Ren Amamiya vs Nahobino

[Ikelaggan]

Since it's a 4v1 Last Stand is gonna greatly decrease accuracy of incoming attacks

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Since it's a 4v1 Last Stand is gonna greatly decrease accuracy of incoming attacks

Last Stand only applies when Ren's being ambushed, which wouldn't be the case as per SBA.

 

[Ikelaggan]

Last Stand only applies when Ren's being ambushed, which wouldn't be the case as per SBA.

Then Ali Dance would cut accuracy of incoming attacks by half.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Then Ali Dance would cut accuracy of incoming attacks by half.

You mean the skill that can only be acquired, at the absolute earliest, from a late-game Persona?

 

[Ikelaggan]

You mean the skill that can only be acquired, at the absolute earliest, from a late-game Persona?

No, I'm talking about the one you get from Fish God's Badge from fishing in mid game

 

[Lukewoesal007]

No, I'm talking about the one you get from Fish God's Badge from fishing in mid game

Ren's profile lists the Fish God's Badge as Late-game optional equipment.

 

[Ikelaggan]

Nahobino's Demons could spam status-inflicting spells.

How would it deal against Fortify Spirit

 

[Lukewoesal007]

How would it deal against Fortify Spirit

They can always go for Omagatoki: Hit in order to mitigate the resistance. Even with Fortify Spirit, Joker isn't entirely immune to ailments --he just has an increased resistance to them.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Mind you, the longer they fight, the more their Magatsuhi fills, and they can use critical hits with 100% certainty.

I don’t see why Nahobino doesn’t just overpower Joker with numbers alone.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Changing my vote to Nahobino by virtue of being able to counter most of Ren's skillset and having three summonable Demons to coordinate with.

 

[Ikelaggan]

Mind you, the longer they fight, the more their Magatsuhi fills, and they can use critical hits with 100% certainty.

I don’t see why Nahobino doesn’t just overpower Joker with numbers alone.

Samurai Spirit increases evasion to critical hits and magical attacks, not to mention Flow can make his next attack stronger as well.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Samurai Spirit increases evasion to critical hits and magical attacks, not to mention Flow can make his next attack stronger as well.

Cool, they can all counter with buffs/debuffs, and utilize Charge/Concentrate.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Oh, right, Nahobino get's to summon God's to help him Dogpile... Then I hate to say it, but Ren's L.

 

[SonicBayo1999]

Nahobino FRA. Especially with the numbers advantage.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Joker has experience dealing with a vast number differential via his scramble feats (a game in which his power is reset, making the feats applicable to OG Ren) and actively adopts the powers of his persona. One other major factor that, while also ignoring his fate hax, makes this matchup hard is that of Joker's demon negotiation skills. Unlike in SMT, Joker is actively utilizing his influence to override the mindwipe attached to shadows in palaces. If Nahobino doesn't have similar skill he could lose his demons and then just get stomped.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Joker has experience dealing with a vast number differential via his scramble feats (a game in which his power is reset, making the feats applicable to OG Ren) and actively adopts the powers of his persona.

A bunch of people comparable, not superior to him. This key has Joker scale relative to Thor, whilst Nahobino has a far more impressive resume of Low 1-C combatants, one of them being Odin, the leader of the Aesir. Coupled with a massively amped Ishtar, Surt, Amon, etc, he can summon multiple demons above Thor’s paygrade. Thus, doubly negating Joker’s ability to influence to them to his side, as weaker Demons and Personas will not listen to an inferior master.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

A bunch of people comparable, not superior to him. This key has Joker scale relative to Thor, whilst Nahobino has a far more impressive resume of Low 1-C combatants, one of them being Odin, the leader of the Aesir. Coupled with a massively amped Ishtar, Surt, Amon, etc, he can summon multiple demons above Thor’s paygrade. Thus, doubly negating Joker’s ability to influence to them to his side, as weaker Demons and Personas will not listen to an inferior master.

Yes my point was that numbers as a factor itself is not something Joker hasn't experienced before. Joker scales > Thor as Thor is just the baseline for the scaling, so while Naho does have the stronger allies here, it's not some insurmountable leap. All this to say I am making the case that Joker doesn't just get bullied from the jump (I recognize Nahobino has the advantage) and also has RE that surpassed far further gaps in power than Say the difference between Thor and Odin.

That works in regards to the person and has to do with levels. I'm assuming we would equalize levels here given that trying to cross compare game levels would be super faulty. In such a case, Joker's demon negotiation is far superior than Nahobino's given that, once again, him capturing and sealing persona is a function of stopping mass CU mindwipe affecting the demon in palaces. This being on top of Trickster influence and the numerous buffs that Joker can get to his conversation skill at this point via his social links.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Joker scales > Thor as Thor is just the baseline for the scaling, so while Naho does have the stronger allies here, it's not some insurmountable leap.

It really is, actually. Odin is the leader of the Aesir, Surtr is capable of burning Yggdrasil, Ishtar stands massively above Surt, etc.

That works in regards to the person and has to do with levels. I'm assuming we would equalize levels here given that trying to cross compare game levels would be super faulty. In such a case, Joker's demon negotiation is far superior than Nahobino's given that, once again, him capturing and sealing persona is a function of stopping mass CU mindwipe affecting the demon in palaces. This being on top of Trickster influence and the numerous buffs that Joker can get to his conversation skill at this point via his social links.

This literally would not matter in any context. Even in-game, stronger Demons will not come to Joker’s side and look to leave if he isn’t a substantial level, which we’ve long since accepted as canon. If Joker even gets the chance to negotiate against 3 beings that outscale him without dying, it just wouldn’t aid him because they wouldn’t listen to him.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

It really is, actually. Odin is the leader of the Aesir, Surtr is capable of turning Yggdrasil, Ishtar stands massively above Surt, etc.

Yes, and the difference between Thor and Odin is not insurmountable, especially given Reactive Evolution.

This literally would not matter in any context. Even in-game, stronger Demons will not come to Joker’s side and look to leave if he isn’t a substantial level, which we’ve long since accepted as canon. If Joker even gets the chance to negotiate against 3 beings that outscale him without dying, it just wouldn’t aid him because they wouldn’t listen to him.

What wouldn't matter?

Yes, we're talking about Joker's level, not the levels of the demons he has. You are assuming that Nahobino is starting at a higher level here when that isn't how this works. I can run through the game of persona utilizing much weaker persona than Joker's level would indicate and beat stronger demons. So the most important factor here is going to be Joker's skills. As mentioned, his social influencing + Fate hax + social links would very much make it possible for him to snag some of Naho's demons. Remember, maxing out Yoshida's link also does allow Joker to negotiate with higher-level shadows, which is certainly possible by the end of Sae's palace.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Yes, and the difference between Thor and Odin is not insurmountable, especially given Reactive Evolution.

The issue is that he’s not going to be able to utilize it against 4 opponents that massively upscale Thor, all at once. You acknowledge Odin, but not the others.

You are assuming that Nahobino is starting at a higher level here when that isn't how this works.

No, I’m not. I’m asserting Nahobino has a higher AP, which he objectively does. If you have a lower AP, a demon will not follow you.

