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Ren Amamiya vs Nahobino

Joker doesn't start with negotiating with demons when fighting against enemies that summoned shadows, so if Nahobino is strong enough Joker would just get killed before all that.
Joker starts with whatever and I'd say Nahobino summoning additional allies would be a good primer for him to do such. Also neglecting Joker's influence overrides mindhax so not sure how they'd resist.
What you're saying about Elizabeth and her Personas isn't true, her soul does merge with the archetype when summoning a Persona
No, it doesn't. The only one who somewhat merges with her his Thanatos [2] and that's specifically because of Minato's imprint and once she actually obtained her own Fool Arcana. Attendants house persona in their compendium otherwise.

1
Japanese
ベルベットルームの番人は 奇跡を探す流浪の旅へ エリザベスはベルベットルームの住人であっ たが、 2年前から職務を放棄して旅をしてい る。 ベルベットルームに仕える者は皆、自身 が何者であるかを問う定めにあり、ゆえに彼 女は、自分の意義とルーツを求めて力を集め る“力を司る者” という顔も持つ。 ペルソナ全 書を扱う仕事柄、 ペルソナに造詣が深く、 エリ ザベス自身も強力なペルソナを操る。 通常の ペルソナ使いは自分の心を象った分身として ペルソナを召還するが、 エリザベスの場合は ペルソナ全書からペルソナを召還している。 本作で従えるのは、死を司る神タナトス。 タ ナトスとは、かつて 『PERSONA3』の主人公 が身に宿し、不可分の存在ともなっていた特 別なペルソナである。 このことは、エリザベ スの旅の目的とも無関係でないはずだ。
English
The Keeper of the Velvet Room Goes on a Wandering Journey in Search of Miracles Elizabeth used to be a resident of the Velvet Room, but two years ago she abandoned her duties to travel. All those who serve the Velvet Room are destined to question who they are, so she also has the face of a "person who controls power" who gathers power in search of her own meaning and roots. Due to the nature of her work dealing with the complete Persona book, she has a deep knowledge of Personas, and Elizabeth herself can manipulate powerful Personas. A normal persona user summons a persona as an alter ego in the shape of her own mind, but in Elizabeth's case, she summons a persona from the persona book. In this work, Thanatos, the god of death, is served. Thanatos is a special persona that once resided in the protagonist of "PERSONA3" and became an indivisible existence. This must have something to do with the purpose of Elizabeth's journey.

2
Japanese
私も・・・今は自分で決めた 願い事があるのです。 その成就には、永い時が 必要かも知れない・・・ P-1 Grand Prix Story Digest ベルベットルームでの役目から離れて2年、エリザベスは、 心の深 淵な世界で永い旅路の途中であった。 外の世界を知らなかった自 分がなぜ旅になど出たのか。 それは、 長年悩み続けてきた “自分は 何者なのか ” という根源の答えに行き着いたからに過ぎない。 自 分が何者であるかは、 探すものではなく自分で決めるもの。 その自 由な余地のことを人は “可能性” と呼ぶ。 ならばエリザベス自身の “可能性”を信じ、自分が叶えたい望みを追う旅に出よう。 エリ
English
I also have a wish that I have decided for myself now. It may take a long time to achieve that goal... P-1 Grand Prix Story Digest Two years after leaving her role in the Velvet Room, Elizabeth was on a long journey in the depths of her heart. . Why did I go on a journey when I didn't know the outside world? It's just because I've arrived at the answer to the root of "Who am I?" Who you are is what you decide, not what you look for. People call this free space “possibility.” Then believe in Elizabeth's own "possibility" and go on a journey to pursue your wishes. Eli
 
His personas use the power of the demon, amplified by his heart, and his bonds or confidants

You know how Nyx is stronger than masakado right? Makoto Yuki summoned Surt for like the first time and he could slice apart Nyx's arms, and Odin could block Nyx's physical strikes with effort. Joker's Alice and Yoshitsune did a lot of damage to Shido, which also supports my argument that his Personas should be a lot stronger than regular incarnations of those demons. You explained why Nahobino is immensely superior to Thor, but are his demons strong enough to one shot Thor like Okuninushi did?
To a extent, I do agree with this. The Persona's Ren holds in his heart should be amplified by his Bonds, like all Persona's are usually shown/stated to be.


