Return of the King - Invisible Dragon vs Son Goku (Dragon vs Dragon/Monkey)

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

2-C is unquantifiably above Low 2-C because unlike 4-B to 4-A, and 3-C to 3-B, there's no way to quantify the gap between two universes, especially when we don't even know the size of our own IRL universe, let alone if there's even more than one, let alone the distance between them.

Something like that causes massive variations in fiction.

Either way, Goku's MUI Form, that scales to half of 2-C, is nowhere near Invisible Dragon levels of far more powerful than lower level Low 2-C Dragonball characters.

So unless someone wants to tell me MUI Goku is 33 septillion times stronger than Infinite Zamasu, Stomp match for Invisible Dragon.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

In short, a fight between Beerus and his brother Champa will destroy both Universe 6 & 7, which is a baseline 2-C feat. Since the feat is done by both characters, they both scale to half of 2-C, or unquantifiably high into Low 2-C.

Goku in MUI is more powerful than a guy that is said to be "stronger than a god of destruction", so he scales to half 2-C as well

 

[Ugarik]

Okay, I understand the logic behind this but I'm not sure if this kind of scaling is allowed

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Okay, I understand the logic behind this but I'm not sure if this kind of scaling is allowed

It was accepted iirc, so I think it is allowed.

 

[InfiniteSped]

It's still unquantifiable, so it doesn't really help in threads like this. >_>

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

It's still higher than whatever multiplier you throw at a Low 2-C character, since no matter how big a multiplier is added to a Low 2-C character, they still won't reach 2-C without feats.

DB's G.O.D tiers on the other hand, are Low 2-C by downscaling from a 2-C feat of destroying 2 universes, and Goku is comparabke to G.O.Ds in MUI (Meaning he's around half 2-C too)

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

>Its still higher than whatever multiplier

Do you know the exact value, then? Because we need one to measure who is stronger here. And ID has one

>Goku downscaling from the feat

Doesnt mean he'll ever reach 2-C via multipliers alone

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

>Goku downscaling from the feat

Doesnt mean he'll ever reach 2-C via multipliers alone

Yes. Anyone 2 times more powerful than Beerus is baseline 2-C

Baseline 2-C characters would always stomp a Low 2-C character no matter how high into the tier they are (yes, including the invisible dragon)

MUI Goku doesn't have a multiplier to scale from baseline Low 2-C, but he is comparable to character who downscale from baseline 2-C.

 

[AwkguyDB]

Okay, I understand the logic behind this but I'm not sure if this kind of scaling is allowed

It was indeed accepted as many believed Half of 2-C would still be 2-C but this was done due to the broken nature of DB and to come to a middle ground. So logically Goku has a massive AP advantage here where he could technically one shot for being the highest Low 2-C on the site. On top of which Goku has Extrasensory Perception via Ki Sensing (Can locate others by reading their ki, detect malicious intent, difference in power levels, and beings in different dimensions), Enhanced Senses (Even without ki training, Goku has exceptional senses that allow him to locate small, distant objects by tracking their smell, see clearly over long distances, and track the movements of others even in pitch black conditions by feeling vibrations in the air), and Analytical Predictio. If Speed is Equalized, how is this not a stomp in favor for Goku?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

>Goku downscaling from the feat

Doesnt mean he'll ever reach 2-C via multipliers alone

MUI Goku doesn't have a multiplier to scale from baseline Low 2-C, but he is comparable to character who downscale from baseline 2-C.

The value is still unquantifiable regardless, and thus you cant assume that he is stronger

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Okay, I understand the logic behind this but I'm not sure if this kind of scaling is allowed

It was indeed accepted as many believed Half of 2-C would still be 2-C but this was done due to the broken nature of DB and to come to a middle ground. So logically Goku has a massive AP advantage here where he could technically one shot for being the highest Low 2-C on the site. On top of which Goku has Extrasensory Perception via Ki Sensing (Can locate others by reading their ki, detect malicious intent, difference in power levels, and beings in different dimensions). If Speed is Equalized, how is this not a stomp in favor for Goku?

Speed is unequalized tho

 

[InfiniteSped]

It's unquantifiable, you can't know how it compares to, say, being 50 times above Low 2-C baseline. If it's unknown how much stronger 2-C is compared to Low 2-C, then being half of 2-C doesn't make you any stronger than other Low 2-Cs.