So the most important factor here is going to be Joker's skills. As mentioned, his social influencing + Fate hax + social links would very much make it possible for him to snag some of Naho's demons. Remember, maxing out Yoshida's link also does allow Joker to negotiate with higher-level shadows, which is certainly possible by the end of Sae's palace.

Fatehax is pointless here, given Nahobino resists it. That’s fine with Yoshida’s SL, that’s again, he even has the time to do so without being killed.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

The issue is that he’s not going to be able to utilize it against 4 opponents that massively upscale Thor, all at once. You acknowledge Odin, but not the others.

Joker himself upscales from Thor as to many enemies. Joker fights prior to upgrading to 1-A are also stronger than him. The gap between thor and Odin in SMT 5 is 6 levels, and the gap between Moloch and Thor in P5 is 7 levels. You keep attacking Thor's position as if it's exactly where Joker himself is at when it's not.

No, I’m not. I’m asserting Nahobino has a higher AP, which he objectively does. If you have a lower AP, a demon will not follow you.

This is a pretty reductive argument. It's not just AP. Many of the Demons that Joker captures would massively outscale him in pure damage output. What matters is level and respect. The demon has to either fear you (in the case they submit through fear) or respect you (in which case they become your ally) and this requires a certain level of overall skill. But no, it isn't purely "I will follow the guy who punches harder!". This is especially relevant to Joker's situation as, once again, Joker has to actively dispel the 1-A mindwipe affecting the demons from the CU. Nahobino's relationships are completely different and not of scale. Mind you, Joker can do this while being individually weaker than palace owners, only having to be of level or higher with the demons.

Fatehax is pointless here, given Nahobino resists it. That’s fine with Yoshida’s SL, that’s again, he even has the time to do so without being killed.

Not really. Source for Nahobino at this level being on par with Ren's trickster?

I don't think Joker will struggle to adapt based on the criteria I already laid out:

Joker is already used to fighting large amounts of enemies
Joker can summon his persona to defend him and doesn't have to worry about it being separated from him.
Joker has reactive evolution and high godly regen. Adapting to these threats is not something impossible in the slightest, given he and his crew all rise to 1-A by the next palace and in the events of PQ2.
Joker literally specializes in turning demons mid fight.

Joker also has the ability to analyze his opponents with third and eye and utilize his much larger range of persona to account for weakness. Every demon that Ren can negotiate out of alliance with Nahobino is not just a +1 for him, but also a -1 for Nahobino. So it really comes down to if he will be killed prior to being able to do so for me.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Joker himself upscales from Thor as to many enemies. Joker fights prior to upgrading to 1-A are also stronger than him. The gap between thor and Odin in SMT 5 is 6 levels, and the gap between Moloch and Thor in P5 is 7 levels. You keep attacking Thor's position as if it's exactly where Joker himself is at when it's not.

You continue to bring up level scaling when I’m talking about AP. Obviously, level scaling isn’t always definitive, that’s why I’m specifically AP, and feats, not levels. And what enemies does he upscale from? I already conceded he’s > Thor, who else? Because Nahobino at his lowest does that, and more.

It's not just AP. Many of the Demons that Joker captures would massively outscale him in pure damage output. What matters is level and respect. The demon has to either fear you (in the case they submit through fear) or respect you (in which case they become your ally) and this requires a certain level of overall skill. But no, it isn't purely "I will follow the guy who punches harder!"

It actually is, really. Every other SMT game follows this logic, demons do not follow inferior masters, lest they actually want to (see Cerberus in SMTI).

Not really. Source for Nahobino at this level being on par with Ren's trickster?

I don't think Joker will struggle to adapt based on the criteria I already laid out:

The fact that Trickster isn’t 1-A in this key? None of those advantages aid him, really.

Large amounts of enemies comparable to Joker, again, not far superior to the strongest person he scales to.
Sure, he can summon his Persona. It’ll be a 2v4, and as to which they can double team both parties and constantly keep them on a defensive back foot.
Nahobino has RE too, and debatably even better than Ren’s, considering SMT V lasts all of two days, and P5 is a multi-month episodic journey. Ren doesn’t have HGR in this key, either, it’s Low 1-C.

Joker also has the ability to analyze his opponents with third and eye and utilize his much larger range of persona to account for weakness. Every demon that Ren can negotiate out of alliance with Nahobino is not just a +1 for him, but also a -1 for Nahobino. So it really comes down to if he will be killed prior to being able to do so for me.

I don’t see a single reason why he would be able to. Again, every single one of his Demons are massively superior to the one Ren scales above. Having to fight two people at once that outscale him will kill him before he can adapt. That’s my stance.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

You continue to bring up level scaling when I’m talking about AP.

Because AP is not the sole factor you are claiming it to be.

Obviously, level scaling isn’t always definitive, that’s why I’m specifically AP, and feats, not levels.

Yes, which you can't do. Level in game cannot simply be reduced to those two things and are blatantly not the factors that distinguish who Joker can and cannot capture. Joker's AP with his weapons and non persona items are vastly outscaled by the attacks of strong demons he can capture. Joker can also do thisusing a person with much weaker stats then the one he is wishing to capture.

This blatantly disproves your point numerically. Joker himself does not need to have superior AP to the demons he seeks to capture, and in fact, many time you specifically capture demons because they can offer you enhanced AP.

And what enemies does he upscale from? I already conceded he’s > Thor, who else? Because Nahobino at his lowest does that, and more.

Notably Sae herself, and Moloch (who is a higher level than Parvati).

It actually is, really. Every other SMT game follows this logic, demons do not follow inferior masters, lest they actually want to (see Cerberus in SMTI).

This isn't an argument against my points. You are just making a claim. "Inferior" is in regards to level, which we already discussed not being directly correlated with AP.

The fact that Trickster isn’t 1-A in this key? None of those advantages aid him, really.

The trickster doesn't grow in strength? It's a smurf hax that he was gifted. Yes they do, Joker actively causes things to work in ways perceived as good to him and this is passive. This is the whole point of the psychic's social link as Joker tacitly being involved in the cases of the people she worked with directly changed their fate to be more favorable. Joker once again also being immune to Maruki's worldwide and Yald's own fate manip.

Large amounts of enemies comparable to Joker, again, not far superior to the strongest person he scales to.

Yes and there is a balance. Fighting 50 dudes on your level has it's own challenges compared to fighting 5 dudes superior to you. The number gaps is much larger (joker's experience vs numbers) so the gap in between Joker and the foes he is facing is important, and I don't think it's that big, and is mitigated by Joker's reactive evolution.

Sure, he can summon his Persona. It’ll be a 2v4, and as to which they can double team both parties and constantly keep them on a defensive back foot.

Which would give Joker time to pick off Nahobino's allies since he is splitting up. If joker even gets one ally, then that turns into 3 v 3.

Nahobino has RE too, and debatably even better than Ren’s, considering SMT V lasts all of two days, and P5 is a multi-month episodic journey. Ren doesn’t have HGR in this key, either, it’s Low 1-C.

What is hgr?

I don’t see a single reason why he would be able to. Again, every single one of his Demons are massively superior to the one Ren scales above. Having to fight two people at once that outscale him will kill him before he can adapt. That’s my stance.

