose the case is, Ness's Keys are called "Early", "Mid" & "Late" Game, but they're based on Story Progression, rather than levelling, yet assume some abilities don't go to him because they require high enough levels?


& perhaps in an attempt to be more productive:
Which abilities do you advocate cause Ness to haxstomp?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Which abilities do you advocate cause Ness to haxstomp?

He basically has everything Riolu has + Forecefields, Self Healing and a much wider range of attacks.

 

[Imaginym]

He basically has everything Riolu has + Forecefields, Self Healing and a much wider range of attacks.

Omitting the justifications for brevity's sake....

Ness's P&A from the "Early to Late Game" P&A Key:
By himself:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Genius Intelligence, Weapon Mastery, Regeneration, Non-Physical Interaction, Limited Pocket Reality Manipulation, Possible Passive Fate Manipulation & Minor Probability Manipulation, Limited Resistance to Time Stop, Resistance to Radiation Manipulation
PSI Powers:
Telekinesis, Teleportation, Healing, Status Effect Inducement, Light Manipulation and Durability Negation, Energy Projection, Forcefield and Attack Reflection/Reduction

Optional Items:
Damage Reduction, Transformation, Fire Manipulation and Statistics Amplification, Limited Existence Erasure, Poison Manipulation and Curse Manipulation, Limited Matter Manipulation, Light Manipulation and Status Effect Inducement, Limited Damage Boost and Poison Manipulation, Healing, Limited Attack Reflection, Resistance to Light Manipulation, Status Effect Inducement, Fire Manipulation and Ice Manipulation


Riolu:

Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Energy Manipulation, Statistics Amplification, Aura, Metal Manipulation, Precognition, Can read minds, Telepathy, Instinctive Reaction, Analytical Prediction, Martial Arts, Non-Physical Interaction, Fire Manipulation, Water Manipulation, Air Manipulation, Sound Manipulation, Chi Manipulation, Darkness Manipulation, Staff Expert, Forcefield Creation, Homing Attack, Healing, Can create energy blades, Power Mimicry, Attack Reflection, Can lower opponent's defenses, Can charge a series of strikes that pierces shields, Can become stronger the weaker he is through Reversal, Can cause flinching, burns, and paralysis with Dark Pulse or Crunch, Blaze Kick, and Force Palm respectively, Empathic Manipulation, Its aura increases when under distress, Durability Negation, Extrasensory Perception, Cannot be made to flinch, but if it does, its speed increases, Dynamax, Resistance to Dark, Bug and Rock attacks


Compared to Riolu, Ness lacks:
Precognition, Mind Reading & Telepathy (Surprising to me as well.), Precognition/Analytical Prediction, Instinctive Reaction, Martial Arts, several kinds of elemental manipulation, Weapon Mastery (Odd that Ness lacks; He's renowned for using bats, although it'd be nice to get details on in what ways.), Power Mimicry, Statistics Reduction, Empathic Manipulation (Also surprising), Reactive Power Level, Durability Negation (Though how Riolu's DN works or even what it isn't elaborated, with the justification saying it's useless in a match.)....


Even if you sare saying "basically", saying Mid Game Ness has everything Riolu has is a bit of an exaggeration.
Not to mention, even with some if it being useable directly from bag (Like the bottle rockets & such.), Ness can't have all of his Equipment at once. (Plus, the Key is labelled as OPTIONAL Items. A bit weird considering Ness's Standard Equipment section lacks an Optional Equipment section, but nonetheless.)


Also, I'd argue that Riolu has a better Stamina considering justifications:

Ness:
Stamina: Superhuman (Can fight for long periods of time. Can take mortal wounds and still manage to heal himself)

Riolu:
Stamina: Superhuman (Even as Riolu, they can crest three canyons and two valleys in one night. Pokemon can clear dozens upon dozens of floors in dungeons, each floor filled with numerous threats. Has significantly more stamina than Raticate, who can easily swim across oceans, and should have comparable stamina to Poliwrath, who experiences literally no stamina decrease)

(The comparisons to Raticate & Poliwrath are likely for Lucario, & not erroneously unseparated into a key of their own.)

Also, this probably doesn't account for IQ Skills which are currently in use on Pokemon profiles:

Some of the notable ones for Riolu's IQ Group:

Spoiler: Riolu's likely relevant IQ Skills

Nonsleeper:

The Pokémon resists sleep inflicted on it from traps and enemy moves.

Prevents the Pokémon from falling asleep for any reason, including Sleep Seed and Rest.

This is a problem if you're counting on Ness using his Hypnosis or PK Flash's Sleep effects.
Counterbasher:

The Pokémon takes on the Counter status, so it counterstrikes under certain conditions. Its Defense will be reduced by 1 level, however.

12% chance to counterattack adjacent foe for 100% of damage taken. Cuts corners, and stacks with other Counter effects.

(In the games this IQ Skill is a part of, -1 DEF is 70% of Base.)
Clutch Performer:

If the Pokémon's HP gets dangerously low, its evasiveness is boosted by 2 levels.

Activates below 25% HP. No Guard's effect prevents this skill from working, even for the user.

At low Stamina (Approximately one quarter of max, if the gameplay is to be gone by.), it becomes more evasive. In the MD games, +2 levels of Evasion is about 30% less likely to be hit, but it's unclear how this ability functions otherwise.
Practice Swinger:

When the Pokémon fails to hit the target with an attack or move, its Attack and Special Attack get boosted for only the next turn.

Attack and Special Attack are boosted until the Pokémon successfully deals damage or the next turn ends (whichever occurs first). In the case of multi-target moves or multi-strike moves, the boost only applies to a single hit.

You may wish to note that the right box is Bulbapedia's notes. The left is the in-game description. In MD game gameplay, 1 stage above base is about 20% more, but it's not linear. Point is, if Ness keeps avoiding Riolu's attacks, it'll hit harder.
Concentrator:

The Pokémon is focused on making its attacks hit, so its accuracy is boosted by 1 level. Its evasion is reduced by 1 level, however.

All moves with 5 accuracy stars (and some moves with 4 accuracy stars, along with Blizzard) will no longer miss under normal conditions. Overrides the accuracy bonus granted to female Pokémon. No Guard's effect prevents this skill from working, even for the user.

