His personas use the power of the demon,
amplified by his heart, and his bonds or confidants
You know how Nyx is stronger than masakado right? Makoto Yuki summoned Surt for like the first time and he could slice apart Nyx's arms, and Odin could block Nyx's physical strikes with effort. Joker's
Alice and Yoshitsune did a lot of damage to Shido, which also supports my argument that his Personas should be a lot stronger than regular incarnations of those demons. You explained why Nahobino is immensely superior to Thor, but are his demons strong enough to one shot Thor like Okuninushi did?
To a extent, I do agree with this. The Persona's Ren holds in his heart should be amplified by his Bonds, like all Persona's are usually shown/stated to be.
That's fair but not really applicable as a refutation of my stance. I'm not comparing levels between games. I'm utilizing the common presence of Thor between games and then utilizing Thor's level in SMT 5 to compare him to other demons being brought up. Particularly as it relates to negotiation which is directly correlated to level in the story and as a game mechanic.
Yes, but once again, I am not comparing levels across games. I am comparing Thor across games and utilizing his level to scale him to the demons found in SMT 5 (since that's Naho's native game) and where that would place Joker in strength. The whole point of me doing such is to not cross-scale levels from different games and get an objective standard to compare Joker to the SMT 5 verse.
I understand that you're not cross scaling, but you seem to be missing the point. The point of the argument is that using Level's to scale demons when said level varies so drastically is iffy. I understand we need a way to scale character's between games, but when we're in a world where a character can be level 38 in one game and then 72 in another, or where Odin can be a higher Level than Loki, but then Loki can be a higher level than Odin, it shows that Level Scaling clearly cannot be 100% accurate and reliable.
For example, Let's say we have Karna as a Persona. Karna is a high powered, level 70 persona in both game a and game b. Then, we have Arjuna. Arjuna in game A is level 65. However, in game B, Arjuna is Level 75. So, is Karna stronger than Arjuna, or is Karna weaker than Arjuna? Same applies here. Surtr could just as easily be a higher level than Thor, as he could be a lower level, dependent on the game. So, if in game A Surtr is weaker than Thor, Joker should scale above. But if in game B Surtr is massively above Thor, then Joker might not scale so easily. Does that mean it's a case by case basis?
Also keep in mind that these Demon's/Persona's can be raised in Level to be higher than other's. Does that mean that if Joker rose Thor to be level 90, that Thor would scale above Odin? Yet Lore say's otherwise. Level scaling is a whole mess that can go wrong way too easily. I do agree that the game presents a clear power structure in the form of when x Character fights x Demon, but Level scaling in itself isn't something we can 100% rely on, and Lore should be looked to first before we rely on Level Scaling to fill any gaps.
Joker doesn't start with negotiating with demons when fighting against enemies that summoned shadows, so if Nahobino is strong enough Joker would just get killed before all that. What you're saying about Elizabeth and her Personas isn't true, her soul does merge with the archetype when summoning a Persona
Joker can start with just about anything. He is just as likely to spam Sleep hax as he is to rail the opponent with Electric Attacks, and he's just as likely to start with the Grappling Hook as he is to start with his Gun. We've already established across numerous threads that Joker has little in the way of a character to base his fighting style on, so it is assumed that he can, and will, try out just about anything, and then adjust his fighting style to be optimal to what he finds out about the enemy.
Surt is stronger during Rangorak because he is suiciding existence. I'm arguing that it's not honest to argue this as scaling for his combat ability given that it's not applicable to Surt at all times and while a high end application of his magic, is not something that makes him flat out stronger in terms of combat prowess.
... Fair to a extent. Surtr's suicidal attack may not be something he does in character in combat and/or may have been a sort of ultimate move that required charging. But that is conjecture and there is little else to base Surtr's power on.