Well I don't necessarily see evidence for that.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

I don't have much to add without repeating the sentiments of Milly, but there is one point I disagree with that hasn't been fully addressed yet:

Joker has experience dealing with a vast number differential via his scramble feats (a game in which his power is reset, making the feats applicable to OG Ren)

How can you apply the experience feats of a future version of a character to their past self? I understand that they're comparable in terms of physical prowess, if you're trying to argue that he simply has the fortitude to contend with multiple comparable opponents. But experience and combat skill isn't tied to raw power, so I don't follow the line of logic of evaluating Mid-game P5 Joker with feats he wouldn't have performed at that point in time.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Because AP is not the sole factor you are claiming it to be.

I disagree.

Yes, which you can't do. Level in game cannot simply be reduced to those two things and are blatantly not the factors that distinguish who Joker can and cannot capture.

I can, actually, considering Joker can only convince stronger demons after getting Yoshida’s SL. Without it, just like every other SMT game, you cannot recruit more powerful demons.

Notably Sae herself, and Moloch (who is a higher level than Parvati).

If we’re going with level scaling, Parvati is in her level thirties. Making Loki, Fionn, Surt, Odin, and dozens of others 1-A, as Parvati is 1-A. It doesn’t take a genius to see what the issue is here, and that is level scaling is not always accurate. Even if we steelman this, Joker upscales 1 person who beats Parvati. Nahobino upscales upwards of 20. Complete stomp, either way.

The trickster doesn't grow in strength? It's a smurf hax that he was gifted. Yes they do, Joker actively causes things to work in ways perceived as good to him and this is passive. This is the whole point of the psychic's social link as Joker tacitly being involved in the cases of the people she worked with directly changed their fate to be more favorable. Joker once again also being immune to Maruki's worldwide and Yald's own fate manip.

Not exactly this insta-win, considering he had been compromised on multiple occasions beforehand. He & Morgana were overpowered by Kamoshida’s grunts till Ryuji evolved, which has nothing to do with fatehax.

Yes and there is a balance. Fighting 50 dudes on your level has it's own challenges compared to fighting 5 dudes superior to you. The number gaps is much larger (joker's experience vs numbers) so the gap in between Joker and the foes he is facing is important, and I don't think it's that big, and is mitigated by Joker's reactive evolution.

No, not just stronger, massively stronger. All of these people scale far above Thor, and Nahobino has waxed all of them, and now he can summon them against a guy who scales to the weaker Norse Gods.

Which would give Joker time to pick off Nahobino's allies since he is splitting up. If joker even gets one ally, then that turns into 3 v 3.

If he doesn’t die throughout trying, which is unlikely. And even if he did, he could simply summon another > Thor demon.

What is hgr?

High-Godly Regen.

Well I don't necessarily see evidence for that.

I don’t think you understand how small he is compared to his Demons. Again, he scales above Thor, we can even throw Sae in there. Ren > Sae > Thor.

Yggdrasil >= Surtr > Norns > Odin > Thor > Loki = Heimdall.

Yggdrasil is the strongest in Norse myth, and can survive Ragnarok.
Surtr is capable of burning Yggdrasil in Ragnarok, and all 9 realms.
The Norns control the fates of all Gods.
Odin possesses the most powerful magic of all Aesir.

Mind you, this same Surtr gets slapped by Nahobino, and then he immediately proceeds to fight someone who “far outclasses” Surt, that being Ishtar.

Nahobino > Prime Ishtar >>> Yggdrasil >= Surtr > Norns > Odin > Thor > Loki = Heimdall.

So right there, that’s Surt & Ishtar, as he’s stronger than them, he can summon them. Every single thing Nahobino summons is massively more powerful than Ren, nevertheless Nahobino himself.

With that, I say Nahobino just beats Ren to death.

 

[SonicBayo1999]

Persona 5 fans are wild. And no, I'm not a fan like everyone else. I'm built different lol

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Reading this argument, I do see a minimalistic chance of Joker convincing 1 Demon to change sides, as it's been proven that his Persuasion specifically can work on Higher Level Foes/Stronger Foes supposedly. Joker could, hypothetically, use his rather insane speech skills to convince maybe one guy onto his side, especially seeing as Speed is equal, so no one should be speed blitzing. However, even if he did so, he himself would still be at a power disadvantage unless a lengthier scaling chain was produced, and he can't guarantee on 1 single demon pulling the win for them. What's worse, pretty sure Nahobino could summon another dude to take their place anyways, correct me if I'm wrong, and I don't think we can just say that Joker manages to convince Nahobino's literal entire roster of Demon's to come over to his side (As comical a site that would be).
Still think Joker get's badly screwed here by way of Nahobino spamming his demons out then they gang up on Joker. Really a mismatch tbh.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I disagree.

Ok, but you are wrong and I just explained why. And quite frankly, as we're about to see, Levels being directly and only correlated to AP completely destroys your argument.

I can, actually, considering Joker can only convince stronger demons after getting Yoshida’s SL. Without it, just like every other SMT game, you cannot recruit more powerful demons.

Ok, so then you need to prove Joker wouldn't be at a high enough level here for this to work and that the Sun Arcana gift would be inapplicable.

If we’re going with level scaling, Parvati is in her level thirties. Making Loki, Fionn, Surt, Odin, and dozens of others 1-A, as Parvati is 1-A. It doesn’t take a genius to see what the issue is here, and that is level scaling is not always accurate. Even if we steelman this, Joker upscales 1 person who beats Parvati. Nahobino upscales upwards of 20. Complete stomp, either way.

Level scaling can be valid within the game itself. By your logic, if Nahobino is only level 65 and goes up against a level 66 demon, the game is telling you the demon is stronger (has more AP via your own logic). So why would this logic not be applicable in game?

You are also mixing level and lore here so I don't know why you're acting like I am the only one doing such.

Not exactly this insta-win, considering he had been compromised on multiple occasions beforehand. He & Morgana were overpowered by Kamoshida’s grunts till Ryuji evolved, which has nothing to do with fatehax.

And overcome all of them. You do realize Yaldabaoth was actively attempting to fate hax throughout the whole plot? Ryuji awakening his persona "just in time" could also be considered an extension of this. I also never said it was an insta win, I claimed it would be a factor in Joker surviving, and would also be of benefit to him negotiating Naho's demons.

No, not just stronger, massively stronger. All of these people scale far above Thor, and Nahobino has waxed all of them, and now he can summon them against a guy who scales to the weaker Norse Gods.

I have an issue with this line of thinking when in the same game, Surt is listed as a level 63 demon with a much weaker level 49 incarnation earlier in the game. Meanwhile, Thor is level 66. So not only does the game consider him a more formidable foe, but by your own logic, he has "more AP" than Surtr given that there is a 3-level gap in power between when you can negotiate either of them.

High-Godly Regen.

This isn't something they awakened, it's an inherent persona power.

I don’t think you understand how small he is compared to his Demons. Again, he scales above Thor, we can even throw Sae in there. Ren > Sae > Thor.

Yggdrasil >= Surtr > Norns > Odin > Thor > Loki = Heimdall.

See, once again, I have a problem with this. You're trying to use this scaling chain which is blatantly utilizing lore in the face of contradictory evidence.

To begin, within the lore, Surt is strong because of his weapon and the powers associated with it. He isn't just naturally >>> all of the gods, especially when he is literally < Thor in physical strength. This is why Surtr is typically in magic related arcana/good at learning magic spells. So let's not act like Surtr is some transcendent being who is casually > Yggradisl. He literally only becomes that strong when the prophecy of ragnarok initiates and he can use his weapon as such.