TL;DR - Passive accuracy boost at the cost of evasion.
(If you're wondering, most such IQ Skills are on the profile, but worded as if Lucario's the only 'mon on it, & not worded ideally, IMHO. For example

• Concentrator: Lucario becomes more focused on hitting the enemy, increasing its accuracy by one stage, proportionally decreasing its evasion.

Brick-Tough:

The Pokémon's body becomes tougher, which gives it more HP. This IQ Skill can't be turned off.

Increases maximum HP by 10.

Even more Stamina.
Aggressor:

The Pokémon becomes very aggressive, so its Attack and Special Attack are both boosted by 1 level. Its Defense and Special Defense are both reduced by 1 level, however.

Stacks with Counter Basher and an ally's Cheerleader.

As mentioned, +1 ATK in MD is +20% of base, & -1 DEF means being at 70% of base but it's nonlinear, & the Defensive stats use different scales. I bring up such numbers because of a lack of their functionality being displayed outside of gameplay.
Intimidator:

Under certain conditions the Pokémon can intimidate an enemy that attacks, which gives it a Cringe status condition.

33% chance to cancel an incoming close-ranged attack, regardless of the direction the attacker is facing. PP is still deducted from the attacker. Attackers with Inner Focus are unaffected. Does not affect line-of-sight moves, room-range moves, or thrown items. Can affect allies if they target the Intimidator with a close-ranged move for any reason.

TL;DR for IQ Skills: Riolu resists Sleep Manipulation, can strike back at Ness just as hard as he can hit it, gets a passive boost to its evasion when its Stamina gets low (Around a quarter.), gets a power boost until it hits an attack if it misses an attack, if it uses a certain, & has passively boosted Accuracy at the cost of its Evasion, has a boost to its Stamina, & is by default, already at about 1.2x AP, & 0.7x Durability from the Aggressor IQ Skill alone, & can prevent close-ranged attacks via Fear Manipulation (One third of the time according to game mechanics.).

& again, the columns on the left are in-game descriptions, columns on the right are Bulbapedia's notes, & game mechanics are noted because IQ Skills aren't depicted outside of gameplay, so it's unclear how they work otherwise.


There's also the fact that Riolu, according to the profile, has a Speed boost for some of its moves:

• Prankster: Riolu-only, allows to use status moves even faster than normal, often allowing to move first.

These include Level-Up moves like Endure, Work Up (Boosts both physical & "Special" offenses by 1 stage. In mainline gameplay, +1 is 50% of base.), Screech (Sound Manipulation that lowers Durability.), Swords Dance (+2, about 100% of base, in Physical Attack each use.), Copycat, Nasty Plot (+2 "Special" Attack.),

As well as Egg Moves like Detect, & Howl (+1 Physical Attack, which is about 50% of base, based on mainline games.). Agility (+2 Speed.), Iron Defense (+2 Physical Defense.), Mind Reader (Sensing the target's movements with its mind to ensure its next attack hits. Somewhat in-character, considering Riolu's Pokedex entries.), among other options.

& again, those are just Status Moves -& not even all of them, just the ones I thought might be relevant.), since that's what Prankster boosts, not all of Riolu's attacks or such.

Besides the silly stuff that can be done with Copycat when it's faster than Ness by default (Ex: Copy Ness's own attacks, roll the die against Ness if PSI Flash doesn't work out well enough, use an attack of its own then copy it again with Copycat to effectively strike Ness twice), Riolu has a few other options.

& having seemingly higher Stamina, & a plethora of moves to effectively double its stats, Riolu could definitely have the Stamina & opportunity to boost higher than Ness.

It's only 0.62 vs 1.1 after all; Riolu will be higher in the move's affected stat after a single, Iron Defense, Swords Dance, Nasty Plot or Agility. It could be worse for Ness if using Screech is in-character. That said, the mainline Pokemon games do limit such boosts to a maximum of 6 stages above unboosted, meaning such boosts are limited to boosting the Pokemon to only quadruple its base in that stat.

Still 2.48, potentially in AP, Durability & Speed, vs 1.1 & no Speed Boosts is potentially concerning.


So again.

Which hax are you saying Ness stomps with?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I am not reading all of that.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Plus, Ness can still self-heal, and use the other effects of PK Flash (like uncontrollable crying or paralysis, or even instant KO if lucky enough), or even reflect Riolu's stuff against itself.

Meaning that your stamina advantage is not exactly relevant, Riolu lacks self healing after all, and given that Ness is a RPG character, he'd use the best move it has, which is either PK Rocking or PK Flash.

And yeah, there's also Fate and Probability Hax.

 

[Imaginym]

I am not reading all of that.

Then read the TL;DRs.
Also, you didn't come here to debate a Versus Thread?

EDIT: Apologies, I lost track a bit. Point is, I appreciate thoroughness & proper consideration. So I'd appreciate it if you would be willing to debate while tolerating my level of detail & considering such details. I do apologize for any bother.

Plus, Ness can still self-heal, and use the other effects of PK Flash (like uncontrollable crying or paralysis, or even instant KO if lucky enough), or even reflect Riolu's stuff against itself.

• PK Flash: A glorious flash of light that has various effects. At the Omega level, it has a 37.5% chance to cause enemies to cry uncontrollably, a 12.5% chance to paralyze, a 12.5% chance to make enemies feel strange, and a 37.5% chance to cause instant death. Naturally resisted by some enemies.

Uncontrollable crying is the most likely outcome besides instant death, & that's still worse odds than a coin flip.
Not to mention Riolu can likely deal with crying's interference in vision via Aura. (& also being frightened or sad makes Riolu's aura larger, whatever that does.)
The uncontrollable crying PK Flash can inflict doesn't prevent attacking, just makes physical attacks more likely to miss.

Diamond	The aura that emanates from its body intensifies to alert others if it is afraid or sad.

Platinum	It has the peculiar power of being able to see emotions such as joy and rage in the form of waves.

Sun	It can discern the physical and emotional states of people, Pokémon, and other natural things from the shape of their aura waves.

Ultra Moon	It uses waves called auras to communicate with others of its kind. It doesn't make any noise during this time, so its enemies can't detect it.

As well as being something Riolu can copy itself. & Riolu will be faster than Ness when copying PK Flash, despite that Riolu resists 1 of the Status Effects & Ness only Resists them with his Optional Items.