What do you mean? The entry provided clearly is recounting the events of the actual myth and mentions Freyr. The whole fatalistic aspect of his involvement is that he can no longer utilize his sword because he gave it as sign of courtship (Iirc) and thus was unable to fight at his best. This being the same man who has a story of beating a giant utilizing the stag antler. Thor is better combatant than him, which combined with Surtr only nuking existence after Odin and Thor are dead, gives serious pause to the idea of just looking at one extremely high end feat for Surt, and asserrting that just means he is blatantly stronger.
Well, even though he is unable to fight at his best, is it implied anywhere that if he had his sword, the actual fight would go significantly differently? That is to ask, can you show where it would be implied that with the sword, he could or would win?
Also, due to the fact that Surtr was fated to do it after those two died, I don't think it's fair to outright ban him from being stronger by saying that it's because he only acted after they died. Yaldabaoth only appear's after Makoto Yuki died, so I suppose he's weaker than him by this logic.
That wouldn't change the fact that Surt is implied to lose the fight if Freyr had a sword. Meaning that the idea that Surt is just casually stronger than other Norse gods and beings is not correct.
Where is it implied? I have yet to see where this is implied.
Milly was arguing Surt's position in the chain is a measure of his overall combat prowess. If Surt was of the level claimed here, he wouldn't have struggled with a swordless god. The myth clearly depicts Freyr as a roadblock to Surt and arguably implies Freyr could have won with a sword. So this power that he used to nuke existence not only threatens his own life, but is power he clearly can't just conjure in any combat scenario.
I would once again like to ask where it is implied... Though, the fact that Surtr is so high on the chain supposedly but didn't simply bat away Freyr does help your position. I think I'm leaning a little more to the idea of Surtr not producing that level of power all the time.
I already explained why the AP argument doesn't work. When Joker or any summoner is making a contract with a demon they are typically doing so to attain their power that is stronger than their own. For starters, most fights in game involve the protagonist jumping a smaller level of enemies. Rarely is the protagonist alone capable of 1v1'ing a lot of the demons as they progress through leveling. Secondly, Demons typically far output the power of the human themselves. Compare Joker's gun/knife damage to his elemental attacks from his persona.
As I said above, respect and resonance are typically the key factors involved. Especially with persona, which are just aspects of the self and merge with the user, but even devil summoner allies are referred to as "Nakama," and this underlies the whole point of conversation, bribery, etc, being used to gain a new ally. Non of those things have anything to do with power. Power is however a factor, but you still have to use other demons to fight and rough the demon up before they just take your word for it. Joker is in a unique position because of his fate stuff, social link skills, and the fact that he has to undo mindwipe from a palace owner, not just regularly convince the demons.
I don't inherently disagree with any of the refutations made here, and In fact, arguably I agree with how much the Sun Arcana statement is brought up and all, that recruiting stronger demons isn't a big deal.
That's inherently false. Rulers of power are born with their inherent ability to control persona and what not. Their name itself indicates this, they are simply tasked with ruling power and are nigh god like beings just because. However, it's made clear they lack actual life experience and proper bonding. The whole reason that Liz leaves the room is because of the bond she experiences with Makoto and her journey to actually explore that bond and herself. Human/Koro open up their persona through intense feelings (experiences), self-realization and bonds with their social links. The attendants clearly lack all of those aforementioned aspects and live a largely functional existence.
I don't agree. For instance, we can directly compare Morgana and the rulers of power. Morgana had to strengthen his persona through battle and experience with the crew. He also only has one persona that is directly tied to his soul. That's clearly different than the Attendants who have power without experience and house persona in a compendium (a book separate from themselves) as opposed to their soul.
The entire point that was originally made by Milly was that Non-Human persona User's and Human persona user's alike have certain cases where they are forced to self heal (I think). While the Velvet Attendents may not have these experiences directly bonded to them, the Persona's they use would hold the same general Physiology a Persona holds while they are using them. When using these Persona's, their resistances change, meaning that even though they are using the Compendium as a conduit through which to summon Persona's of another, the general rules of a Persona and how they affect the user still apply.
