Restoring Goku scaling to Second Form Frieza (Dragon Ball Z)

[Vizer04]

The purpose of this thread is to restore Goku and Ginyu's High 5-A ratings, that were removed for reasons that are no longer valid. All of the evidence provided here can be found in the original manga. Now let's get started.

Thanks to his arduous training on increased gravity, Goku was convinced that his body could withstand a Kaio-ken x10:

Goku implied he would've been able to assist his friends against Second Form Frieza:

Goku was not expecting to obtain a huge zenkai after healing from his wounds, he believed his body had already reached it's limits by that point:

The option of the Spirit Bomb wasn't on his mind either. After Frieza ascended into his third form, Goku thought all hope was lost, even if he was healed:

Therefore, Goku should downscale from Second Form Frieza's AP (29.6493339 Quettatons).

Nothing contradicts this and it doesn't affect anyone else other than Goku himself, who we already know was vastly superior to everyone on Planet Namek:

Agree: 5 (@Vizer04, @Darkmon_cns, @Ednaxel2, @RenderGK and @AwkguyDB)

Neutral:

Disagree:

 

[Darkmon_cns]

I see nothing wrong with this at a glance

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Just for the sake of knowing, what was the reason for removing it?

 

[Vizer04]

Just for the sake of knowing, what was the reason for removing it?

Removing Goku scaling to Second Form Frieza (Dragon Ball Z)

Dragon Ball Z's Son Goku's third key (AKA Ginyu Fight Goku) has this AP justification: Dwarf Star level (Easily defeated Recoome, Burter, and Jeice), up to at least Dwarf Star level+ with Kaio-ken (Stated he was capable of performing a Kaio-ken x10. Surpassed Ginyu in power, leading to him...

vsbattles.com

 

[Ednaxel2]

I agree

 

[Darkmon_cns]

I will say on one part of that, goku going from I could help! to I'm not sure if I can help anymore... dose imply be legitimately thought he could help before otherwise I see no need for the change I'm thought process


As for him using a higher kioken... what dose it matter? Shouldn't it still be applied if goku thought he could use it to help?

Don't we still use guide book power levels on some occasions? Can't we just compare second from freiza's power level to 10 times goku's power level against ginyu?


Edit: And if goku was considering the spirit bomb, he wouldn't have switched his tune to no I can't help sense he considers the spirit bomb viable against even final form frieza.

 

[RenderGK]

Look fine

 

[AwkguyDB]

i agree

 

[Darkmon_cns]

I do see one issue tho, goku implies he thought he had reach him limit before, not necessarily that he thinks it now, tho sense he thought formerly he was at his limit it's reasonable he thinks that now besides I don't even think goku knows what a zenki boost is at this point unless there's a time vegeta talks about it in front of him?

 

[Ednaxel2]

As for him using a higher kioken... what dose it matter? Shouldn't it still be applied if goku thought he could use it to help?

The thing is Kaio-ken x10 is already above Goku's limits at that point. A battle power of 3,000,000 is needed to use Kaio-ken x10, yet Goku can use it at 90,000. So the argument that Goku could use Kaio-ken over 10x for Frieza is very iffy, especially when it's never implied he can go beyond 10x

 

[Darkmon_cns]

The thing is Kaio-ken x10 is already above Goku's limits at that point. A battle power of 3,000,000 is needed to use Kaio-ken x10, yet Goku can use it at 90,000. So the argument that Goku could use Kaio-ken over 10x for Frieza is very iffy, especially when it's never implied he can go beyond 10x

What is this resource exactly? I feel like goku saying in manga that he thinks he can handle it is much more relevant

 

[Ednaxel2]

What is this resource exactly?

resource? If you mean source then it's the Daizenshuu for the first image

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Well I still think goku saying he can handle it overwrite the secondary matrial.

Also generally for it not to apply for this reason would require goku not know his own limit for kioken, which he definitely dose given he did in the sayain saga. (Example if kioken times 5 is his limit now, goku shouldn't think he can help with frieza with a 20 because he knows he can't handle it) but anyway that's speculative, even if this reasoning went without standing against it I think it would still apply with the possible rating.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Well I still think goku saying he can handle it overwrite the secondary matrial.

It doesn't overwrite it, it just means Goku using Kaio-ken x10 is him pushing it over his limits

It's made heavily clear that Kaio-ken x3 and 4 was putting a strain on Goku in the Saiyan Arc, but he could still handle them due to his willpower/endurance

 

[Darkmon_cns]

It doesn't overwrite it, it just means Goku using Kaio-ken x10 is him pushing it over his limits

It's made heavily clear that Kaio-ken x3 and 4 was putting a strain on Goku in the Saiyan Arc, but he could still handle them due to his willpower/endurance

If they were his limit he'd have died king Kia makes that very clear. They weren't even if he was pushing it he was still able to handle them. What goku said matters more then the secondary matrial and he said he could handle it.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Either way limit or not, if goku thinks he can effectivly fight frieza with that number of kioken, why wouldn't it make it onto the profile? If goku thought he was just going kioken for a bit and hitting freiza once, he wouldn't think he could help anyway he'd still think all hope was lost, so I don't really see this.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

But this is somewhat important, do we know if vegeta had talked about xenkias in front of goku before? If he hadn't goku shouldn't know about it and have the aurgment for goku thinking he could win for a none profileable reason go out the window (I think the better half of it too...)

 

[Ednaxel2]

If they were his limit he'd have died king Kia makes that very clear. They weren't even if he was pushing it he was still able to handle them. What goku said matters more then the secondary matrial and he said he could handle it.

No it's explained that Goku using Kaioken above two times would result in his body getting strained and eventually destroyed

Which is literally what we see with Kaioken x3, straining his body throughout the fight, yet he can still handle it.

The very same logic can be applied to Kaioken x10 for Namek Goku, he can use it above the normal limit but it causes a great strain on him

 

[Darkmon_cns]

No it's explained that Goku using Kaioken above two times would result in his body getting strained and eventually destroyed

Which is literally what we see with Kaioken x3, straining his body throughout the fight, yet he can still handle it.

The very same logic can be applied to Kaioken x10 for Namek Goku, he can use it above the normal limit but it causes a great strain on him

Even if that was true, which it isn't necessarily, it would still apply for the profile with stamina issues. I Firmly believe if goku thought he could only get off one shot he wouldn't think he could actually help and think it's hopeless like with 3rd form frieza.

 

[Robo432343]

ednaxel is always right

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Also alternative take, if goku thinks he might not be able to win after 3rd form frieza, it means goku thought he probably could beat not just fight for a bit against second form frieza- implying whatever he'd use to fight he'd be able to use it effectively.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

No it's explained that Goku using Kaioken above two times would result in his body getting strained and eventually destroyed

Which is literally what we see with Kaioken x3, straining his body throughout the fight, yet he can still handle it.

The very same logic can be applied to Kaioken x10 for Namek Goku, he can use it above the normal limit but it causes a great strain on him

Can we agree goku shouldn't be able to effectively fight with whatever he thinks he has to bear freiza with, and therefore it deserves to be added to the profile?