Also, OHKO effects can be survived by Endure, which is already boosted priority in gameplay, & faster here via Prankster, seemingly.
Or just dodged via Precognition with Detect.

So, PK Flash:
1. 37.5% chance to cause uncontrollable crying. (Can be worked around via aura sensing & seeing emotions, may make Riolu stronger since the emotions will makes its aura larger.)
2. 37.5% chance of instant death.
3. 12.5% chance of inflicting feeling Strangeness, which makes them aim the wrong way.
4. 12.5% chance of inflicting Paralysis, which prevents any action.

The entire move can be avoided by Detect, survived (Even the OHKO effect.) via Endure, Copied to be used against Ness (& Riolu will be faster, so if it's who shoots first, Riolu could finish executing first.), when Ness also has no resistance to any of the effects, or just not be picked in favor of Ness's favorite, PSI Rockin, especially if it's early on.

Or Riolu could just hit him to try & break his focus. For example, with Quick Attack, which naturally has increased Speed.

Or use Agility to move out of range, a move that not only gives it +2 Speed, which it has even higher speed while executing due to Prankster, & is all about doing movement anyway.
Or in theory, move out of range regularly; Even with their hundreds of meters range, the slowest speed in this match is 308.7 meters per second.

To say nothing of Ness instead leading with PSI Rockin, the move that, quote the game is, "Ness' special PSI that is after his favorite thing.", especially early on.

The point is, even if Ness does lead with it, Riolu has multiple answers against it, & can even mitigate it, including against the 2 most likely results (Crying & Instant Death.) that aren't 1 in 8 chances, not to mention Riolu being able to use it against Ness. If Ness rolls bad & Riolu copies it, Ness doesn't have Endure or such to bail him out.

Meaning that your stamina advantage is not exactly relevant, Riolu lacks self healing after all, and given that Ness is a RPG character, he'd use the best move it has, which is either PK Rocking or PK Flash.

I assume Ness's capacity to heal being limited by his Psychic Points is considered analogus to his Stamina, which stuff like Lifeup heals?
PK Flash taking Riolu out of the fight entirely is a less than 37.5% chance; Less than 1 in 4 times.
Less than 5 out of 10 times if we consider the 1 in 8 chance of inflicting Paralysis. But again, Riolu has answers.

Half the time, it'll barely be a problem because Aura/emotion vision, let alone take Riolu out of the fight, or just make it aim wrong, if it is aiming. 37.5% of the time, it's something that might win the match unless it's Endured/Detected & thus survived/evaded, & one eighth of the time, not being Endured/Detected it's near match-deciding, depending on how long Paralysis in EB lasts.

Also, Ness is not a player character placeholder entirely, he's given his own characterization.

He named a technique for his favorite thing. He demonstrates being kind & selfless. He uses a wad of bills to free the Runaway 5 instead of for himself. He gets literally Homesick. He has a landscape, Magicant, that is his own mind. There are Flying Men to express his courage, with a grave for each that falls. In Magicant, Ness's mind, Porky wants to be friends, despite how awful Porky is in reality. Magicant even has monsters he's previously fought. His younger self asks him if he's still interested in comics & games. His nightmare is the last force of evil in his own heart. He readily sacrificed his physical body to be a robot to defeat Giygas. According to the EarthBound Player's Guide, his cap has his favorite baseball team's logo on it.

Ness has his own personality, & while much of him is how the player character navigates the world of EarthBound, I don't think he would always entirely do what's optimal if left to his own characterization.

Anyway, Stamina does matter in the event that PK Flash's coin flip goes wrong, such as being dodged, survived, copied & used against Ness, or just moved out of range of it. Heck, a good portion of the time that it does hit, Stamina still matters because it'll just be impeding aiming, & not even effectively.

& if Ness goes in close, he has to deal with all of Riolu's IQ Skills & such.

Also, you still haven't said just how long Ness's Stamina equates to; A Riolu can spend a whole night doing vigorous activity, potentially longer considering MD has exploring a dungeon take up a whole day, which is filled with exploration & multiple hostiles.

So in theory, how do we know Riolu's Stamina isn't so much higher that it can still take hits from Ness in regular combat long enough to turn the scales?

Stamina: Superhuman (Can fight for long periods of time. Can take mortal wounds and still manage to heal himself)

What are "long periods of time"? A few hours?

Stamina is also relevant due to Reversal, which gets far more powerful if the user is at a low amount of it.

To abstract a bit: If someone has 250 of their 1,000 points of Stamina, & someone else has 25 of their 100 points of Stamina, one of their 25% is probably going a long way; AKA, the range where Reversal is very dangerous for Ness could be quite big. (As well as becoming more evasive due to Clutch Performer.)

And yeah, there's also Fate and Probability Hax.

Possible Passive Fate Manipulation & Minor Probability Manipulation (As a Chosen One, his destiny is part of an universal system which is the Truth of The Universe, as showcased from Porky Minch empowering Giygas in an attempt to prevent the latter's prophesied defeat against the Chosen Ones, making Giygas strong enough to effortessly overpower the Chosen Ones and giving to him the 99% of chances to win, but still resulting in Giygas being defeated in the end after that Paula called the Player to help her and the other Chosen Ones in surviving against him, although is debatable if this system of fate was actively changing fate to ensure the Chosen Ones' survival and success in their mission to defeat Giygas)


1. That's a Possible ability.
2. How do we know it'd prevent him being knocked out & waking up later?
3. Riolu is not Giygas, nor the ultimate evil & such.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also, OHKO effects can be survived by Endure, which is already boosted priority in gameplay, & faster here via Prankster, seemingly.
Or just dodged via Precognition with Detect.

You talk like Riolu has prior knownledge about that though. Also, can you show me where Riolu has even read minds? I do not remember that.

Or Riolu could just hit him to try & break his focus. For example, with Quick Attack, which naturally has increased Speed.

Or use Agility to move out of range, a move that not only gives it +2 Speed, which it has even higher speed while executing due to Prankster, & is all about doing movement anyway.
Or in theory, move out of range regularly; Even with their hundreds of meters range, the slowest speed in this match is 308.7 meters per second.

PK Flash is explicitly a flash of light with huge AoE, he ain't dodging that buddy. Plus, physical attacks are not that good, given that Ness can create shields which can reflect or lower the damage of physical attacks, meaning that Melee combat definitely is not a good option here.