Also, once again, Thor is literally stronger than Surt via level in SMT 5, which by your logic 100% means he has more AP and would exist as a demon that Joker would be capable of swaying to his side.

Yggdrasil is the strongest in Norse myth, and can survive Ragnarok.
Surtr is capable of burning Yggdrasil in Ragnarok, and all 9 realms.
The Norns control the fates of all Gods.
Odin possesses the most powerful magic of all Aesir.

Yeah, this is a gross simplification of things that lie extremely out of contest while also blatantly ignoring Thor's own renowned as second strongest only to Odin, being the greatest warrior, and being the physically strongest god.

Mind you, this same Surtr gets slapped by Nahobino, and then he immediately proceeds to fight someone who “far outclasses” Surt, that being Ishtar.

The whole foundation of your argument is shaky given what I stated above, in addition, you keep trying to have your cake and eat it too.

You say Joker can't take in these demons to his side because "they are stronger" and utilize level lore to try and prove your point.

When I point out level discrepancies, you appeal to lore (which is misconstrued) in its place, despite the logic from the above argument blatantly going in your face.

Ishtar is a level 62 as summonable Ally and appears as a "boss" at level 49. I just went over the fact that Surt is a boss at a much lower level and also comes in at a lower level than Thor by 3 levels.

So clearly, in SMT 5, the scaling chain you just tried to set up is blatantly not applicable.

Nahobino > Prime Ishtar >>> Yggdrasil >= Surtr > Norns > Odin > Thor > Loki = Heimdall.

This scaling is not correct. I already went over the Yggdrasil and Surt stuff. Norn's being stronger is a fate thing and has no other combat applicability.

So right there, that’s Surt & Ishtar, as he’s stronger than them, he can summon them. Every single thing Nahobino summons is massively more powerful than Ren, nevertheless Nahobino himself.

Not at all as just discussed.

With that, I say Nahobino just beats Ren to death.

That's fine, I think Ren ha solid chances of taking Naho's summons and winning. You haven't really provided solid evidence against this case.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I don't have much to add without repeating the sentiments of Milly, but there is one point I disagree with that hasn't been fully addressed yet:

How can you apply the experience feats of a future version of a character to their past self? I understand that they're comparable in terms of physical prowess, if you're trying to argue that he simply has the fortitude to contend with multiple comparable opponents. But experience and combat skill isn't tied to raw power, so I don't follow the line of logic of evaluating Mid-game P5 Joker with feats he wouldn't have performed at that point in time.

I'm not sure I understand your contention. My argument was that Joker has experience fighting multiple foes at once. Thus the factor of fighting multiple people at once will have its impact mitigated since Joker has experience here. I never said anything about Raw stats or his experience alone nullifying that.

As for the timeline stuff, Scramblers is hinted at as being the clearest depiction of battle we have for the thieves, meaning they have fought as such before (just obviously outside the confines of the console games to display given it's turned-based). As far as ascribing past joker feats from his future self, I would have to ask you to consider the above in addition to the fact that Joker was power reset at the start of strikers and "rusty". Meaning pretty much all of his feats up unto the first low 1-c enemies should be readily applicable to him.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Ok, but you are wrong and I just explained why. And quite frankly, as we're about to see, Levels being directly and only correlated to AP completely destroys your argument.

No, you’re wrong, actually. Levels are inaccurate scaling, we’ve been accepted this. Unless you prefer we change all our scaling based on levels, everything and their mother is between 1-A and Low 2-C with no rhyme or consistency. Lore over levels, and I don’t think any supporters disagree but you.

Ok, so then you need to prove Joker wouldn't be at a high enough level here for this to work and that the Sun Arcana gift would be inapplicable.

I never said it wouldn’t work here.

Level scaling can be valid within the game itself. By your logic, if Nahobino is only level 65 and goes up against a level 66 demon, the game is telling you the demon is stronger (has more AP via your own logic). So why would this logic not be applicable in game?

I don’t disagree with this. What I’m saying is level isn’t an accurate measurement of scaling. Parvati is a lower level than Black Frost. Parvati is 1-A. Black Frost is not. That alone demolishes your line of logic.

I have an issue with this line of thinking when in the same game, Surt is listed as a level 63 demon with a much weaker level 49 incarnation earlier in the game. Meanwhile, Thor is level 66. So not only does the game consider him a more formidable foe, but by your own logic, he has "more AP" than Surtr given that there is a 3-level gap in power between when you can negotiate either of them.

Refer to my earlier passage.

To begin, within the lore, Surt is strong because of his weapon and the powers associated with it. He isn't just naturally >>> all of the gods, especially when he is literally < Thor in physical strength. This is why Surtr is typically in magic related arcana/good at learning magic spells. So let's not act like Surtr is some transcendent being who is casually > Yggradisl. He literally only becomes that strong when the prophecy of ragnarok initiates and he can use his weapon as such.

You have no evidence for any of this, so I don’t see why I should believe you. I never said he was > Yggdrasil, also, it’s literally in the chain, so you’re just strawmanning me. Not to mention, his entries literally disagree with you:

北欧神話における炎の巨人族ムスッペルの長。世界の創造からその終末まで, 南方で炎をあげる灼熱の世界ムスペッルヘイム(業火の民の国)の入り口に立つ男で, 意味は“黒”。全身から炎をあげ, 赤黒く燃えていた。エッダ詩「スヴィプダグいわく」によると、スルトの妻シンマラが、光輝く剣レーヴァテイン(害なす魔の杖)を、レーギャルンという箱に保管していた。この世の終末ラグナロクが訪れると、スルトはこの剣を握って、配下のムスッペルを率い、死者の爪からできた船ナグルファルで海の彼方から現れる。他の巨人族と共同して神々と戦い、豊穣神フレイを殺す。戦場がで満ちると火を放ち、世界樹イグドラジルもろとも世界を炎で覆いつくす。

The chief of the fire-giant tribe of Muspell in Norse mythology. From the creation of the world to its end, he stands at the entrance to the burning world of Muspelheim (the land of the people of fire), which burns in the south. His name means "black," and his whole body was ablaze with flames, burning red and black. According to the Edda poem "Fjölsvinnsmál," Surt's wife, Sinmara , kept the shining sword Lævatein (the sword of harming demons) inside a box called Regaln. When the end of the world, Ragnarok, finally comes, Surt will this sword and leed his men, the Muspell, to appear from beyond the sea in the ship Naglfar, which was made from the claws of the dead. Together with the other giant races, they fight the gods and kill the fertility god Frey. When the battlefield fills up, he sets fire to it, covering the whole world in flames, including the world tree Yggdrasil.

Explicitly stated capable of burning Yggdrasil, which implies relativity.

Yeah, this is a gross simplification of things that lie extremely out of contest while also blatantly ignoring Thor's own renowned as second strongest only to Odin, being the greatest warrior, and being the physically strongest god.

It’s an oversimplification of things that don’t exist, because I explicitly said “the most powerful magic”. Reread what I said again.

This scaling is not correct. I already went over the Yggdrasil and Surt stuff. Norn's being stronger is a fate thing and has no other combat applicability.

It is, actually, since it’s fate itself. Your scaling is the one that’s mistreating established lore.