That's fair but not really applicable as a refutation of my stance. I'm not comparing levels between games. I'm utilizing the common presence of Thor between games and then utilizing Thor's level in SMT 5 to compare him to other demons being brought up. Particularly as it relates to negotiation which is directly correlated to level in the story and as a game mechanic.

Yes, but once again, I am not comparing levels across games. I am comparing Thor across games and utilizing his level to scale him to the demons found in SMT 5 (since that's Naho's native game) and where that would place Joker in strength. The whole point of me doing such is to not cross-scale levels from different games and get an objective standard to compare Joker to the SMT 5 verse.
I understand that you're not cross scaling, but you seem to be missing the point. The point of the argument is that using Level's to scale demons when said level varies so drastically is iffy. I understand we need a way to scale character's between games, but when we're in a world where a character can be level 38 in one game and then 72 in another, or where Odin can be a higher Level than Loki, but then Loki can be a higher level than Odin, it shows that Level Scaling clearly cannot be 100% accurate and reliable.
For example, Let's say we have Karna as a Persona. Karna is a high powered, level 70 persona in both game a and game b. Then, we have Arjuna. Arjuna in game A is level 65. However, in game B, Arjuna is Level 75. So, is Karna stronger than Arjuna, or is Karna weaker than Arjuna? Same applies here. Surtr could just as easily be a higher level than Thor, as he could be a lower level, dependent on the game. So, if in game A Surtr is weaker than Thor, Joker should scale above. But if in game B Surtr is massively above Thor, then Joker might not scale so easily. Does that mean it's a case by case basis?
Also keep in mind that these Demon's/Persona's can be raised in Level to be higher than other's. Does that mean that if Joker rose Thor to be level 90, that Thor would scale above Odin? Yet Lore say's otherwise. Level scaling is a whole mess that can go wrong way too easily. I do agree that the game presents a clear power structure in the form of when x Character fights x Demon, but Level scaling in itself isn't something we can 100% rely on, and Lore should be looked to first before we rely on Level Scaling to fill any gaps.


Joker doesn't start with negotiating with demons when fighting against enemies that summoned shadows, so if Nahobino is strong enough Joker would just get killed before all that. What you're saying about Elizabeth and her Personas isn't true, her soul does merge with the archetype when summoning a Persona
Joker can start with just about anything. He is just as likely to spam Sleep hax as he is to rail the opponent with Electric Attacks, and he's just as likely to start with the Grappling Hook as he is to start with his Gun. We've already established across numerous threads that Joker has little in the way of a character to base his fighting style on, so it is assumed that he can, and will, try out just about anything, and then adjust his fighting style to be optimal to what he finds out about the enemy.


Surt is stronger during Rangorak because he is suiciding existence. I'm arguing that it's not honest to argue this as scaling for his combat ability given that it's not applicable to Surt at all times and while a high end application of his magic, is not something that makes him flat out stronger in terms of combat prowess.
... Fair to a extent. Surtr's suicidal attack may not be something he does in character in combat and/or may have been a sort of ultimate move that required charging. But that is conjecture and there is little else to base Surtr's power on.