He named a technique for his favorite thing. He demonstrates being kind & selfless. He uses a wad of bills to free the Runaway 5 instead of for himself. He gets literally Homesick. He has a landscape, Magicant, that is his own mind. There are Flying Men to express his courage, with a grave for each that falls. In Magicant, Ness's mind, Porky wants to be friends, despite how awful Porky is in reality. Magicant even has monsters he's previously fought. His younger self asks him if he's still interested in comics & games. His nightmare is the last force of evil in his own heart. He readily sacrificed his physical body to be a robot to defeat Giygas. According to the EarthBound Player's Guide, his cap has his favorite baseball team's logo on it.

And? It does not change that he's still a playable character with a pre-set leading move. My point still stands.

So in theory, how do we know Riolu's Stamina isn't so much higher that it can still take hits from Ness in regular combat long enough to turn the scales?

I dunno here kek. What I mean is that Ness has more ways to end the fight quickly than Riolu does.

1. That's a Possible ability.

So?

2. How do we know it'd prevent him being knocked out & waking up later?

Assuming Riolu can.

3. Riolu is not Giygas, nor the ultimate evil & such.

What is the thing that matters is that killing is not an option here.

Besides... I have no idea why the Opional Equipment is listed as Standard in that section, ngl.

 

[Imaginym]

You talk like Riolu has prior knownledge about that though. Also, can you show me where Riolu has even read minds? I do not remember that.

These may be relevant:
Mind Reader: The user senses the target's movements with its mind to ensure its next attack does not miss the target.
Also, Pokedex entries:

Platinum	It has the peculiar power of being able to see emotions such as joy and rage in the form of waves.

Omega Ruby	It uses the shapes of auras, which change according to emotion, to communicate with others.

Sun	It can discern the physical and emotional states of people, Pokémon, and other natural things from the shape of their aura waves.

Legends: Arceus	Though infantile in appearance, it has the mysterious ability to read the minds of humans. The pure of heart are met with Riolu's approval, while those of ill nature earn only its loathing.

Scarlet	They communicate with one another using their auras. They are able to run all through the night.

PK Flash is explicitly a flash of light with huge AoE, he ain't dodging that buddy.

Again, Hundreds of Meters of range versus over 300 meters per second in Speed Equalized.

Plus, physical attacks are not that good, given that Ness can create shields which can reflect or lower the damage of physical attacks, meaning that Melee combat definitely is not a good option here.

Shape of the shields?
Because if they don't encompass Ness's whole body, they can be maneuvered around.

Also, Riolu has a move for that:
Feint:
This attack can hit a target using a move such as Protect or Detect. This also lifts the effects of those moves.

If there's a barrier, Riolu can simply punch through it with that move. In gameplay, it's heightened priority as well, so Riolu may be moving faster than usual, too, when using this, similar to Quick Attack.

And? It does not change that he's still a playable character with a pre-set leading move. My point still stands.

It is not pre-set, Ness has his own personality that'd influence how he'd lead.
He's been shown to get homesick for his family, give to those in need, selflessly sacrifice himself for others, remember the fallen (Flying Men), & even want to be friends with a mortal enemy like Porky, as well as name his PSI Rockin after his favorite thing.

So PSI Rockin would be his opening move if anything, given he named it for his favorite thing.
As opposed to going for PK Flash as a No Mercy One Hit Kill, when Ness is still in-character & would probably rather knock out or drive away this hostile animal-like creature, no?

I dunno here kek. What I mean is that Ness has more ways to end the fight quickly than Riolu does.

The problem is that PK Flash is only debilitating less than half the time, when it inflicts instant death AND doesn't get Endured or dodged via Detect.
Or copied by his faster opponent, causing Ness to get one shot again because he doesn't resist any of PK Flash's hax, except WITH like, 2 of the Optional Items he could be wearing & we don't even know if Optional stuff is present.

The other half of the time, Riolu just aims bad because Numbness -& aiming bad doesn't matter if it's choosing to use a set-up move at that time like Agility, Iron Defense, etc.- or inflicts Crying, which can be ignored because Riolu regularly uses Aura to see beings via emotions & can read minds. It'll know where Ness is.

& as said, if Riolu is using set up like Agility, Iron Defense, Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, etc. it is doing so faster than Ness is doing his moves, even more so if it uses Agility.

Not to mention Riolu's aura gets bigger, likely meaning stronger, when it gets afraid or sad.

& as ineffectual as Crying is, it's EQUALLY as likely as Instant Death, at 37.5%.

& Riolu decides it likes what PK Flash, Prankster means its faster when using Copycat. So Riolu can spam PK Flash faster than Ness can to roll on that more often.

So?

So how do we know its involved, allowed & applicable in this match.

Assuming Riolu can.

3 Swords Dances or 3 Nasty Plots & Riolu is 2.5x stronger than Ness. Considering its faster when not using attacking moves, can make itself faster, can read his mind (So it'll probably know if this unfamiliar hostile human is thinking "I need to try to one shot this monster".), has better Stamina, & has multiple moves to ensure survival, I think it can find opportunity.

Also, if it comes to melee combat, Riolu can use Counter &/or with Endure first to deliberately take a hit & then strike back with twice the damage dealt to it.
There's also Reversal, which gets a massive power boost at low Stamina.
In the anime term:

JN027 - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Galarian Farfetch'd appears, effortlessly faints Goh's Kantonian Farfetch'd when both of them use Night Slash
Ash sends out his recently trained Riolu, orders Vacuum Wave, the Farfetch'd blocks it.
As the Farfetch'd readies another Night Slash, Ash has Riolu use Force Palm. Said Farfetch'd takes the attack, charges in.
Ash has Riolu use Double Team Night Slash is evaded.
Riolu bombards Farfetch'd with a flurry of Vacuum Waves, dispelling the copies & hitting the real Riolu.
Ash has Riolu use Reversal, it hits, Farfetch'd is standing for a bit, but then faints.

That Farfetch'd one-shot a trained Farfetch'd that should have nearly been its equal, face-tanked & ignored Riolu's prior attacks, despite wild & despite Riolu being trained, it was arguably the superior up until then.
Yet Reversal at low Stamina fainted it.
Said Farfetch'd was later caught by Ash, & both it & his Riolu were later evolved, & later still became part of Ash's Champion team. So I'd say that Farfetch'd was at least of above average capabilities, considering what it achieved.
Reversal at low Stamina was also how Ash's Lucario finished off Cynthia's Garchomp.