Not at all as just discussed.

It is. Scans say it so, objectively.

I think Ren ha solid chances of taking Naho's summons and winning.

I don’t think you realize that even if this was the case, he can summon more > Thor threats. He’s already killed all of these people, so it’s not like fighting them again is an issue.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

This isn't something they awakened, it's an inherent persona power.

Also, no.

If this was the case:

• Junpei wouldn’t have died
• Shinjiro wouldn’t have died
• Chidori wouldn’t have died
• Jin wouldn’t have died

Margaret, in Velvet Blue explicitly requires a Dia spell to heal her wounds. That only works if they’ve been erased from existence, and again, not in this key.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

No, you’re wrong, actually. Levels are inaccurate scaling, we’ve been accepted this. Unless you prefer we change all our scaling based on levels, everything and their mother is between 1-A and Low 2-C with no rhyme or consistency. Lore over levels, and I don’t think any supporters disagree but you.

We are talking about in game levels which you literally just tried to utilize as a scale of power for who Joker can and cannot get to his side.

And you aren't even responding to my point, which originally was, that levels don't only take into account AP. You have yet to respond to my evidence against that.

I don’t disagree with this. What I’m saying is level isn’t an accurate measurement of scaling. Parvati is a lower level than Black Frost. Parvati is 1-A. Black Frost is not. That alone demolishes your line of logic.

I actually already addressed my own concerns with Parvati stuff, and no, once again, we aren't going to ignore the in game stuff.

I literally used your own logic to disprove this notion, you cannot have your cake (using levels to discuss who Ren can and can not get) and eat it too (say that levels have no basis in scaling or terms of power).

Refer to my earlier passage.

I mean you could just directly address the point.

You have no evidence for any of this, so I don’t see why I should believe you.

I mean I do, it's literally Surt's lore. Just go read it.

I never said he was > Yggdrasil, also, it’s literally in the chain, so you’re just strawmanning me. Not to mention, his entries literally disagree with you:

Exactly, you are proving my point. The entry you just listed talks about his feat in the context of it happening in Ragnarok (hence why they mention him fighting Frey, who he only beats because the latter is weaponless). Mulspheim is the fiery world of creation that is needed for destruction/recreation. Surt only scales to this level of power during Ragnarok.

You are trying to abuse this to say that he simply exists as a god who can casually output that power which is not the case. It's like trying to say Joe Biden is City level because he has access to a tool that can destroy a city in very specific circumstances. Especially when the same game you are trying to cite this as evidence disagrees with you.

Explicitly stated capable of burning Yggdrasil, which implies relativity.

No it doesn't. First off, Surt only beat the God Frey (who is weaker than Thor as a soldier) because Frey gave up his sword and had to fight weaponless. Surt also only accomplishes this after thor and the world serpent kill eachother and Odin and Fenrir kill each other.

Surt eventually utilizes his power and sword to burn all of the world tree, but this happens via his sword during ragnarok, but also ends up killing Surt himself.

So apparently Thor > Freyja >= Surt > Thor?

It’s an oversimplification of things that don’t exist, because I explicitly said “the most powerful magic”. Reread what I said again.

So he has one technique that is only used during a pre-destined fight, that was useless to him during actual combat, and is a suicide move for all involved.

Not sure how that places him in the chain you tried to construct representing Surt as definitevly >> Odin and Thor. Once again, this is blatantly untrue via myth, and blatantly untrue in SMT 5 where they outlevel him.

And if we only want tot alk about levels in comparison to a person's ability to contract them, Joker can still get everyone you listed bar Odin.

It is, actually, since it’s fate itself. Your scaling is the one that’s mistreating established lore.

This isn't an argument. The Norn don't weaponize fate, they administer it. Which is exactly what I said to you.

It is. Scans say it so, objectively.

It's not, you just posted a scan, ignored my whole argument, and made a claim based on your personal beliefs. I don't care about your personal beliefs.

You once again also tacitly addmited you were wrong with your own arguments.

You are the one who claimed level directly correlates to AP and that Joker being unable to get Ishtar and Surt would be due to level difference. That clearly isn't the case since thor is well above both of them. This is literally what happens in the game.

I don’t think you realize that even if this was the case, he can summon more > Thor threats. He’s already killed all of these people, so it’s not like fighting them again is an issue.

Like who? You listed Odin as one source that is stronger than Thor. Ishtar and Surt are not by your own logic and I already explained how you are massacring lore to establish an invalid scaling chain.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Also, no.

If this was the case:

• Junpei wouldn’t have died
• Shinjiro wouldn’t have died
• Chidori wouldn’t have died
• Jin wouldn’t have died

Margaret, in Velvet Blue explicitly requires a Dia spell to heal her wounds. That only works if they’ve been erased from existence, and again, not in this key.

I never said it was applicable outside of erasing existence.

The key has nothing to do with the power, in the same way we don't say Tatsuya only gets his madness manipulation when meeting Igor before Kadath. It's an inherent ability.

Margaret is not a human so not sure why you're bringing her up.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

We are talking about in game levels which you literally just tried to utilize as a scale of power for who Joker can and cannot get to his side.

And you aren't even responding to my point, which originally was, that levels don't only take into account AP. You have yet to respond to my evidence against that.

I said level scaling is invalid, so we use feats and AP. Same goes for negotiations, you cannot negotiate with a stronger demon. Joker has a skill that allows him to. If he didn’t, and he would follow the same rules. Igor and Elizabeth outright confirm this.

I actually already addressed my own concerns with Parvati stuff, and no, once again, we aren't going to ignore the in game stuff.

I literally used your own logic to disprove this notion, you cannot have your cake (using levels to discuss who Ren can and can not get) and eat it too (say that levels have no basis in scaling or terms of power).

No, you’ve been misinterpreting my logic and saying you’ve it’s disproven, when it hasn’t. Levels aren’t indicative of feats & lore, that’s why you get Demons, again, such as Parvati (a rival to Shiva), being inferior to Demons like Loki (a Low 1-C character that bullies Devas, the near baseline Low 1-Cs).

I mean you could just directly address the point.

It’s wrong.

Exactly, you are proving my point. The entry you just listed talks about his feat in the context of it happening in Ragnarok (hence why they mention him fighting Frey, who he only beats because the latter is weaponless). Mulspheim is the fiery world of creation that is needed for destruction/recreation. Surt only scales to this level of power during Ragnarok.

You are trying to abuse this to say that he simply exists as a god who can casually output that power which is not the case. It's like trying to say Joe Biden is City level because he has access to a tool that can destroy a city in very specific circumstances. Especially when the same game you are trying to cite this as evidence disagrees with you.

Literally nothing, in that entire passage, asserts he’s stronger during Ragnarok. He just uses the sword, that he always has, that’s literally a skill in SMT V that he can use against Nahobino, and lights up the tree. You’re just extrapolating things that do not exist within the compendium to substantiate your claims.

So he has one technique that is only used during a pre-destined fight, that was useless to him during actual combat, and is a suicide move for all involved.

Not sure how that places him in the chain you tried to construct representing Surt as definitevly >> Odin and Thor. Once again, this is blatantly untrue via myth, and blatantly untrue in SMT 5 where they outlevel him.

