Revisions to High-Godly and True-Godly Regenerationn

[Udlmaster]

1.) In short, no. Your concept is still yours, a part of your existence, it's just the facet of it all, Mind, Body and soul destruction won't destroy your Soul unless it's type 4 Concepts, then which this is a different story.

2.) It's the same issue with EE from any 1-A source, it being 1-A doesn't make it inherently better in the layer of the onion, erasing your Platonic concept does the same as type 2, but you still are non-existent afterwards, you're not pushed beyond Non-existence.

 

[Udlmaster]

So, we're all in agreement?

Ultima's proposal shall be the one we shall use when reworking High and True Godly regen?


Are there any objections while we are all here?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

No objections to Ultima's suggestion for True-Godly, relatively neutral on that being "Regenerationn from nonexistence erasure, as in, a nonexistent thing regenerating its nonexistence(?)". Works for me.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I like donttalk's version best we should just leave them how they are

My problem with ultima'a suggestion for high godly is that afaik most verses don't specify when someone is conceptually erased as opposed to just erased

 

[Udlmaster]

There's a simple solution to that, if the erasure has been shown to work on the "higher" level of existence, Soul, Mind, concept, existence and non-existence, then we'd assume that when said person "erases" said being, that it affected their whatever level the erasure showed.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody knowledgeable willing to restart this discussion in the staff only forum, with an initial reasonably thorough summary of the options, so we can more conclusively settle this?

I would much prefer if this is done. We do not remotely have a strong enough staff consensus yet regarding how we should settle this without making any mistakes.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Is this good?

 

[Antvasima]

We need considerably more in-depth summaries of all the suggestions before I can highlight the new staff thread.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Better?

 

[Antvasima]

My apologies for being blunt, but not particularly. Staff members who have not been involved in this discussion, or who have forgotten most of it, need a comprehensive, easily understood, neutral summary of the suggestions brought forth in this thread in order to be able to properly participate in the new one.

I would appreciate if some administrators and/or discussion moderators are willing to help out with this. You are allowed to edit the first post in the continuation thread.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

I'll work on it.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Question, going by conceptual Erasure examples


What if there is a character that transcends the Multiverse, and all its history. Higher Dimensional, and is fully omnipresent. So there is only 1 iteration of this person's being.


This is different whereas 1 person could have multiple iterations of himself

 

[Paul_Frank]

@uld

So if someone has ever shown that their erasure can work on a conceptual level then we assume that anyone they erase is also erased conceptually? I don't think we normally do that but eh

 

[Elizhaa]

I am somwhat confused here.

If a character can regenerated from Conceptual Manipulation then it is High-Godly but a characters can regenerated from existence + nonexistence erasure then it is True-Godly, right, from Ultima's proposal?

• Ultima: High-Godly - Regen post Conceptual erasure, True-Godly - Regen post erasure from Existence and Non-existence

What make existence + nonexistence erasure superior/comparable to Conceptual Manipulation here as I think we always treated Conceptual erasure as superior and existence + nonexistence erasure as Void Manipulation?

Honestly, the True-Godly's proposal looks super vague to me.

 

[Udlmaster]

2.) It's the same issue with EE from any 1-A source, it being 1-A doesn't make it inherently better in the layer of the onion, erasing your Platonic concept does the same as type 2, but you still are non-existent afterwards, you're not pushed beyond Non-existence.

@Nedge

 

[Udlmaster]

@uld
So if someone has ever shown that their erasure can work on a conceptual level then we assume that anyone they erase is also erased conceptually? I don't think we normally do that but eh

Yes, imagine it like an arrow piecing an onion, you need more power to piece each layer of the onion, if we've seen that the person firing the arrow has pieced to this layer, we have no reason to assume when they fire the arrow again, that it pieces less.

And so this analogy extends to Vsdebating, where if we have seen Existence Erasure (The arrow) Piece all the way to the conceptual layer of existence (the layers of the onion) and this character uses EE again, we would assume that it affects the conceptual layer unless shown otherwise or stated otherwise, if not, then we assume it has pieced that level.

 

[KingPin0422]

@Udl

The problem with your logic is that you're basically saying that 4-D nonexistence erasure > beyond-D conceptual erasure because the former "goes beyond the duality of existence and nonexistence" while the latter does not.

I could use that same logic to say that 1-As with type 4 transduality should be inherently superior to 1-As with type 3 transduality, even if those falling under the latter category have feats on greater scales than some of the characters within the former category.

 

[Udlmaster]

Ugh,

okay, firstly, you preface it by saying that their EE is Conceptual, meaning it pushes them to Non-existence, and that a being who can regenerate from being removed from existence and Non-existence who is 4-D.

But then go on to say that this 1-A being has Type 4 Transdualism. So which is it then? Conceptual erasure or beyond Duality? You can't have both.

And no, you can't use my logic, because you changed your premise from Conceptual to beyond Duality and transdualism, erasing all their truth values. This would be far beyond Erasure from existence and non-existence.

Your original premise was a none-descript 1-A being, you then changed this to them having Type 4 Transdualism, those two are very different things.

My logic is consistent within itself, I don't change the premise of it, that lower level EE, no matter what how many vectors of movement it has cannot bypass higher levels of Regenerationn.