& in gameplay terms, its base power varies from 20 to 200.

So yeah. Low Stamina Reversal is somewhere between:

1. "Strong enough to near one-shot something strong enough to ignore & tank all Riolu's other attacks that could also one shot a member of almost the same species (Galarian & Kantonian regional difference) that was using the same move & near oneshot Riolu itself"....
& 2. Up to 10 times stronger, if we go by base power. If we did, 0.62 * 10 = 6.2, versus Ness's 1.1.
If Ness does tank that, he'll be in bad shape, & if Riolu needs to do another one, it can outspeed Ness's healing with Quick Attack, Vacuum Wave (Ranged as well.), Copycat (2 Reversals in a row.), or Feint.

Also that 0.62 isn't accounting for any modifiers from IQ Skills, nor is it accounting for that Riolu can add 100% of base with a single Swords Dance, Iron Defense, Agility or Nasty Plot; After a single Swords Dance or Nasty Plot, Riolu has higher AP (For the relevant offense.) & can often be faster (Due to Prankster & Priority moves, not to mention Agility.), after a single set-up move.

What is the thing that matters is that killing is not an option here.

Well, Pokemon cause one another to faint plenty often, & Riolu can see aura which is life energy, & it's probably not evil.
It can go for knocking Ness out.

Besides... I have no idea why the Opional Equipment is listed as Standard in that section, ngl.

CRT material?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Dawg, this wall of text shows clear symptoms of lack of grass touching ngl.

Regardless, replying later.

 

[Imaginym]

Regardless, replying later.

Looking forward to it.
Hopefully this ain't an unpleasant debate for you.

BTW, when you say later, do you mean you need sleep? Because it's 7:30 AM here & I don't blame you if you're tired after this debate that.... What, started 6 & a half hours ago?

Also, 1 other use for Final Gambit:

Final Gambit (move) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

It's only in the games & the manga; Not been used in the anime, but its depicted as a ramming attack in the Manga, & a blue-ish white ball thing being sent at the foe in the games.
Its power is 1 to 1 with the amount of HP the Pokemon has when it uses it; If Riolu has more Stamina than Ness, & HP is analogus to Ness....

Well, that said, I don't consider it very relevant, as it might be discouraged by SBA, because using Final Gambit also makes the user faint.

SBA says, among other details.
State of mind: In character, but will attempt to win the battle. Characters will not give up of their own accord.

So at best, it'd be used to force a draw, unless we consider it a victory for both of them to faint but 1 of them regains consciousness sooner....

 

[Winter]

So wait, I’m confused. What’s Riolu even starting with here? There’s all these walls of text of different things Riolu can do, but what would he start with? Ness already massively counters at the start.

Another thing, why would Riolu have the tactical thinking to use all of these counter moves in the first place? He’s below average normally, and even in battle, he is lesser to Ness and is mainly compared to martial arts users. Keep in mind this is a wild Riolu as well, which wouldn’t even have any of the combat skills from Trainers.


Ness unironically stomps in anyway possible FRA

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah, I just gave up with all of the wall of texts because...

1. I have better shit to do
2. The opposition side was opposing Ness' P&A because the preferred character would lose against him.

Opposition also assumes that Riolu acts as a No U all the time when it's mind reading is vague as hell.

Besides, I'm planning to do a CRT to put the items as Standard Equipment as those are pretty much plot keys, like the Franklin Badge or the Honey of Flies or the Waters of Time.

 

[Imaginym]

So wait, I’m confused. What’s Riolu even starting with here? There’s all these walls of text of different things Riolu can do, but what would he start with? Ness already massively counters at the start.

Probably Aura-based techniques or anything involving moving a lot, considering its Stamina & energetic-ness are attested to in the Pokdex.
Or maybe something based on its emotion sensing & mind-reading.

Another thing, why would Riolu have the tactical thinking to use all of these counter moves in the first place? He’s below average normally, and even in battle, he is lesser to Ness and is mainly compared to martial arts users. Keep in mind this is a wild Riolu as well, which wouldn’t even have any of the combat skills from Trainers.

Intelligence: Below Average normally (Capable of coherent speech between other Pokémon, a degree of understanding of commands and social situations, and can solve minor puzzles, though still mostly driven by instinct), Above Average in battle as Riolu (Pokémon are hard-wired for battle and even in the wild can master many moves and fight the likes of Machop which train in all martial arts. Riolu trains itself since childhood until it becomes stronger),

Above Average in battle, technically.
Also, IDK why being less Intelligent than Ness would change what it'll do. It doesn't necessarily know how smart Ness is, even if it does read his mind.
& some of it is fairly intuitive, like using Feint (A move specifically for countering barriers) when Ness uses a Barrier is fairly intuitive.
Reversal is specifically for use at low Stamina.

Ness unironically stomps in anyway possible FRA

I've just mostly been arguing to demonstrate Riolu does have feasible win conditions.

Because if it does, this isn't a Stomp match.
& you don't vote on stomps; They can't be added.

 

[Winter]

Probably Aura-based techniques or anything involving moving a lot, considering its Stamina & energetic-ness are attested to in the Pokdex.
Or maybe something based on its emotion sensing & mind-reading.

Intelligence: Below Average normally (Capable of coherent speech between other Pokémon, a degree of understanding of commands and social situations, and can solve minor puzzles, though still mostly driven by instinct), Above Average in battle as Riolu (Pokémon are hard-wired for battle and even in the wild can master many moves and fight the likes of Machop which train in all martial arts. Riolu trains itself since childhood until it becomes stronger),

Above Average in battle, technically.
Also, IDK why being less Intelligent than Ness would change what it'll do. It doesn't necessarily know how smart Ness is, even if it does read his mind.
& some of it is fairly intuitive, like using Feint (A move specifically for countering barriers) when Ness uses a Barrier is fairly intuitive.
Reversal is specifically for use at low Stamina.

I've just mostly been arguing to demonstrate Riolu does have feasible win conditions.

Because if it does, this isn't a Stomp match.
& you don't vote on stomps; They can't be added.