What do you mean? The entry provided clearly is recounting the events of the actual myth and mentions Freyr. The whole fatalistic aspect of his involvement is that he can no longer utilize his sword because he gave it as sign of courtship (Iirc) and thus was unable to fight at his best. This being the same man who has a story of beating a giant utilizing the stag antler. Thor is better combatant than him, which combined with Surtr only nuking existence after Odin and Thor are dead, gives serious pause to the idea of just looking at one extremely high end feat for Surt, and asserrting that just means he is blatantly stronger.
Well, even though he is unable to fight at his best, is it implied anywhere that if he had his sword, the actual fight would go significantly differently? That is to ask, can you show where it would be implied that with the sword, he could or would win?
Also, due to the fact that Surtr was fated to do it after those two died, I don't think it's fair to outright ban him from being stronger by saying that it's because he only acted after they died. Yaldabaoth only appear's after Makoto Yuki died, so I suppose he's weaker than him by this logic.


That wouldn't change the fact that Surt is implied to lose the fight if Freyr had a sword. Meaning that the idea that Surt is just casually stronger than other Norse gods and beings is not correct.
Where is it implied? I have yet to see where this is implied.

Milly was arguing Surt's position in the chain is a measure of his overall combat prowess. If Surt was of the level claimed here, he wouldn't have struggled with a swordless god. The myth clearly depicts Freyr as a roadblock to Surt and arguably implies Freyr could have won with a sword. So this power that he used to nuke existence not only threatens his own life, but is power he clearly can't just conjure in any combat scenario.
I would once again like to ask where it is implied... Though, the fact that Surtr is so high on the chain supposedly but didn't simply bat away Freyr does help your position. I think I'm leaning a little more to the idea of Surtr not producing that level of power all the time.


I already explained why the AP argument doesn't work. When Joker or any summoner is making a contract with a demon they are typically doing so to attain their power that is stronger than their own. For starters, most fights in game involve the protagonist jumping a smaller level of enemies. Rarely is the protagonist alone capable of 1v1'ing a lot of the demons as they progress through leveling. Secondly, Demons typically far output the power of the human themselves. Compare Joker's gun/knife damage to his elemental attacks from his persona.

As I said above, respect and resonance are typically the key factors involved. Especially with persona, which are just aspects of the self and merge with the user, but even devil summoner allies are referred to as "Nakama," and this underlies the whole point of conversation, bribery, etc, being used to gain a new ally. Non of those things have anything to do with power. Power is however a factor, but you still have to use other demons to fight and rough the demon up before they just take your word for it. Joker is in a unique position because of his fate stuff, social link skills, and the fact that he has to undo mindwipe from a palace owner, not just regularly convince the demons.
I don't inherently disagree with any of the refutations made here, and In fact, arguably I agree with how much the Sun Arcana statement is brought up and all, that recruiting stronger demons isn't a big deal.



That's inherently false. Rulers of power are born with their inherent ability to control persona and what not. Their name itself indicates this, they are simply tasked with ruling power and are nigh god like beings just because. However, it's made clear they lack actual life experience and proper bonding. The whole reason that Liz leaves the room is because of the bond she experiences with Makoto and her journey to actually explore that bond and herself. Human/Koro open up their persona through intense feelings (experiences), self-realization and bonds with their social links. The attendants clearly lack all of those aforementioned aspects and live a largely functional existence.

I don't agree. For instance, we can directly compare Morgana and the rulers of power. Morgana had to strengthen his persona through battle and experience with the crew. He also only has one persona that is directly tied to his soul. That's clearly different than the Attendants who have power without experience and house persona in a compendium (a book separate from themselves) as opposed to their soul.
The entire point that was originally made by Milly was that Non-Human persona User's and Human persona user's alike have certain cases where they are forced to self heal (I think). While the Velvet Attendents may not have these experiences directly bonded to them, the Persona's they use would hold the same general Physiology a Persona holds while they are using them. When using these Persona's, their resistances change, meaning that even though they are using the Compendium as a conduit through which to summon Persona's of another, the general rules of a Persona and how they affect the user still apply.
 
Joker starts with whatever and I'd say Nahobino summoning additional allies would be a good primer for him to do such. Also neglecting Joker's influence overrides mindhax so not sure how they'd resist.

No, it doesn't. The only one who somewhat merges with her his Thanatos [2] and that's specifically because of Minato's imprint and once she actually obtained her own Fool Arcana. Attendants house persona in their compendium otherwise.

