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Nahobino vs Kama

Why is it a 1-A level?
Magic users can launch attack spiritual attacks against Demons/Shadows. In Megami Tensei, the Soul and Mind are one in the same and are composed of "Information", which comprises all concepts within the verse. This "Information" is the fundamental building block of all of Megami Tensei's reality, which obviously includes 1-A realms.

Kama doesn't even have a concept anymore
It doesn't matter if she can't resist 1-A Info/Mind/Soul manipulation.
 
Magic users can launch attack spiritual attacks against Demons/Shadows. In Megami Tensei, the Soul and Mind are one in the same and are composed of "Information", which comprises all concepts within the verse. This "Information" is the fundamental building block of all of Megami Tensei's reality, which obviously includes 1-A realms.


It doesn't matter if she can't resist 1-A Info/Mind/Soul manipulation.
Why isn't nahobino 1-A if he can damage concepts on a 1-A level then? How is that a justification of 1-A? Not all data is the same, so this wouldn't make the data that makes up all of Atziluth = the data that makes everything else. Nahobino doesn't have 1-A range on his profile so what you're saying can't be used in this matchup as having 1-A conceptual manipulation for that reason would grant 1-A range as well
 
Why isn't nahobino 1-A if he can damage concepts on a 1-A level then?
Because it's smurf hax.

How is that a justification of 1-A? Not all data is the same, so this wouldn't make the data that makes up all of Atziluth = the data that makes everything else.
You have no evidence to support your claims. The cosmology blogs disprove them regardless:
In essence, the central cornerstone of Megami Tensei's entire cosmology is the idea that reality itself is fully mental in nature: That is, at the fundamental basis of the universe, below even the sub-atomic scale, all things are reduced to nothing but an undifferentiated, infinitesimal substance that can only be described as information, more akin in nature to human thoughts than anything physical.
During an interview conducted for the fanbook Schwarzwelt Reminiscences, Strange Journey's lead director, Shougo Isogai, elaborated on what exactly "information" entails. More specifically, he expressed that the basis for the existence of demons is literally quantum information, so much so that, instead of sub-atomic particles, their most fundamental unit of existence is the qubit, the smallest unit of all in Quantum Information Theory, which represents a quantum-mechanical system of two possible states.

Nahobino doesn't have 1-A range on his profile so what you're saying can't be used in this matchup as having 1-A conceptual manipulation for that reason would grant 1-A range as well
Megami Tensei characters having smurf Mind/Info/Soul/Concept attacks (and a resistance to such attacks) has been accepted on the wiki and used in other VS threads. Make a CRT if you disagree, but you can't waiver abilities in a VS Thread because you don't personally like them. This is a stomp match as it currently stands.
 
Because it's smurf hax.


You have no evidence to support your claims. The cosmology blogs disprove them regardless:




Megami Tensei characters having smurf Mind/Info/Soul/Concept attacks (and a resistance to such attacks) has been accepted on the wiki and used in other VS threads. Make a CRT if you disagree, but you can't waiver abilities in a VS Thread because you don't personally like them. This is a stomp match as it currently stands.
I didn't disagree with data making up all that, I already addressed that. Not all data is 1-A. By your logic since the great will is made of data, every demon has hax on the level of the great will
 
I didn't disagree with data making up all that, I already addressed that. Not all data is 1-A. By your logic since the great will is made of data, every demon has hax on the level of the great will
You haven't addressed my points. The quotes and their supporting evidence make it clear that all of reality is fundamentally composed of information. "All of reality" means "all of reality", which includes everything from Assiah to at least the Atziluth.

And I'm not saying all demons have "hax on the level of The Great Will". I'm stating that they can simply attack the underlying informational/spiritual/mental/conceptual constituents of reality, which extend to 1-A realms.
 
You haven't addressed my points. The quotes and their supporting evidence make it clear that all of reality is fundamentally composed of information. "All of reality" means "all of reality", which includes everything from Assiah to at least the Atziluth.

And I'm not saying all demons have "hax on the level of The Great Will". I'm stating that they can simply attack the underlying informational/spiritual/mental/conceptual constituents of reality, which extend to 1-A realms.
I didn't disagree with that. Not all data is the same, so this wouldn't make the data that makes up all of Atziluth = the data that makes everything else.

I didn't say you said all demons have hax on the level of the great will. I'm just pointing out that if what you say is true, then any demon has great will level of hax since information makes up the great will. And again, it being 1-A is not accepted on the profile since they don't even have 1-A range
 
I didn't disagree with that. Not all data is the same, so this wouldn't make the data that makes up all of Atziluth = the data that makes everything else.
You don't have evidence to support this claim. I've provided multiple scans to support that all of reality is comprised of the same type of information.