 

[RatherClueless]

honestly, the only thing I get from this is that low 2-C and 2-C need a revision >. >

It's kinda like Deathstrokethehedgehog said:

"So unless someone wants to tell me MUI Goku is 33 septillion times stronger than Infinite Zamasu, Stomp match for Invisible Dragon."

It is literally a case of: A multiplier less than infinite -> low 2-C

A multiplier equal to infinity -> 2-A

This is kinda dumb to say the least

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

That's not how the tiering system work regarding Low 2-Cs and 2-Cs though. Like at all.

I don't care how high is his multiplier, can be even by googolplex (10^(10^100)), as long as he's Low 2-C, he still isn't winning against a 2-C, or someone who has a multiplier scaling them down from 2-C

I guess if you want to change it, then make a CRT since I'm not the one who made this rules of Low 2-C and 2-C

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

ID stomps

 

[InfiniteSped]

If they can't go to a higher tier simply because the difference between them is unknown, then a 2-C isn't necessarily above a Low 2-C, from what I'm gathering here. They just showed that they can cover that unknown distance with their attacks.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

1. Goku is not 2-C

2. Multipliers doesnt let you reach 2-C, thats literally a thing in the tiering system. Doesnt matter if goku has a "multiplier scaling" from that

Half 2-C doesnt have a measurable value, and is thus unquantifiable

 

[RatherClueless]

That's not how the tiering system work regarding Low 2-Cs and 2-Cs though. Like at all.

I don't care how high is his multiplier, can be even by googolplex (10^(10^100)), as long as he's Low 2-C, he still isn't winning against a 2-C, or someone who has a multiplier scaling them down from 2-C

I guess if you want to change it, then make a CRT since I'm not the one who made this rules of Low 2-C and 2-C

So u r saying MUI Goku is over 10 octillion times stronger than Infinite Zamasu?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

1. Goku is not 2-C
2. Multipliers doesnt let you reach 2-C, thats literally a thing in the tiering system. Doesnt matter if goku has a "multiplier scaling" from that

He's rated as Low 2-C by being 2 times weaker than a baseline 2-C character

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

1. Goku is not 2-C
2. Multipliers doesnt let you reach 2-C, thats literally a thing in the tiering system. Doesnt matter if goku has a "multiplier scaling" from that

He's rated as Low 2-C by being 2 times weaker than a baseline 2-C character

And? He still doesnt have a value, and cant reach 2-C unless with feats

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

So u r saying MUI Goku is over 10 octillion times stronger than Infinite Zamasu?

No. I'm saying he's 2 times weaker than a 2-C character. Also, How did you even got this number?

 

[Ugarik]

By that logic DBS characters should definatly be 2-C. I mean what's the point of them being Low 2-C if they can oneshot even the strongest Low 2-C and tank attacks from 2-C

 

[Akreious]

1. Goku is not 2-C

2. Multipliers doesnt let you reach 2-C, thats literally a thing in the tiering system. Doesnt matter if goku has a "multiplier scaling" from that

Half 2-C doesnt have a measurable value, and is thus unquantifiable

What? The whole reason why you can't go higher from Low 2-C via multipliers is because there's an unknown distance between Timelines. Beerus + Champa has demonstrated to be able to cross said distance. Therefore anyone who's twice as strong as either is 2-C because the shared feat is literally already accounting for half the distance between universes. The whole unquantifiable problem other verses face simply isn't a thing for DB; Therefore since according to our tiering system Goku can while ID cant, he's inherently stronger.

Again if you don't like it, make a CRT

 

[RatherClueless]

How I got this number? ID casually scales to 300 low 2-Cs and afterwards got 33 septillion times stronger.

 

[Ugarik]

600

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

1. Goku is not 2-C

2. Multipliers doesnt let you reach 2-C, thats literally a thing in the tiering system. Doesnt matter if goku has a "multiplier scaling" from that

Half 2-C doesnt have a measurable value, and is thus unquantifiable

What? The whole reason why you can't go higher from Low 2-C via multipliers is because there's an unknown distance between Timelines. Beerus + Champa has demonstrated to be able to cross said distance. Therefore anyone who's twice as strong as either is 2-C because the shared feat is literally already accounting for half the distance between universes. The whole unquantifiable problem other verses face simply isn't a thing for DB; Therefore since according to our tiering system Goku can while ID cant, he's inherently stronger.
Again if you don't like it, make a CRT

Is Goku two times stronger than Beerus or something? If not, his value is still unknown (and if he was, he would be 2-C)

He might be very high into Low 2-C, but we dont know how much, is what Im getting at

 

[AwkguyDB]

It's unquantifiable, you can't know how it compares to, say, being 50 times above Low 2-C baseline. If it's unknown how much stronger 2-C is compared to Low 2-C, then being half of 2-C doesn't make you any stronger than other Low 2-Cs.