So then there’s no point in arguing the counter attacks, yes? Stryum says mind reading is vague and you’ve failed to prove that it isn’t and yet you argue it as a wincon

I never said it would change, I asked why Riolu would even have the tactical thinking to counter Ness? He lacks standard intellect normally and in battle, he’s only comparable to martial arts in combat. He’s not gonna have the intellect to make those decisions. Ness is smarter and more proficient in combat. He has the tactical thinking, Riolu doesn’t. He’s not gonna use any of those

Riolu doesn’t have them, which is why it’s a stomp. Ness has 2x AP, far better skill and LS, more wincons, and all of baby lucario’s stuff isn’t even gonna be used situationally, he’s just gonna dive in combat and lose.

I didn’t vote, I said it was a stomp FRA. This should be closed

 

[Imaginym]

So then there’s no point in arguing the counter attacks, yes? Stryum says mind reading is vague and you’ve failed to prove that it isn’t and yet you argue it as a wincon

Not as the only win condition.
As for what's known about its mind-reading & similar abilities, it is vague, yes.

Legends: Arceus	Though infantile in appearance, it has the mysterious ability to read the minds of humans. The pure of heart are met with Riolu's approval, while those of ill nature earn only its loathing.

Platinum	It has the peculiar power of being able to see emotions such as joy and rage in the form of waves.

Sun	It can discern the physical and emotional states of people, Pokémon, and other natural things from the shape of their aura waves.

Ultra Moon	It uses waves called auras to communicate with others of its kind. It doesn't make any noise during this time, so its enemies can't detect it.

Shield	It can use waves called auras to gauge how others are feeling. These same waves can also tell this Pokémon about the state of the environment.

& if you count the move Mind Reader:
"The user senses the target's movements with its mind to ensure its next attack does not miss the target."

I never said it would change, I asked why Riolu would even have the tactical thinking to counter Ness? He lacks standard intellect normally and in battle, he’s only comparable to martial arts in combat. He’s not gonna have the intellect to make those decisions.

By the standards of our Pokemon Profiles & what's on the profile AtM, it's Above Average in battle.

Ness is smarter and more proficient in combat. He has the tactical thinking, Riolu doesn’t. He’s not gonna use any of those

You say that, but what are Ness's standard tactics?
Ness has beaten a variety of foes, but how did he demonstrate his skills? How does he wield his bats? When does he use which techniques?
How will Ness apply his intelligence here?

Things Riolu has over Ness:
1. Prankster makes it faster with several non-attacking moves, & for several of its actual attacking moves, it's already faster than Ness during their use.
2. 1 of said moves, which Riolu is faster during, Feint, is specifically for hitting past barriers, in that it both negates them & hits through them.
3. Ness's Hypnosis will be a wasted move due to Riolu resisting via Nonsleeper. Ness doesn't know this, & doesn't have Precognition nor Mind Reading, Telepathy nor Precognition on his profile.
3. The actual AP matchup is 0.62 Tons vs 1.1 Tons; If Riolu used Swords Dance or Nasty Plot even once, it'll have the higher AP. Also, Agility, which is probably even more IC given Riolu naturally being energetic & running for literal whole nights.
4. If it ends up at a Low amount of Stamina, Reversal can be massively more powerful. I'd dare risk saying enough to one-shot, given how it was shown & used in the anime.

Also, PK Rockin is named after Ness's favorite thing, so it'd be more likely to be his opening move, not "Go for instant kill PK Flash".
& PK Flash is only crippling about half the time, when it inflicts instant defeat (37.5%) or causes Paralysis (12.5%). Feeling Strange, which makes the victim aim the wrong way, which wouldn't affect all of Riolu's moves. (Like its stat boosting, Endure or Detect.) Crying (37.5%) can be ignored because Riolu see emotions & aura, so that aim impairment is less impactful.
(& also if inducing crying upsets Riolu, it may power it up, due to its aura intensifying when it's afraid or sad.)
Ergo, Ness doesn't lead with it, it being decisively useful is a coin flip's chance. Not to mention because Ness's range is only hundreds of meters yet the slowest speed in this match is over 300 m/s, Riolu could just run out of range of it, not to mention surviving the OHKO via Endure or dodging it via Detect.

Being smarter is good, & so is being experienced, but how does Ness actually leverage that?
Ness fought all kinds of enemies, often with the help of a group, & used his PSI techniques or beat them down with a bat, but beyond that it's unclear what he did to win those battles, no? & didn't he stat stomp those enemies anyway?

& when does Ness use his LS in combat? I don't recall him having any grabs, nor any telekinetic grabs or throws or such in EarthBound. Nor would he immediately know he outlifts Riolu.

he’s just gonna dive in combat and lose.

Kinda incorrect.

Ultra Sun	It knows how people and Pokémon feel by looking at their auras. It doesn't approach dangerous opponents.

A likely hostile Ness would probably be seen as "dangerous" & thus, be kept at a distance from, & considering Riolu can see Ness's emotions & read his mind....

 

[Winter]

Not as the only win condition.
As for what's known about its mind-reading & similar abilities, it is vague, yes.

Legends: Arceus	Though infantile in appearance, it has the mysterious ability to read the minds of humans. The pure of heart are met with Riolu's approval, while those of ill nature earn only its loathing.

Platinum	It has the peculiar power of being able to see emotions such as joy and rage in the form of waves.

Sun	It can discern the physical and emotional states of people, Pokémon, and other natural things from the shape of their aura waves.

Ultra Moon	It uses waves called auras to communicate with others of its kind. It doesn't make any noise during this time, so its enemies can't detect it.

Shield	It can use waves called auras to gauge how others are feeling. These same waves can also tell this Pokémon about the state of the environment.

& if you count the move Mind Reader:
"The user senses the target's movements with its mind to ensure its next attack does not miss the target."

By the standards of our Pokemon Profiles & what's on the profile AtM, it's Above Average in battle.

You say that, but what are Ness's standard tactics?
Ness has beaten a variety of foes, but how did he demonstrate his skills? How does he wield his bats? When does he use which techniques?
How will Ness apply his intelligence here?