And if we only want tot alk about levels in comparison to a person's ability to contract them, Joker can still get everyone you listed bar Odin.

Refer to earlier point.

This isn't an argument. The Norn don't weaponize fate, they administer it. Which is exactly what I said to you.

They kind of do. Not to mention the Norns fought (though lost) to Yggdrasil in SJ, and the Yggdrasil found them significant enough to steal their powers.

It's not, you just posted a scan, ignored my whole argument, and made a claim based on your personal beliefs. I don't care about your personal beliefs.

You once again also tacitly addmited you were wrong with your own arguments.

You are the one who claimed level directly correlates to AP and that Joker being unable to get Ishtar and Surt would be due to level difference. That clearly isn't the case since thor is well above both of them. This is literally what happens in the game.

Again, no. You just omit lore that fails to fit your worldview, ignore already accepted revisions, and continue to lie about obvious scaling in regards to levels that literally no one agrees with, not even the profiles you reference. I didn’t assert any of what you’re saying, frankly, you’re just twisting my words. We’ve always put lore over levels. What isn’t contrary is me saying “you need to be a high enough level to recruit demons/personas”, because that’s embedded in strength & lore, and we’ve seen examples of this. But we know levels aren’t definitively the way to scale demons.

I never said it was applicable outside of erasing existence.

So it’s irrelevant.

Margaret is not a human so not sure why you're bringing her up.

It applies to all Persona-users. Koromaru was erased by Enlil, and he’s pretty clearly not a human, yet returned.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I said level scaling is invalid, so we use feats and AP. Same goes for negotiations, you cannot negotiate with a stronger demon. Joker has a skill that allows him to. If he didn’t, and he would follow the same rules. Igor and Elizabeth outright confirm this.

Except, you can't backtrack now, you literally used levels earlier to dictate this, and levels are the standard used in the game.

You can't use game mechanics only to deny the game indicators for those mechanics.

If Nahobino is level 63 and can negotiate with Surt. Yet can't do so with Thor until he's gotten 3 levels of battle experience, what does that tell you Milly?

Levels aren’t indicative of feats & lore,

I never said levels directly indicate feats or lore, that's a dumb claim and a strawman on your end.

I did say levels, in game, are indicative of battle power relative to one another.

When discussing Joker accessing demons, you said he would not be able to do such because he'd be level blocked. Despite, Thor being someone Joker would be able to capture in SMT 5, and thus anyone rated lower than Thor in the scaling chain.

Gaining insight from levels is not mutually exclusive to taking into account feats and lore. Especially when the topic of discussion (Joker negotiating Nahobino's demons) is directly tied to that subject.

that’s why you get Demons, again, such as Parvati (a rival to Shiva), being inferior to Demons like Loki (a Low 1-C character that bullies Devas, the near baseline Low 1-Cs).

A.) Parvati is not a direct rival to Shiva, her war aspect Kali is. The same Kali is who is coincidentally always a much higher level than Parvati (level 76 and level 35 respectively in SMT 5) and specifically attributed with the battle prowess discussed in her feats that would make her a "rival to Shiva".
B.) Even if you were granted the above, one exception does not invalidate the rule. While levels can be a funky subject to touch on it does not change the fact that they do represent in-game scaling, and aren't just game mechanics as it is something appealed to on a meta-level across several MT games spanning several decades.

It’s wrong.

Not an argument.

Literally nothing, in that entire passage, asserts he’s stronger during Ragnarok.

Vapid claim of nothing.

Why does Surt need to wait until Thor and Odin are dead?

Why does Surt have to start his own army to fight in Ragnarok? Why couldn't he just erase the realms?

Why is he only capable of beating Freyr becaue the latter is swordless?

By your logic and the conclusion you tried to justify with the scaling chain, Surt can casually mop Thor up based on lore. Yet, is tacitly given a barrier by both Thor and Odin and can't even beat another god without a severe handicap. All of which you are waving away because he suicided everything with a one shot ability.

Doesn't check out.

He just uses the sword, that he always has,

The same way he used his sword prior to erasing the tree? The same way which never saw him at any comparable level prior to then?

Source needed.

that’s literally a skill in SMT V that he can use against Nahobino, and lights up the tree. You’re just extrapolating things that do not exist within the compendium to substantiate your claims.

I didn't extrapolate anything. I explained the context of the lore you are using and why it's not applicable to just blankly claim Surt is >>> Thor, especially when the literal game code heavily disagrees with you.

Refer to earlier point.

Refer to earlier refutation.

They kind of do. Not to mention the Norns fought (though lost) to Yggdrasil in SJ, and the Yggdrasil found them significant enough to steal their powers.

They don't. You literally just claimed this and then switched points to a non-sequitur to try and verify your claim.

I don't care if they fought yygradasil, them fighting Ygg isn't proof they weaponize fate actively. They administer it. It's like saying one cop has the power of the whole justice system because they administer justice.

Yes, because fate powers are strong. Their powers being envied does nothing to prove they can actively weaponize their fate manipulation.

Again, no. You just omit lore that fails to fit your worldview

How did I omit lore when I blatantly addressed the lore you spoke of and even expounded on the lroe you failed to grasp?

, ignore already accepted revisions,

I'm not, you're abusing bullshit and then ignoring evidence directly from the games when it doesn't suit your argument (hence your gung hoeness about using level arguments against Joker and then acting as if they don't exist after seeing it proved your own point wrong). You can't even directly address my counter arguments or back up your one-line claims. I've sat here at every junction and backed up my claims and went in depth to discuss why I'm calling you wrong.

and continue to lie about obvious scaling in regards to levels that literally no one agrees with

Except you at the beginning of this thread when you appealed to levels apparently?

, not even the profiles you reference.

Yeah because
A.) Something being on a profile means it can't be argued against with evidence in a thread.
B.) MT isn't under a super revision that is still actively being talked about and having points added and subtracted on the daily.

Miss me with this nonsense appeal.

I didn’t assert any of what you’re saying, frankly, you’re just twisting my words. We’ve always put lore over levels. What isn’t contrary is me saying “you need to be a high enough level to recruit demons/personas”, because that’s embedded in strength & lore, and we’ve seen examples of this. But we know levels aren’t definitively the way to scale demons.

Bullshit. We were directly talking about levels as it relates to power. Thus when specifically talking about Joker's ability to negotiate these demons, appealing to levels is perfectly fine, especially since, once again, we know it isn't game mechanics with it being referenced several times throughout decades in the story itself.

I ask you one more time. If Joker can seal Thor in his mask, and in SMT 5 Thor cannot be negotiated with until you are at a higher level than Surt. How are you claiming that Joker cannot negotiate him here? Without special pleading of course.

So it’s irrelevant.

Nobody here attacks by erasing existence? Did you not just spend the last page talking about how Surt ***** because of his tree erasing fire?

It applies to all Persona-users. Koromaru was erased by Enlil, and he’s pretty clearly not a human, yet returned.

Koromaru naturally awakened his persona via realization. The rulers of power explicitly don't go through this step, inherently exist as nothingness, and have compendiums housing the persona they have as opposed to a soul that merges with an archetype. So no, not comparable here.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Ok, I think I'll step in.

Except, you can't backtrack now, you literally used levels earlier to dictate this, and levels are the standard used in the game.

You can't use game mechanics only to deny the game indicators for those mechanics.