1


2
No he starts with magic and stuff not negotiation and Elizabeth still reshapes her heart when summoning a Persona even if its from the compendium. And where is the first scan from? Persona users wouldn't need to use healing spells if they could just regen
 
To a extent, I do agree with this. The Persona's Ren holds in his heart should be amplified by his Bonds, like all Persona's are usually shown/stated to be.

Joker can start with just about anything. He is just as likely to spam Sleep hax as he is to rail the opponent with Electric Attacks, and he's just as likely to start with the Grappling Hook as he is to start with his Gun. We've already established across numerous threads that Joker has little in the way of a character to base his fighting style on, so it is assumed that he can, and will, try out just about anything, and then adjust his fighting style to be optimal to what he finds out about the enemy.
No we see how he fights in the anime, manga and some cutscenes and he doesn't start the fight with negotiation when he's fighting someone who summons demons that are stronger than him
 
My argument was that Joker has experience fighting multiple foes at once. Thus the factor of fighting multiple people at once will have its impact mitigated since Joker has experience here. I never said anything about Raw stats or his experience alone nullifying that.
Sure, I understand that much. My issue with that assertion ultimately boils down to you incorporating feats from an older version of Ren into your analysis of his younger self. And, even if we operate under the assumption that Strikers/Scrambles is the most accurate portrayal of the combat in-lore, Ren is canonically joined by the rest of the Phantom Thieves during the vast majority of his battles. Ren doesn't have much experience fighting solo against multiple enemies who are least comparable (and likely vastly superior) to himself.
 
No he starts with magic and stuff not negotiation and Elizabeth still reshapes her heart when summoning a Persona even if its from the compendium. And where is the first scan from? Persona users wouldn't need to use healing spells if they could just regen
He starts with whatever he wants. He is an RPG character. If he comes to the conclusion that he can turn Nahobino's greatest strength in the match into his weakness he is going to take it.

No you're wrong, literally read what I posted
Due to the nature of her work dealing with the complete Persona book, she has a deep knowledge of Personas, and Elizabeth herself can manipulate powerful Personas. A normal persona user summons a persona as an alter ego in the shape of her own mind, but in Elizabeth's case, she summons a persona from the persona book. In this work, Thanatos, the god of death, is served. Thanatos is a special persona that once resided in the protagonist of "PERSONA3" and became an indivisible existence. This must have something to do with the purpose of Elizabeth's journey.
The only attendant who is realized enough to wear a persona on their soul is Elizabeth because of Makoto. The other attendants do not unlock personae via realization or lived experience. They are rulers of power and inherently born with the capacity to utilize the compendium.

No, their regen is only applicable to being erased. So yes, they would still need healing spells for other types of injury.
 
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SMy issue with that assertion ultimately boils down to you incorporating feats from an older version of Ren into your analysis of his younger self.
This has no bearing unless you think a rusty and reset Joker just suddenly learned how to move differently. Given that Joker can fight as such from the beginning of scramblers, and his mid game self from P5 is canonically stronger and more skilled, I don't really see an issue with this point.
And, even if we operate under the assumption that Strikers/Scrambles is the most accurate portrayal of the combat in-lore, Ren is canonically joined by the rest of the Phantom Thieves during the vast majority of his battles.
That doesn't really matter as the thieves are frequently outnumbered by the dozens, a number nowhere even close to the situation here. It's also not really an "assumption" unless you are positing that Joker (and by extension Nahobino) and his crew literally fight turn based with all of the other game mechanics involved. Like by this logic I can just say since the fight stops during Joker's negotiations, that Joker can just abuse that until he's taken all of Nahobino's allies. OBviously a game mechanic.
Ren doesn't have much experience fighting solo against multiple enemies who are least comparable (and likely vastly superior) to himself.
That's false, see above, and in addition, Ren can canonically win his way out of ambushes (which can be up to 1 v 4) at varying points in the fight, so much so that, a good number of skills he can learn are specifically tailored to this.
 