I'm just pointing out that if what you say is true, then any demon has great will level of hax since information makes up the great will.
"I didn't say you said all demons have hax on the level of the great will. I'm saying that any demon has great will level of hax."
Regardless, there's nothing inherently wrong with that technicality. Devil May Cry has a similar property where Demons can attack their foes' Souls/Minds/Information/Concept with 9D potency. All Demons/Gods/Personas/etc in Megami Tensei are also simply physical forms through which their Archetypal forms' (which reside in the Atziluth) power are expressed as well, so there's more evidence to support the smurf hax.

And again, it being 1-A is not accepted on the profile since they don't even have 1-A range
Higher-dimensional attack potency doesn't inherently give higher-dimensional range.
 
You don't have evidence to support this claim. I've provided multiple scans to support that all of reality is comprised of the same type of information.


"I didn't say you said all demons have hax on the level of the great will. I'm saying that any demon has great will level of hax."
Regardless, there's nothing inherently wrong with that technicality. Devil May Cry has a similar property where Demons can attack their foes' Souls/Minds/Information/Concept with 9D potency. All Demons/Gods/Personas/etc in Megami Tensei are also simply physical forms through which their Archetypal forms' (which reside in the Atziluth) power are expressed as well, so there's more evidence to support the smurf hax.


Higher-dimensional attack potency doesn't inherently give higher-dimensional range.
Not all data is the same, so this wouldn't make the data that makes up all of Atziluth = the data that makes everything else. Unless you believe Satan's information = a random jack frost's information

If what you're saying is true and demons can destroy information that is 1-A in size, then demons would have 1-A range
 
Not all data is the same, so this wouldn't make the data that makes up all of Atziluth = the data that makes everything else.
You repeating the same points ad infinitum without evidence will not suddenly make them true.

Unless you believe Satan's information = a random jack frost's information
The same type of information comprises their existences.

If what you're saying is true and demons can destroy information that is 1-A in size, then demons would have 1-A range
 
Let's see here, 2nd Best Girl Kama has Resistance to the Afforementioned Conceptual, Mind, Info and Soul Manip's, as well as Seeming immunity to Concept Manip if I'm reading the profile right, but I don't think it's on a 1-A scale (Correct me if I'm wrong). As such, I believe Nahobino will Hax GG. If evidence came in of Kama being able to resist 1-A hax, then this might be more of a debate, but as it stands, the usual SMT Smurf Hax overrules.
 
Let's see here, 2nd Best Girl Kama has Resistance to the Afforementioned Conceptual, Mind, Info and Soul Manip's, as well as Seeming immunity to Concept Manip if I'm reading the profile right, but I don't think it's on a 1-A scale (Correct me if I'm wrong). As such, I believe Nahobino will Hax GG. If evidence came in of Kama being able to resist 1-A hax, then this might be more of a debate, but as it stands, the usual SMT Smurf Hax overrules.
Prove Najhinono has 1-A hax

You repeating the same points ad infinitum without evidence will not suddenly make them true.


The same type of information comprises their existences.
You never refuted my point that what you say would mean a random shadow's data would be = Satan's data, and I never mentioned a thing about AP, but destructive capacity
 
I'm just going to reiterate this, and leave it at that. This is something we've already accepted on other VS Threads and certainly not something you can choose to ignore because you don't personally agree with it.
Megami Tensei characters having smurf Mind/Info/Soul/Concept attacks (and a resistance to such attacks) has been accepted on the wiki and used in other VS threads. Make a CRT if you disagree, but you can't waiver abilities in a VS Thread because you don't personally like them. This is a stomp match as it currently stands.

"Unless you believe Satan's information = a random jack frost's information"
...I did respond to this, though?
 
I'm just going to reiterate this, and leave it at that. This is something we've already accepted on other VS Threads and certainly not something you can choose to ignore because you don't personally agree with it.



...I did respond to this, though?
"We've accepted" Who??? Why are you linking to milly's comment? He doesn't have authority



How is "The same type of information comprises their existences." a response? It doesn't answer the question
 
Also, just because Atziluth has the same Data as everything else doesn't mean that said Data inside it equates to each other, where does that logic come in?
 
"We've accepted" Who??? Why are you linking to milly's comment? He doesn't have authority
I mean...not a single other person in the thread, from either the Touhou or MegaTen supporters questioned or challenged that assertion. Multiple knowledgeable MegaTen supporters were present and voted during in the thread as well. I'm not going to go in circles with you anymore. Make a CRT if you disagree.
 