If Nahobino is level 63 and can negotiate with Surt. Yet can't do so with Thor until he's gotten 3 levels of battle experience, what does that tell you Milly?

To be fair, In game Level's are very inconsistent between games. For example, in SMTII, Odin is only level 48. In the same game, Loki is level 49. (Stats taken right from the SMT wiki btw.) This would indicate a clear superiority for Loki, and yet in SMT If, Loki is 61, with Odin being 67, so... Odin is superior. This isn't to completely dismiss Level scaling as a whole, but it proves to be heavily inconsistent when character's can swap who's a higher level than when another dependent on the game, so Lore should take a higher precedence than Level's for certain.

I never said levels directly indicate feats or lore, that's a dumb claim and a strawman on your end.

I did say levels, in game, are indicative of battle power relative to one another.

When discussing Joker accessing demons, you said he would not be able to do such because he'd be level blocked. Despite, Thor being someone Joker would be able to capture in SMT 5, and thus anyone rated lower than Thor in the scaling chain.

Gaining insight from levels is not mutually exclusive to taking into account feats and lore. Especially when the topic of discussion (Joker negotiating Nahobino's demons) is directly tied to that subject.

I don't fully disagree with this assertion, Milly did heavily rely on the point of Joker not being strong enough for certain Demon's, but this is negated either way by the Sun Arcana ability.

A.) Parvati is not a direct rival to Shiva, her war aspect Kali is. The same Kali is who is coincidentally always a much higher level than Parvati (level 76 and level 35 respectively in SMT 5) and specifically attributed with the battle prowess discussed in her feats that would make her a "rival to Shiva".
B.) Even if you were granted the above, one exception does not invalidate the rule. While levels can be a funky subject to touch on it does not change the fact that they do represent in-game scaling, and aren't just game mechanics as it is something appealed to on a meta-level across several MT games spanning several decades.

I'm not big on the scaling of the Demon's in SMT, but if I recall from Mythology correctly, this is about accurate. Parvati is a less capable aspect in general power than Kali from what I recollect, and Kali is often portrayed as higher level than Parvati when they both appear.

Not an argument.

Wait wait, no, he has a point

... I can understand that it can be sometimes annoying to deal with a point of view you may see as wrong/incorrect, or someone who you may see as unreasonable, but it is generally a good idea to respond in full when possible.

Vapid claim of nothing.

Why does Surt need to wait until Thor and Odin are dead?

Why does Surt have to start his own army to fight in Ragnarok? Why couldn't he just erase the realms?

Why is he only capable of beating Freyr becaue the latter is swordless?

By your logic and the conclusion you tried to justify with the scaling chain, Surt can casually mop Thor up based on lore. Yet, is tacitly given a barrier by both Thor and Odin and can't even beat another god without a severe handicap. All of which you are waving away because he suicided everything with a one shot ability.

Doesn't check out.

I believe that people may be mixing some of this up with interpretations of Surtr in fiction (Like in the MCU), as I could not find anything about Surtr being stronger during Ragnarok. It also doesn't seem implied that Surtr can only fight Freyr without his sword just because that's the circumstance here. Though, if evidence were produced stating as such, I may be more inclined to believe as such. Consider also that Surtr would be bound by this destiny as all the Norse are; He is fated to destroy Yggdrassil at x time. No later. No less. It's possible he had to do all that he did because it was fated.

The same way he used his sword prior to erasing the tree? The same way which never saw him at any comparable level prior to then?

Source needed.

Could be holding back. I do admit that his Sword is somewhat of a center point of Ragnarok's closing parts if I recall right, but I don't think there is anything indicating he cannot use the sword at his full power prior to Ragnarok.

Refer to earlier refutation.

Admittedly this got me to chuckle a bit

They don't. You literally just claimed this and then switched points to a non-sequitur to try and verify your claim.

I don't care if they fought yygradasil, them fighting Ygg isn't proof they weaponize fate actively. They administer it. It's like saying one cop has the power of the whole justice system because they administer justice.

Yes, because fate powers are strong. Their powers being envied does nothing to prove they can actively weaponize their fate manipulation.

I... Agree with this, yeah. Just because the Hax of the Norn are applicable to the God's doesn't really mean that anything else they have is on par with the God's level. There is no indication that they can or are willing to use this Fate Hax in some sort of offensive manner, and generally they seem to only be using Fate Hax as a tool according to how fate is deemed to be used. In that same veil, there are those who use Medicine as a tool as they deem it right, but they do not have the full force of those they give said medicine to. Norn's=/=Aesir level's of power with this as the only proof imo.

Except you at the beginning of this thread when you appealed to levels apparently?

Admittedly, Milly went a little back and forth between arguing about the Inferior Master Argument and Arguing against using Level's, when both arguments have a few... Problem's, being used together... Though, it seems they really wanted to make it less about Level's and more about AP.

I ask you one more time. If Joker can seal Thor in his mask, and in SMT 5 Thor cannot be negotiated with until you are at a higher level than Surt. How are you claiming that Joker cannot negotiate him here? Without special pleading of course.

Nobody here attacks by erasing existence? Did you not just spend the last page talking about how Surt ***** because of his tree erasing fire?

Koromaru naturally awakened his persona via realization. The rulers of power explicitly don't go through this step, inherently exist as nothingness, and have compendiums housing the persona they have as opposed to a soul that merges with an archetype. So no, not comparable here.

Fair statement from a solely gameplay standpoint. From a lore standpoint... Refer to earlier when I talk about how funky the level's can be in between games.

I believe that they were mainly referring to Surt's general AP as supposedly scaling to the feat.

There is little to indicate that Velvet Siblings vs Normal Persona User's are really too different on the side of how the Persona works. That being said, there can be something differing in, say, Elizabeth's Physiology that could matter, though that's conjecture.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

That's moreso his RE/AD, but as Milly said, Fatehax isn't an "instant-win" either.

For now, I'll vote for Joker. I think he simply has more versatility than Nahobino, due to his ability to switch between a multitude of Personas in comparison to Nahobino's maximum of eight skills (though this point might be moot if that's simply gameplay mechanics). Regardless, Joker can simply switch to a Persona that nullifies, drains, repels, or at least resist most of Nahobino's skillset.

Piercing skills say hello!

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Piercing skills say hello!

I changed my vote to Nahobino anyway, but he wouldn't have access to many piercing skills (if any at all) in this key.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

To be fair, In game Level's are very inconsistent between games.

That's fair but not really applicable as a refutation of my stance. I'm not comparing levels between games. I'm utilizing the common presence of Thor between games and then utilizing Thor's level in SMT 5 to compare him to other demons being brought up. Particularly as it relates to negotiation which is directly correlated to level in the story and as a game mechanic.

I also think that appealing to "levels" as a specific semantic term is completely missing the point and doesn't do anything to address the hole in the rationale presented. Levels are benchmarks for power for a specific game. Even if we take levels away, some demons will present as overall stronger than demons. We'd have to throw that concept out completely to void levels as a thing, because it is literally the game's presentation of power within the game. Appealing to a label doesn't change that, especially if (as is the case here) "levels" are an actual concept within the story proper.

I believe that people may be mixing some of this up with interpretations of Surtr in fiction (Like in the MCU), as I could not find anything about Surtr being stronger during Ragnarok.