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Sure, I understand that much. My issue with that assertion ultimately boils down to you incorporating feats from an older version of Ren into your analysis of his younger self. And, even if we operate under the assumption that Strikers/Scrambles is the most accurate portrayal of the combat in-lore, Ren is canonically joined by the rest of the Phantom Thieves during the vast majority of his battles. Ren doesn't have much experience fighting solo against multiple enemies who are least comparable (and likely vastly superior) to himself.
Its a waste of time to be talking about Strikers here. His experience with fighting hordes is just a range feat, its barely something that is important in this fight. He already has other spells that have good enough range in p5

He starts with whatever he wants. He is an RPG character. If he comes to the conclusion that he can turn Nahobino's greatest strength in the match into his weakness he is going to take it.

No you're wrong, literally read what I posted

The only attendant who is realized enough to wear a persona on their soul is Elizabeth because of Makoto. The other attendants do not unlock personae via realization or lived experience. They are rulers of power and inherently born with the capacity to utilize the compendium.
Prove he starts with whatever he wants

I posted a scan of Elizabeth changing her heart when summoning Thor. Maybe the Persona comes from the book but she still changes her soul right after that

No, their regen is only applicable to being erased. So yes, they would still need healing spells for other types of injury.

Nahobino isn't gonna erase Ren though, but I'm still voting Ren because he can one shot Thor, but my opinion could change
 
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Prove he starts with whatever he wants
Ok, Joker is an rpg character and thusly can start with whatever he wants.

Glad we could clear that up.
I posted a scan of Elizabeth changing her heart when summoning Thor. Maybe the Persona comes from the book but she still changes her soul right after that
She doesn't go through bonds. Bonds is the one thing that specifically brings people back from existence erasure. Maybe Elizabeth can do it after the events of P4AU, but she hasn't shown that much resolve from bonds and that would be the only case of it being applicable to attendants.

So nah.
Nahobino isn't gonna erase Ren though, but I'm still voting Ren because he can one shot Thor, but my opinion could change
Surt might and I'm not sure if Almighty is something available to Naho at this point, but if it is, then that's also a counter to that.
 
I understand that you're not cross scaling, but you seem to be missing the point. The point of the argument is that using Level's to scale demons when said level varies so drastically is iffy. I understand we need a way to scale character's between games, but when we're in a world where a character can be level 38 in one game and then 72 in another, or where Odin can be a higher Level than Loki, but then Loki can be a higher level than Odin, it shows that Level Scaling clearly cannot be 100% accurate and reliable.
That's fine but not really applicable to what I am saying. Across games, we scale via lore, feats, and portrayal. So I am using Thor's feats, lore and portrayal to scale Joker, and then taking the version of Thor in SMT 5 (with the same lore, feats, and portrayal as the one in Joker's verse) to compare them. There is no other way to do this, especially when talking about negotiation specifically. So I don't think the above applies here.
For example, Let's say we have Karna as a Persona. Karna is a high powered, level 70 persona in both game a and game b. Then, we have Arjuna. Arjuna in game A is level 65. However, in game B, Arjuna is Level 75. So, is Karna stronger than Arjuna, or is Karna weaker than Arjuna? Same applies here. Surtr could just as easily be a higher level than Thor, as he could be a lower level, dependent on the game. So, if in game A Surtr is weaker than Thor, Joker should scale above. But if in game B Surtr is massively above Thor, then Joker might not scale so easily. Does that mean it's a case by case basis?
Also keep in mind that these Demon's/Persona's can be raised in Level to be higher than other's. Does that mean that if Joker rose Thor to be level 90, that Thor would scale above Odin? Yet Lore say's otherwise. Level scaling is a whole mess that can go wrong way too easily. I do agree that the game presents a clear power structure in the form of when x Character fights x Demon, but Level scaling in itself isn't something we can 100% rely on, and Lore should be looked to first before we rely on Level Scaling to fill any gaps.
You realize demons strength can vary depending on the plot fo the game correct? Lucifer himself varies from being scared to fight Satan to literally killing YHWH.