Things Riolu has over Ness:
1. Prankster makes it faster with several non-attacking moves, & for several of its actual attacking moves, it's already faster than Ness during their use.
2. 1 of said moves, which Riolu is faster during, Feint, is specifically for hitting past barriers, in that it both negates them & hits through them.
3. Ness's Hypnosis will be a wasted move due to Riolu resisting via Nonsleeper. Ness doesn't know this, & doesn't have Precognition nor Mind Reading, Telepathy nor Precognition on his profile.
3. The actual AP matchup is 0.62 Tons vs 1.1 Tons; If Riolu used Swords Dance or Nasty Plot even once, it'll have the higher AP. Also, Agility, which is probably even more IC given Riolu naturally being energetic & running for literal whole nights.
4. If it ends up at a Low amount of Stamina, Reversal can be massively more powerful. I'd dare risk saying enough to one-shot, given how it was shown & used in the anime.

Also, PK Rockin is named after Ness's favorite thing, so it'd be more likely to be his opening move, not "Go for instant kill PK Flash".
& PK Flash is only crippling about half the time, when it inflicts instant defeat (37.5%) or causes Paralysis (12.5%). Feeling Strange, which makes the victim aim the wrong way, which wouldn't affect all of Riolu's moves. (Like its stat boosting, Endure or Detect.) Crying (37.5%) can be ignored because Riolu see emotions & aura, so that aim impairment is less impactful.
(& also if inducing crying upsets Riolu, it may power it up, due to its aura intensifying when it's afraid or sad.)
Ergo, Ness doesn't lead with it, it being decisively useful is a coin flip's chance. Not to mention because Ness's range is only hundreds of meters yet the slowest speed in this match is over 300 m/s, Riolu could just run out of range of it, not to mention surviving the OHKO via Endure or dodging it via Detect.

Being smarter is good, & so is being experienced, but how does Ness actually leverage that?
Ness fought all kinds of enemies, often with the help of a group, & used his PSI techniques or beat them down with a bat, but beyond that it's unclear what he did to win those battles, no? & didn't he stat stomp those enemies anyway?

& when does Ness use his LS in combat? I don't recall him having any grabs, nor any telekinetic grabs or throws or such in EarthBound. Nor would he immediately know he outlifts Riolu.


Kinda incorrect.

Ultra Sun	It knows how people and Pokémon feel by looking at their auras. It doesn't approach dangerous opponents.

A likely hostile Ness would probably be seen as "dangerous" & thus, be kept at a distance from, & considering Riolu can see Ness's emotions & read his mind....

Lemme just make it clear you aren’t even tackling the opposition. Your using all of this paragraph wall to argue Ness’ abilities. You aren’t necessarily proving why Riolu is gonna win


There is no main win condition, just “no you.” Mind reading is still vague. When is he gonna use this in battle? His first move isn’t even this. Riolu can’t learn mind reader. Even what’s potentially combat applicable such as danger sensing, SBA negates all use of this ability, since he can’t run away and is still willing to fight.

I’m not as much willing to argue this in depth, but the easiest way to put it: Ness is a genius, Riolu is Above Average in combat only. Ness single-handedly took out 5 police officers and a local gang. This is in early game, which has less experience given this is Mid-Game Ness. Ness has the advantage and bypasses the vague martial arts knowledge Machop knows. Ness is pacifistic in nature and will incapacitate him no matter what. He starts off with status or incaps him with a strike or 2.

Also worth noting the below average hurts Riolu a lot. He’s only knowledgeable in fighting. Not tactical thinking, which is pretty major in combat. Riolu basically has the competence of a human infant. He’s not gonna know when to use certain attacks because he can’t think well enough to do this. He can fight, not just smart.

None of these are advantages

1. Priority moves are useless because of speed equal

2. Same as before + Riolu is incompetent

3. Still vulnerable to paralysis and flash

4. Swords Dance and Nasty Plot only get him barely above Ness. Not to mention, they are move dependent, and Riolu is incompetent. Ness would attack first due to ranged status vs physical attack.

5. Riolu is incompetent and Ness more than likely won’t beat him to fainting point given the AP gap.

That just tells me you don’t know Earthbound and are making baseless assumptions.

Flash more often than not induced status effects, which Riolu is vulnerable to. Feeling strange is basically a confusion ailment, which just makes Riolu attack himself in confusion of whose side he’s on. Mind and aura reading are vague. Also, crying completely blinds you because of how much you’re crying, he’s not gonna see anything. Ness uses it due to pacifist nature. Speed is equal and it’s a big aoe. Stop mentioning speed. Riolu is incompetent and wouldn’t know to use this


Same point as before. He’s stronger than most of them but not always to a stomping degree. He is comparable to the most notable enemies he fights, such as the police officers and gangs mentioned previously.

This question is pretty dumb. Because it’s literally just how strong he is. You don’t need to flat out show it, he just overpowers him because he’s stronger. It’s like asking if I use stamina in a fight. I just do because it’s how much endurance I have.

This point has been refuted before. SBA negates this since he can’t run away and is willing to fight.

I don’t see why I need to argue this any further. The op says it’s a stomp, we’ve proven it’s a stomp, and you’ve given little opposition to prove it’s not a stomp. This should be closed or left.

 

[Imaginym]

There is no main win condition, just “no you.” Mind reading is still vague. When is he gonna use this in battle? His first move isn’t even this. Riolu can’t learn mind reader.

Yes it can learn it.

Mind Reader (move) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

It's an Egg Move, which we account for on Pokemon profiles.

Even what’s potentially combat applicable such as danger sensing, SBA negates all use of this ability, since he can’t run away and is still willing to fight.

Evading an attack, &/or moving out of range =/= Running away.
Also, Riolu is Range: Standard melee range normally, Extended melee range with Bone Rush, Hundreds of meters with most attacks
So it wouldn't necessarily be out of range to attack Ness anyway.

I’m not as much willing to argue this in depth, but the easiest way to put it: Ness is a genius, Riolu is Above Average in combat only. Ness single-handedly took out 5 police officers and a local gang.

Police officers that IIRC, were mind controlled to be evil by Giygas's influence, but yes.

Ness is pacifistic in nature and will incapacitate him no matter what. He starts off with status or incaps him with a strike or 2.

Has Ness ever used Telekinetic means of attack or incapacitation, however?
& Hypnosis is Resisted.

So what's he using to Incapacitate?

Also worth noting the below average hurts Riolu a lot. He’s only knowledgeable in fighting. Not tactical thinking, which is pretty major in combat. Riolu basically has the competence of a human infant. He’s not gonna know when to use certain attacks because he can’t think well enough to do this. He can fight, not just smart.