Also, just because Atziluth has the same Data as everything else doesn't mean that said Data inside it equates to each other, where does that logic come in?
Exactly, so you agree with me

I mean...not a single other person in the thread, from either the Touhou or MegaTen supporters questioned or challenged that assertion. Multiple knowledgeable MegaTen supporters were present and voted during in the thread as well. I'm not going to go in circles with you anymore. Make a CRT if you disagree.

Read these two. Also, CRTs aren't for changing what other people think, just changing stuff on profiles
 
Exactly, so you agree with me
Not, inherently. I'm saying that your argument of two different pieces of Data having to be equal makes no sense in this context. Atziluth can have the Same Data as everything else without the separate Data for Satan and Jack Frost having to equate. Hence, where is the logic that they would have to = each other
 
Not, inherently. I'm saying that your argument of two different pieces of Data having to be equal makes no sense in this context. Atziluth can have the Same Data as everything else without the separate Data for Satan and Jack Frost having to equate. Hence, where is the logic that they would have to = each other
Why would everything have the same data but not have data equal to each other? You do realize thats oxymoronic right
 
Exactly, so you agree with me



Read these two. Also, CRTs aren't for changing what other people think, just changing stuff on profiles
With your condescending response aside, what I said wasn't an appeal to authority. I wasn't arguing the inherent veracity of 1-A Info/Mind/Soul/Concept attacks with that point, but rather that the Wiki has accepted that conception previously. My point was that you cannot disregard information that has been accepted by the wiki and accounted for in previous threads.

Why would everything have the same data but not have data equal to each other?
You have two pieces of identical paper. You write the word "Yes" on one and the word "No" on the other.
 
Why would everything have the same data but not have data equal to each other? You do realize thats oxymoronic right
That's not at all the argument. The argument is that Atziluth has Data equal to Everything, not that the separate pieces of Data inside have Everything. Think of it like this: Atziluth Is a Super Computer that contains everything in the form of data. Jack Frost is a Single Program, and Satan is a Different, more powerful program. That is affected little, if at all, by having all other pieces of Data in the Computer.
 
With your condescending response aside, what I said wasn't an appeal to authority. I wasn't arguing the inherent veracity of 1-A Info/Mind/Soul/Concept attacks with that point, but rather that the Wiki has accepted that conception previously. My point was that you cannot disregard information that has been accepted by the wiki and accounted for in previous threads.


You have two pieces of identical paper. You write the word "Yes" on one and the word "No" on the other.
It was accepted by other people in the wiki and on other threads, doesn't just make it true

You have two pieces of identical paper. You write the word "Yes" on one and the word "No" on the other.

This isn't comparable at all to saying "made of the same type of data = they're both 1-A but somehow don't have the same level of AP"

That's not at all the argument. The argument is that Atziluth has Data equal to Everything, not that the separate pieces of Data inside have Everything. Think of it like this: Atziluth Is a Super Computer that contains everything in the form of data. Jack Frost is a Single Program, and Satan is a Different, more powerful program. That is affected little, if at all, by having all other pieces of Data in the Computer.

That's not at all the argument. The argument is that Atziluth has Data equal to Everything

Ok what do you think "equal" means? Equal size?

not that the separate pieces of Data inside have Everything

What does this mean

Atziluth Is a Super Computer that contains everything in the form of data. Jack Frost is a Single Program, and Satan is a Different, more powerful program. That is affected little, if at all, by having all other pieces of Data in the Computer.

If the data of a jack frost and satan aren't equal in power, why are they both 1-A? And what are they supposed to be 1-A in? Size, durability or something else? @Lukewoesal007
 
It was accepted by other people in the wiki and on other threads, doesn't just make it true
I never claimed the Wiki or those users were the word of God. My point was that, on VS Threads, you cannot disregard information that is accepted on the wiki because you don't personally believe it's right, even if said information is actually wrong.

If the data of a jack frost and satan aren't equal in power, why are they both 1-A?
Jack Frost has two 1-A keys. One of which refers to his archetypal form which naturally resides in the Atziluth, the other represents as he appears in Digital Devil Saga (he scales above previously defeated bosses such as Base Satan). All Demons have at least Baseline 1-A Info/Mind/Soul/Concept attacks due to their existence as personifications of those Archetypes. Their physicals don't usually scale to this because they're evidently weaker when anthropomorphized.

And what are they supposed to be 1-A in?
Ontology.
 
I do not care about this matchup.

All information is the same, and comes from the same place. The 1-A hax is due to the fact that they’re unfazed due to the Atziluth’s undifferentiated information, yet are capable of damaging and inflicting information on each other. As previously established, information = minds = souls = concepts.
 
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