Surt is stronger during Rangorak because he is suiciding existence. I'm arguing that it's not honest to argue this as scaling for his combat ability given that it's not applicable to Surt at all times and while a high end application of his magic, is not something that makes him flat out stronger in terms of combat prowess.

It also doesn't seem implied that Surtr can only fight Freyr without his sword just because that's the circumstance here. Though, if evidence were produced stating as such, I may be more inclined to believe as such.

What do you mean? The entry provided clearly is recounting the events of the actual myth and mentions Freyr. The whole fatalistic aspect of his involvement is that he can no longer utilize his sword because he gave it as sign of courtship (Iirc) and thus was unable to fight at his best. This being the same man who has a story of beating a giant utilizing the stag antler. Thor is better combatant than him, which combined with Surtr only nuking existence after Odin and Thor are dead, gives serious pause to the idea of just looking at one extremely high end feat for Surt, and asserrting that just means he is blatantly stronger.

Consider also that Surtr would be bound by this destiny as all the Norse are; He is fated to destroy Yggdrassil at x time. No later. No less. It's possible he had to do all that he did because it was fated.

That wouldn't change the fact that Surt is implied to lose the fight if Freyr had a sword. Meaning that the idea that Surt is just casually stronger than other Norse gods and beings is not correct.

Could be holding back. I do admit that his Sword is somewhat of a center point of Ragnarok's closing parts if I recall right, but I don't think there is anything indicating he cannot use the sword at his full power prior to Ragnarok.

Milly was arguing Surt's position in the chain is a measure of his overall combat prowess. If Surt was of the level claimed here, he wouldn't have struggled with a swordless god. The myth clearly depicts Freyr as a roadblock to Surt and arguably implies Freyr could have won with a sword. So this power that he used to nuke existence not only threatens his own life, but is power he clearly can't just conjure in any combat scenario.

Though, it seems they really wanted to make it less about Level's and more about AP.

I already explained why the AP argument doesn't work. When Joker or any summoner is making a contract with a demon they are typically doing so to attain their power that is stronger than their own. For starters, most fights in game involve the protagonist jumping a smaller level of enemies. Rarely is the protagonist alone capable of 1v1'ing a lot of the demons as they progress through leveling. Secondly, Demons typically far output the power of the human themselves. Compare Joker's gun/knife damage to his elemental attacks from his persona.

As I said above, respect and resonance are typically the key factors involved. Especially with persona, which are just aspects of the self and merge with the user, but even devil summoner allies are referred to as "Nakama," and this underlies the whole point of conversation, bribery, etc, being used to gain a new ally. Non of those things have anything to do with power. Power is however a factor, but you still have to use other demons to fight and rough the demon up before they just take your word for it. Joker is in a unique position because of his fate stuff, social link skills, and the fact that he has to undo mindwipe from a palace owner, not just regularly convince the demons.

Fair statement from a solely gameplay standpoint. From a lore standpoint... Refer to earlier when I talk about how funky the level's can be in between games.

Yes, but once again, I am not comparing levels across games. I am comparing Thor across games and utilizing his level to scale him to the demons found in SMT 5 (since that's Naho's native game) and where that would place Joker in strength. The whole point of me doing such is to not cross-scale levels from different games and get an objective standard to compare Joker to the SMT 5 verse.

I believe that they were mainly referring to Surt's general AP as supposedly scaling to the feat.

Yeah, and I am asking why that isn't consistent with his actual story. He only shows that level of strength once during a specific fated event. In prior instances of combat, he is nowhere near an overall superior fighter to gods such as Freyr and Thor. Something that SMT 5 would seem to indicate.

There is little to indicate that Velvet Siblings vs Normal Persona User's are really too different on the side of how the Persona works.

That's inherently false. Rulers of power are born with their inherent ability to control persona and what not. Their name itself indicates this, they are simply tasked with ruling power and are nigh god like beings just because. However, it's made clear they lack actual life experience and proper bonding. The whole reason that Liz leaves the room is because of the bond she experiences with Makoto and her journey to actually explore that bond and herself. Human/Koro open up their persona through intense feelings (experiences), self-realization and bonds with their social links. The attendants clearly lack all of those aforementioned aspects and live a largely functional existence.

That being said, there can be something differing in, say, Elizabeth's Physiology that could matter, though that's conjecture.

I don't agree. For instance, we can directly compare Morgana and the rulers of power. Morgana had to strengthen his persona through battle and experience with the crew. He also only has one persona that is directly tied to his soul. That's clearly different than the Attendants who have power without experience and house persona in a compendium (a book separate from themselves) as opposed to their soul.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

If you can prove it, sure.


I don’t get this example.

His personas use the power of the demon, amplified by his heart, and his bonds or confidants

You know how Nyx is stronger than masakado right? Makoto Yuki summoned Surt for like the first time and he could slice apart Nyx's arms, and Odin could block Nyx's physical strikes with effort. Joker's Alice and Yoshitsune did a lot of damage to Shido, which also supports my argument that his Personas should be a lot stronger than regular incarnations of those demons. You explained why Nahobino is immensely superior to Thor, but are his demons strong enough to one shot Thor like Okuninushi did?

That's inherently false. Rulers of power are born with their inherent ability to control persona and what not. Their name itself indicates this, they are simply tasked with ruling power and are nigh god like beings just because. However, it's made clear they lack actual life experience and proper bonding. The whole reason that Liz leaves the room is because of the bond she experiences with Makoto and her journey to actually explore that bond and herself. Human/Koro open up their persona through intense feelings (experiences), self-realization and bonds with their social links. The attendants clearly lack all of those aforementioned aspects and live a largely functional existence.

I don't agree. For instance, we can directly compare Morgana and the rulers of power. Morgana had to strengthen his persona through battle and experience with the crew. He also only has one persona that is directly tied to his soul. That's clearly different than the Attendants who have power without experience and house persona in a compendium (a book separate from themselves) as opposed to their soul.

Joker doesn't start with negotiating with demons when fighting against enemies that summoned shadows, so if Nahobino is strong enough Joker would just get killed before all that. What you're saying about Elizabeth and her Personas isn't true, her soul does merge with the archetype when summoning a Persona

Spoiler: Velvet Blue chapter 5

“They truly don’t let up.” With a click of her tongue, Elizabeth took a step back, but she bumped into something behind her. She looked over her shoulder and saw her sister. “Are you okay, Elizabeth?” Margaret asked. “I am perfectly well, but these Shadows are becoming tiresome to deal with.” “What a coincidence. Dealing with these insects has become boring for me too.” They both spoke forcefully, showing that they still had life in them. Even so, their faces were dripping with sweat. Personas could not be used endlessly without repercussions. They are the power of one's soul; the more the Persona is used, the more the soul is strained. Elizabeth, alongside her fellow ruler of power, naturally possessed an extraordinary level of mental fortitude compared to normal Persona Users. Regardless, they would be exhausted if they continued to fight the Shadows without end.

Spoiler: Velvet blue chapter 1

Elizabeth had nine main Personas that she used in battle: Surt, Jack Frost, Thor, Cu Chulainn, Metatron, Alice, Nebiros, Masakado, and Pixie. She released the sword and put the card in front of her into play. Her heart took the form of a Lightning-focused Persona: a god of Norse mythology, Thor.