"He can fight, just not smart" seems like a questionable interpretation of Above Average in battle as Riolu (Pokémon are hard-wired for battle and even in the wild can master many moves and fight the likes of Machop which train in all martial arts. Riolu trains itself since childhood until it becomes stronger),

Especially since it already has a distinction of being
Below Average normally (Capable of coherent speech between other Pokémon, a degree of understanding of commands and social situations, and can solve minor puzzles, though still mostly driven by instinct)

None of these are advantages

1. Priority moves are useless because of speed equal

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• The combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc.
  • Speed Amplification techniques are assumed to grant the same percentile of increase to a character's equalized speeds, as they would to their usual speeds.

A large point of them is to to be faster when used.
Ergo, it would still have the same proprotional speed increase.

2. Same as before + Riolu is incompetent

See Ness use a barrier, use move it learned that specifically hits through barrier. Seems plausible for Above Average in combat intelligence.

3. Still vulnerable to paralysis and flash

Yes, but as said, that's only about half of the results, & when it has means of exiting the range, or surviving or evading them....

4. Swords Dance and Nasty Plot only get him barely above Ness.

Assuming a single use, yes. (& also Prankster would have it be faster when using them.)

Not to mention, they are move dependent, and Riolu is incompetent. Ness would attack first due to ranged status vs physical attack.

As I already mentioned, Riolu likely wouldn't approach due to sensing Ness as "dangerous", so it'd probably go for range as well.

5. Riolu is incompetent and Ness more than likely won’t beat him to fainting point given the AP gap.

I assume you mean that Above Average intelligence in combat is comparatively incompetent.

That just tells me you don’t know Earthbound and are making baseless assumptions.

I've seen Earthbound as well as Mother 3 played to completion.

Flash more often than not induced status effects, which Riolu is vulnerable to.

As established, only half of which are particularly debilitating, & 1 of the most likely results may have a side effect of power up Riolu, assuming EB's Uncontrollable Crying status has Empathic Manipulation.

Feeling strange is basically a confusion ailment, which just makes Riolu attack himself in confusion of whose side he’s on.

I'm aware it makes them pick the wrong targets.
Will an enemies that's alone in EB attack itself when feeling strange?

Mind and aura reading are vague. Also, crying completely blinds you because of how much you’re crying, he’s not gonna see anything.

Even in EB, crying enemies are capable of hitting their attacks.
Also, scans saying it completely blinds them?

Ness uses it due to pacifist nature.

Isn't 1 of PK Flash's most likely results (37.5%) instantly killing the foe?

Speed is equal and it’s a big aoe.

Range: Extended melee range with weapons, Hundreds of Meters with PSI (Comparable to Paula Jones and Poo, who can use PK Thunder, which has been demonstrated by several enemies to behave similar to normal lightning)

To Ness's credit, I was mistaken about over 300 m/s being the slowest combatant speed involved:
Speed: Subsonic (Should be the same as Ninten. Can outrun Grizzly Bears) with | Relativistic+ (Can fight enemies like Skelpion or Cute Lil' UFO who can dodge laser beams)

​

Relativistic+	1.499e+8 - 299792458

Speed: Transonic (Comparable to Pichu)

​

Transonic	308.7 - 377.3

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"The combat speed of that faster character is assumed to be equalized to the combat speed of the slower character. Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight etc."

I know that Speed is equalized. But techniques remain proportionally faster than their users.

This question is pretty dumb. Because it’s literally just how strong he is. You don’t need to flat out show it, he just overpowers him because he’s stronger. It’s like asking if I use stamina in a fight. I just do because it’s how much endurance I have.

I just find myself a bit incredulous that Ness would outskill anyone if it came to close combat, considering we don't know what he does beyond that he can fight groups & uses a bat, & for PSI, we know he's good at deciding when & which moves to use.

This point has been refuted before. SBA negates this since he can’t run away and is willing to fight.

It prevents giving up of their own accord or simply leaving, nor moving out of range of attacks, nor keeping at a distance.
State of mind: In character, but will attempt to win the battle. Characters will not give up of their own accord. That means a character that is uninterested or sees no chance of winning won't simply leave and characters wouldn't simply become friends with each other. This doesn't prevent a character being made to give up, because the other character manipulates them via things like, for example, mind control, fear inducement, psychological tricks or superhuman charisma.


Either way, I've already established my stance & brought up what I feel what is worth bringing it up.

Spoiler: Info about what a Stomp Thread is

Stomp Thread

A stomp thread is a VS thread where, for all intents and purposes, one of the characters is unreasonably outmatched by their opponent. Whether it is through a difference in statistics, abilities or even (in very rare cases) skill between the two parties, these matches are heavily one-sided and...

vsbattles.fandom.com

A stomp thread is a VS thread where, for all intents and purposes, one of the characters is unreasonably outmatched by their opponent. Whether it is through a difference in statistics, abilities or even (in very rare cases) skill between the two parties, these matches are heavily one-sided and provide little to no challenge or danger for the winning character.

Unlike a match which is decisive in one character's favor, stomp matches very rarely leave any room for debate, with their outcomes coming across as predictable to anyone with even cursory knowledge of the combatants and their abilities.

Common Examples of a Decisive/Non-Stomp Match​

• Both characters have several methods of winning, including options that allow them to win instantly. However, one character can reliably use/activate their winning move(s) first.
• One character has more ways to win than the other, but the other character wins more times than not due to matchup specifics that allow/cause them to use their winning move(s) immediately.
• Both characters are otherwise evenly matched in terms of statistics and abilities, but one has regeneration that the other can possibly, but not easily, surmount.
• One character having a level of regeneration that prevents them from being killed, but the other has an ability that would allow them to win despite the former's level of regeneration, such as mind manipulation, soul manipulation, ect...

This arguably qualifies for the first via Riolu having Final Gambit & higher Stamina & Ness having PK Flash's instant death, but I'm doubtful about the others.

I don’t see why I need to argue this any further. The op says it’s a stomp, we’ve proven it’s a stomp, and you’ve given little opposition to prove it’s not a stomp. This should be closed or left.

To each their own.
I think Riolu has reasonably achievable win conditions, even though I don't think it's necessarily the more likely combatant to win.
But if other people don't think so, it's not like I can mind control them.
I appreciate you having this much patience to debate me so dedicatedly so far, though.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This should be closed or left.

I'll ask for this.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I was told to close this