So, yes, of course erasure from beyond all truth values and forms of logic would be better than Regen from existence and none-existence.

But, having more power in your EE doesn't push it to a higher level, 1-A EE Physical EE is not better than 4-D Conceptual Regen, having better feats doesn't mean anything or having it work on a wider area, most beings take up finite space, so having it spread across an Outerversal realm is pointless when I made up virtually nothing of that space.

 

[Elizhaa]

I do know existence and nonexistence tends to exist in conceptual frameworks so it is hard to fully argued that conceptual erasure can't affect both.

I honestly think the current definition of True-Godly Regenerationn works better for the concerns that I elaborated on above.

 

[Udlmaster]

That would depend on the verse, and thus a case by case basis and isn't very common at least from the many verses I know of that use concepts.

If they do affect Existence and Non-existence AND can remove someone from both, then it would be the same as Souls being Concepts, the higher one would over write the lower.

 

[KingPin0422]

You completely misunderstood my argument, so let me break it down for you:

In my first paragraph, I talked about how you're saying that because conceptual erasure reduces the target to nonexistence while nonexistence erasure gets rid of even that, nonexistence erasure should always be superior to any form of conceptual erasure. (The one thing I will grant you is that I failed to specify the type of concept in my previous post.)

In my second paragraph, I then extrapolated off of your logic to say that a 1-A with type 4 transduality would be automatically superior to any 1-A with type 3 transduality, regardless of whether or not the latter has greater feats than the former. (By the way, type 4 transduality is not "beyond all forms of logic". It's simply a state of being that disobeys binary logic, unlike type 3 which is technically still within its confines.)

Do you understand what I am saying now?

 

[Elizhaa]

That would depend on the verse, and thus a case by case basis and isn't very common at least from the many verses I know of that use concepts.
If they do affect Existence and Non-existence AND can remove someone from both, then it would be the same as Souls being Concepts, the higher one would over write the lower.

If Existence and Non-existence are judged on such a case by case basis for verses, then I rather keep the True-Godly definition.

 

[Udlmaster]

If Existence and Non-existence are judged on such a case by case basis for verses, then I rather keep the True-Godly definition.

Existence and Non-existence isn't judged based on each verse, only if Concepts are beyond Exostence and Non-existence or function on that level.

 

[Udlmaster]

>In my first paragraph, I talked about how you're saying that because conceptual erasure reduces the target to nonexistence while nonexistence erasure gets rid of even that, nonexistence erasure should always be superior to any form of conceptual erasure. (The one thing I will grant you is that I failed to specify the type of concept in my previous post.)

That was my argument from the beginning, that the power behind the EE doesn't matter, only the layer It erases from.

>In my second paragraph, I then extrapolated off of your logic to say that a 1-A with type 4 transduality would be automatically superior to any 1-A with type 3 transduality, regardless of whether or not the latter has greater feats than the former. (By the way, type 4 transduality is not "beyond all forms of logic". It's simply a state of being that disobeys binary logic, unlike type 3 which is technically still within its confines.)

I see what you're saying, but you're making the wrong assumptions, assuming that Type 4 Transdual beings are always stronger than Type 3, this isn't true, Type 3 can be stronger, Transdualism Type 4 and 3 are talking about the type of logic they function on, not how powerful they are, although, typically type 4 would be stronger, but a featless Type 4 and a Azathoth Level Type 3 with feats does beat the Type 4 if it can affect it.

 

[Antvasima]

Staff members who have not been involved in this discussion, or who have forgotten most of it, need a comprehensive, easily understood, neutral summary of the suggestions brought forth in this thread in order to be able to properly participate in the new one.

I would appreciate if some administrators and/or discussion moderators are willing to help out with this. You are allowed to edit the first post in the continuation thread.

Is some objective/evenhanded and experienced staff or regular member willing to do this?

 

[Imaginym]

Given the inactivity so far, I'm wondering if this thread still has progress to be made? Sorry if I'm intruding.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Something I noticed on various versus threads...

Nuking a Multiverse = bypass mid-godly

But

Nuke the Multiverse - But the soul remains, and regenerates a body, and mind only*

Apparently this is where Low-godly surpasses mid godly from what I observed on versus threads...

 

[Imaginym]

Huh? If I understand right, isn't the former where one or more multiverses remain, and the latter where none remain? In either case, isn't it only one multiverse is destroyed?

Why should Mid-Godly not let you survive the former (Getting rid of a singular one of multiple multiverses), but still survive the latter (Getting rid of the only, but still singular multiverse?).

 

[Andytrenom]

My opinion is simple

Regenerating after all the universes are destroyed is not more impressive than regenerating after your type 2 concept is destroyed since a type 2 concept would actually transcend reality and require the individual to be destroyed at a greater level than aforementioned multiverse destruction. Therefore I think regenerating from conceptual destruction being a new high godly makes sense

I'm iffy on non-existence erasure being the new true godly tho, since a verse's interpretation of this kind of "extra non-existence" being superior to conceptual destruction hardly seems like it would be a universal thing

 

[Antvasima]

So is somebody willing to significantly improve on the first post summary in the new thread, so I can highlight it?

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3276215