Your Surt argument also doesn't make sense. We know how strong Surt is compared to Thor in SMT 5. We also know, that in P5, Thor also outlevels Surt again. So I don't think bringing up irrelevant hypotheticals based on possible cases or really fringe cases does much to defend Surt here, especially if, once again, we are talking about their interactions with negotiations and not necessarily just raw AP.
... Fair to a extent. Surtr's suicidal attack may not be something he does in character in combat and/or may have been a sort of ultimate move that required charging. But that is conjecture and there is little else to base Surtr's power on.
Not really, we know Surt's myth and his general standing in the verse. He is still strong, but we don't need to ignore evidence and appeal to his high end and then misrepresent that as his casual AP, nor make crazy claims like Surt is >>>> Thor.
Well, even though he is unable to fight at his best, is it implied anywhere that if he had his sword, the actual fight would go significantly differently?
What do you mean? What other implication can you pull from that? If Zoro from One Piece fought an opponent without swords and the manga goes out of it's way to highlight this fact after he loses to another character, what would you think the point of mentioning said plot point would be? Are you going to tell me Zoro without his swords isn't nerfed? If Zoro was able to fight an opponent to mid to high difficulty without his swords, do you think the opponent would beat him easier with his swords?

There was clearly some form of parity between Surt and Freyr that resulted in Surt not being able to stomp him, despite Freyr being handicapped. I don't really understand the confusion regarding this point.
That is to ask, can you show where it would be implied that with the sword, he could or would win?
Also, due to the fact that Surtr was fated to do it after those two died, I don't think it's fair to outright ban him from being stronger by saying that it's because he only acted after they died.
You can't always play the fate game though. Cause I can just as much say that fate needed Thor and Odin dead because they would have acted had they not been dead. You keep doing this thing where you ignore the obvious implications of the story.
Where is it implied? I have yet to see where this is implied.
I don't know how to make the implication much clearer. If I'm a boxer and I fight you to a high diff fight without two broken arms, do you think you would win if I got use of my arms back?
The entire point that was originally made by Milly was that Non-Human persona User's and Human persona user's alike have certain cases where they are forced to self heal (I think). While the Velvet Attendents may not have these experiences directly bonded to them, the Persona's they use would hold the same general Physiology a Persona holds while they are using them. When using these Persona's, their resistances change, meaning that even though they are using the Compendium as a conduit through which to summon Persona's of another, the general rules of a Persona and how they affect the user still apply.
Nah.

Milly's point about healing is moot because we are talking about EE. That's the only time this regen applies otherwise they just get standard low mid or whatever.

And no, that's not how it works. Persona users get this regen because of the specific bonds they formed, both in PQ2 and in P5 persona users needed deep bonds to attach to in order to come back to reality. The only attendant who has this Elizabeth because of her persona Thanatos being shared from Makoto, so she's really the only one who can arguably do such. The godly regen isn't just standard equipment like persona stats, madness manip resistance, etc.
 
Ren uses evil smile from the legion persona and AOE fear haxes all his demons off the field including the nahobino since he's got no real resistance to it.
 
This has no bearing unless you think a rusty and reset Joker just suddenly learned how to move differently. Given that Joker can fight as such from the beginning of scramblers, and his mid game self from P5 is canonically stronger and more skilled, I don't really see an issue with this point.
I think it ultimately boils down to whether Strikers/Scramble's gameplay is the most realistic depiction of how combat works in-lore, which I honestly don't care enough about to argue at the moment. I'll concede.