I'll put it like this, If Goku, hypothetically, used a simple Kaioken while in MUI, he would be infinitely stronger than Infinite Zamasu by the wiki's definition. Nearly impossible to count number > 5,783,458,765,666┬▓ . As dumb as this sounds, Goku would by definition have a far greater AP than ID. But ID could blitz since this is unequalized because, Ran hundreds of millions of light years in less than a Planck time, what the hell even is that XD.... unless the billions of attacks he gets off on Goku tickle him XD

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

That's not how the tiering system work regarding Low 2-Cs and 2-Cs though. Like at all.
I don't care how high is his multiplier, can be even by googolplex (10^(10^100)), as long as he's Low 2-C, he still isn't winning against a 2-C, or someone who has a multiplier scaling them down from 2-C

I guess if you want to change it, then make a CRT since I'm not the one who made this rules of Low 2-C and 2-C

2-C is not infinitely beyond Low 2-C, only unquantifiably above Low 2-C. For all we know, it could be eight times Low 2-C, fifty times Low 2-C. five thousand times Low 2-C, etc. We don't know. We can't measure the distance between two timelines.

And since fiction has a big variance between the two, that leads to massive inconsistencies, hence why people say 'only upgrade someone to 2-C when there's feats', because then there's concrete solidified evidence.

But what you're saying is that this value is universal across fiction.

 

[RatherClueless]

>600

oof, my bad. 20 octillion it is

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Is Goku two times stronger than Beerus or something? If not, his value is still unknown (and if he was, he would be 2-C)

He might be very high into Low 2-C, but we dont know how much, is what Im getting at

No. He's comparable to Beerus, who can perform a 2-C feat alongside his brother Champa (Meaning that each of them contributed half of the AP for this feat)

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Is Goku two times stronger than Beerus or something? If not, his value is still unknown (and if he was, he would be 2-C)

He might be very high into Low 2-C, but we dont know how much, is what Im getting at

No. He's comparable to Beerus, who can perform a 2-C feat alongside his brother Champa (Meaning that each of them contributed half of the AP for this feat)

>Comparable to Beerus

How much above baseline is Beerus?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

But what you're saying is that this value is universal across fiction.

That's not what I'm saying. That's what the wiki is saying.

Accroding to the tiering system in the wiki, a 2-C character is treated as infinitely stronger than a Low 2-C (technically unquantifiably above baseline Low 2-C, but is still bigger than any finite multiplier)

 

[AwkguyDB]

Is Goku two times stronger than Beerus or something? If not, his value is still unknown (and if he was, he would be 2-C)

He might be very high into Low 2-C, but we dont know how much, is what Im getting at

No. He's comparable to Beerus, who can perform a 2-C feat alongside his brother Champa (Meaning that each of them contributed half of the AP for this feat)

>Comparable to Beerus
How much above baseline is Beerus?

Literally Half 2-C so Unquantifiably or Uncountably above Baseline.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

So its still unquantifiable....sigh, we are getting nowhere

 

[RatherClueless]

like I`ve said, let's just revise low 2-C and 2-C

 

[Ugarik]

Accroding to the tiering system in the wiki, a 2-C character is treated as infinitely stronger than a Low 2-C (technically unquantifiably above baseline Low 2-C, but is still bigger than any finite multiplier)

What's the problem. Deviding infinitly by two is still infinitly.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

But what you're saying is that this value is universal across fiction.

That's not what I'm saying. That's what the wiki is saying.
Accroding to the tiering system in the wiki, a 2-C character is treated as infinitely stronger than a Low 2-C (technically unquantifiably above baseline Low 2-C, but is still bigger than any finite multiplier)

The problem here is that there's a scaling chain from Baseline Low 2-C to the Highest Low 2-C in DBS. We don't have an exact number, but it's essentially quantified to be far below 33 septillion times above baseline Low 2-C.