That doesn't really matter as the thieves are frequently outnumbered by the dozens, a number no where even close to the situation here.
There's more to being outnumbered in combat than the number of enemies or the ratio of allies to foes. Ren being outnumbered with his teammates, whom he can coordinate with, against Shadows is vastly different experience than fighting alone against a group of opponents commanded by a leader who both matches his versatility and is at least comparable in combat intelligence.

Ren can canonically win his way out of ambushes (which can be up to 1 v 4) at varying points in the fight, so much so that, a good number of skills he can learn are specifically tailored to this.
Again, Ren can canonically win against ambushes with the help of his team. Throughout both P5 and Strikers, Ren rarely ever fights on his lonesome; the implication being that, regardless of whether he's fighting in Mementos, a Palace, or a Prison, he's always joined by his peers.

Ren uses evil smile from the legion persona and AOE fear haxes all his demons off the field including the nahobino since he's got no real resistance to it.
All Demons have an inherent resistance to mind manipulation, which would include fear affliction as well. Nahobino's party can also cure one another and themselves with Patra and Diamrita.
 
Substantiate this.
You got multiple mind haxes sleep, dizzy, forget, fear, brainjack, etc. If all demons have resistance to mind hax then why can you just still slap demons that aren't either gameplay bosses or anyone that has null/resist mind with just about any of these mind haxes.
Unless inverse mind haxes clearly have higher layers to effect demons who don't have the proper resists, I don't see why nahobino and his demons just have a physiology based resistance that not even consistent all around. otherwise why even prod for Me Patra spell rebuttal if you resist mind hax in your physiology.
 
Then explain to me why demons still need me parta to cure themselves of mental status effects that they can still catch other demons lacking with the wrong affinity based resistances. If ren can take the flying meatball legion and fear hax a bunch of shadows lacking the right resistances who should have cognitive physiology I don't see why nahobino just gets a they resistance via physiology pass on it.
 
Then explain to me why demons still need me parta to cure themselves of mental status effects that they can still catch other demons lacking with the wrong affinity based resistances. If ren can take the flying meatball legion and fear hax a bunch of shadows lacking the right resistances who should have cognitive physiology I don't see why nahobino just gets a they resistance via physiology pass on it.
Because having a resistance to an ability doesn't equate to immunity. Nahobino's party having a resistance to mind manipulation gives them a chance of not being afflicted with fear, in the same manner that Shadows in Persona aren't guaranteed to be affected by an ailment spell.

And in all likelihood, Nahobino should have a specific resistance to fear manipulation. Megami Tensei operates on a universal power system wherein all magic, lore-wise, functions identically across each entry. The lack of the "fear" status effect in SMTV is simply a gameplay decision on the developer's part, as opposed to an anti-feat. It wouldn't make sense for Demons who had previously displayed the capability of using fear-inflicting magic to suddenly just...not be able to use it.
 
Because having a resistance to an ability doesn't equate to immunity. Nahobino's party having a resistance to mind manipulation gives them a chance of not being afflicted with fear, in the same manner that Shadows in Persona aren't guaranteed to be affected by an ailment spell.

And in all likelihood, Nahobino should have a specific resistance to fear manipulation. Megami Tensei operates on a universal power system wherein all magic, lore-wise, functions identically across each entry. The lack of the "fear" status effect in SMTV is simply a gameplay decision on the developer's part, as opposed to an anti-feat. It wouldn't make sense for Demons who had previously displayed the capability of using fear-inflicting magic to suddenly just...not be able to use it.
Then by that logic ren shouldn't be guaranteed to get afflicted by status effect spam since he's a persona user.
 
Nobody claimed the contrary. There's simply a higher change of him being affected by the spells with multiple Demons working in collaboration.
But these demons don't exactly have the best platter for options that have a counter. sleep, confusion and charm are = to dizzy and brainwash, seal is = to forget which most of these status effect get neged by succubus pajamas, thief mask, shield goggles, note book, and clarity cape. Which only really leaves poison, the most mid status effect that you might aswell let detox take care of that, mirage which only reduces accuracy and changes intended targets. what's stopping ren from just ambushing them with smokescreen and just become undetectedable to them and just pick them off one by one in the chaos.
 
But these demons don't exactly have the best platter for options that have a counter. sleep, confusion and charm are = to dizzy and brainwash, seal is = to forget which most of these status effect get neged by succubus pajamas, thief mask, shield goggles, note book, and clarity cape. Which only really leaves poison, the most mid status effect that you might aswell let detox take care of that, mirage which only reduces accuracy and changes intended targets. what's stopping ren from just ambushing them with smokescreen and just become undetectedable to them and just pick them off one by one in the chaos.
All of these ailments exist in SMT V.
 
That's not what I suggested? My argument is right there.
You said the Nahobino should have a specific resistance to fear manipulation since Megami Tensei operates on a universal power system wherein all magic, lore-wise, functions identically across each entry. Otherwise, I don't see why this quote isn't just implying all status effects are all equal regardless of what they are.
 
He's saying that a demon's mental resistance that's on cognitive physiology doesn't matter here because that applies to any demon, and Ren's abilities work on demons

I'll just say that Ren likes using instant death spells but he most likely won't start with other ailments, so if Nahobino is still too strong, he could kill Ren before he does anything
 
Otherwise, I don't see why this quote isn't just implying all status effects are all equal regardless of what they are.
You completely and utterly missed the point I was trying to make here. My argument was that, despite the fact fear doesn't appear as a status effect in the game, Nahobino should still logically have a resistance to fear manipulation, since, in terms of lore, plenty of Demons he fights against would have access to fear-inducing magic. Again, it wouldn't make sense for Demons to suddenly lose the ability to use a certain type of magic between entries when Megami Tensei's magic system is ubiquitous.
 
You completely and utterly missed the point I was trying to make here. My argument was that, despite the fact fear doesn't appear as a status effect in the game, Nahobino should still logically have a resistance to fear manipulation, since, in terms of lore, plenty of Demons he fights against would have access to fear-inducing magic. Again, it wouldn't make sense for Demons to suddenly lose the ability to use a certain type of magic between entries when Megami Tensei's magic system is ubiquitous.
How do you know Nahobino resisted it?
 
Why not just call it inconclusive since both sides seem to not find any common ground? Both Megaten characters are pretty much busted even by mid-game standards. They both would fight to a stand still, talk about each other's goals, and help restore the universe and rid the bad adults inside said universe away from the Mandala Cycle.

Or continue bickering. It's Christmas so for me I'm just getting cozy with my SO and watching Avengers lol

I could care less and watch the show. And I'm a Sumire fan
 
Because ailment spells are not guaranteed to afflict statuses. Nahobino can also acquire skills (i.e. Hellish and Abyssal Mask) and infuse himself with essences that increase his resilience against ailments.
Kinda ironic Hellish Mask straight up just links to fortify Spirit in that link.
Stagnant air practically makes that argument for nahobino having higher resistances pretty much null in the dirt, also you can't cure it so it's pretty much a waste of time to try and burn through healing spells to try and get rid of it like it's a status effect.
 
Kinda ironic Hellish Mask straight up just links to fortify Spirit in that link.
It doesn't.

Stagnant air practically makes that argument for nahobino having higher resistances pretty much null in the dirt
I never argued that Nahobino has "higher resistances". I was explaining that Joker using fear manipulation isn't the wincon you thought it was. Regardless, Nahobino can swap his Demons to those that resist ailment spells, in addition to simply...using Patra/Me Patra whenever they are afflicted.
 
Why not just call it inconclusive since both sides seem to not find any common ground? Both Megaten characters are pretty much busted even by mid-game standards. They both would fight to a stand still, talk about each other's goals, and help restore the universe and rid the bad adults inside said universe away from the Mandala Cycle.
I'm not entirely ruling out the possibility of a incon, considering there's decent evidence for Ren as well. I just think the arguments presented for Nahobino are much more compelling.
 
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