Ren Amamiya/Joker VS Giorno Giovana

[Solacis]

Some dude that doesn't know how we do VS matches tried to say that Lvl 99 Personas solo Jojo.

Anyway, this is 7-C Joker at minimum for R1. Giorno gets destroyed with a tap, so GE's damage transfer would pose a problem. That said, Joker's Personas are usually what attack for him, so the damage would transfer to the Personas which would get destroyed, but their destruction doesn't really matter to Ren. Ren's also smart enough to figure out how GE's damage transfer works as soon as he notices his Persona disappear after destroying GE's created life. He'll stick to Persona attacks for sure after that.

If Giorno goes for anything besides creating life, he gets blasted into ashes.

Voting for Joker in Round 1.

 

[Chariot190]

>If Giorno goes for anything besides creating life, he gets blasted into ashes

That's literally what he does in 90% of circumstances though. Half his fights he outright leads with it in some way or form.

>implying Giorno won't pull out his ultimate ability against a 7-C.

smh.

 

[Solacis]

Reminder that Giorno doesn't know how strong Joker is compared to him. All he'd see is a potential stand-user. If anything, Giorno's likely to take a hit at least once before creating life, as he tends to not get the first move against anyone he's ever fought.

Giorno's never created life with the intent to use damage transfer once, and that was against Bruno, well after the fight had already started. Against Bruno, he led with close combat. Same for Black Sabbath, again against Baby Face, and again against Cioccolata. Even when he does create life, he only ever does it to make use of whatever lifeform he makes, to trick his opponent, or to heal. He never leads with damage transfer after his scuffle with Luca, and afaik he never used it again after Bruno. You'd think it would've helped a lot against Cioccolata's Green Day, for example.

Regardless, Joker's more likely to use spells against anything he's unfamiliar with, and from there he'll catch on to the damage transfer. One AOE attack will vaporize Giorno, GE and any life it's created. It'll destroy the Persona too, but those just come back a moment later, anyway.

 

[Chariot190]

Ignoring the fact that isn't true. It's usually because he's blindsided and thrown into a fight without even being aware of his opponent that he simply doesn't get the chance to use it or he uses cqc because his opponent just blidsided him and theyre in punching range, not the case here. Wouldn't really take long to figure out how strong Joker is given Giorno, later on at least, is a lot more cautious and calculating. He'd likely test the waters first before going in fists blazing.

He did on Koichi as well and Bruno he was super inexperienced, literally just learning that other Stands exist like, a hour ago. Every other time his opponent eithr, didn't attack the life he created, Giorno couldn't create life in that situation, or he and his opponent never actually got close enough. The damage deflection is automatic, Giorno doesnt control if or if it doesnt happen. If Giorno creates life, which he always does in fights, even out of fights, often doing so even in the middle of fights and Joker damages said life, that's out of Giorno's control, the damage will reflect regardless of Giorno's intention as it's automatic, Giorn himself says as much.

As for that I'm not so sure it'd work that way. The damage deflection transfers onto the attacker, not the thing attacking. It's a small but key difference, Persona or not, it may target Joker anyway in the end. Not to mention the damage deflection can reflect back things other than just damage, given it deflected Gravity manipulation before, so a good chunk of his spells are able to backfire on him.

 

[Chariot190]

Also what? Damage transfer is the worst possible thing he could've done to Ciocollata, his organisms would of been subject to the molding effect. In fact the very few life he created in that fight were static organisms that wouldnt move.

2:45-3:40 is a decent breakdown of it.

 

[Solacis]

There's no "testing the waters" here. Joker annihilates Giorno with anything he throws out. If he doesn't immediately go for damage transfer, he stands no chance.

As for how the damage transfer would apply to Joker despite the attack coming from his Persona, that's purely assumption. Persona magic is cast through the Personas, and the Personas themselves are AEs while the forms that float around and attack are effectively physical avatars of it. It doesn't matter if those forms are destroyed because it wouldn't affect the Persona's true form, which is its user's personality. Unless GE has been shown to be capable of affecting Abstracts, that argument is invalid.

The case with Koichi isn't special. GE was transferring the force of the gravity, not the gravity itself. Joker's magic won't just fire back at him, or else it would be Attack Reflection, and not Damage Transferral.

 

[Chariot190]

There is actually, ignoring the fact speed is equal so simply avoiding the majority of his attacks are a viable option, even the AOE ones if at a sufficient range. Joker isnt exactly one to go in guns blazing either, dude doesnt lead with a giga **** you spell in any circumstances, especially not early on and idk if you missed this part but, he only has Arsene in Round 1, who lacks a lot of the aoe or long ranged skills. And yes, Giorno uses his animals if given the chance, always has unless literally incapable og doing so.

How is it an assumption? All that matters is what the organism perceives as the attacker, not what's actually attacking it. That's exactly how it functions, if the organism perceives Joker as the cause of the attacks or the source then by all accounts, it's quite likely that the damage will reflect onto him. Also idk why you're calling Persona's abstract when they're just the User's mind and soul and aren't even abstract, they're quite litteraly the closest Stand equalivent in media, and GE's deflection and the like works completely fine on the manifestation of the user's soul and all that, hell Stands in general can do that (some better than others though like Whitesnake and KQ).

>The case with Koichi isn't special. GE was transferring the force of the gravity, not the gravity itself. Joker's magic won't just fire back at him, or else it would be Attack Reflection, and not Damage Transferral.

It's both actually, although don't know why you're making such huge claims as factual when the very page it happens says Act 3's Attack was deflected towards me!. So, you're kinda straight up wrong on that front. It can reflect both damage and abilities and the like, such as gravity manipulation, because it straight up said that's what happened.

 

[Chariot190]

The only Persona skills Joker has, if I'm not wrong are Eiha, Cleave, Sukunda, Needles and Adverse Resolve in this match.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

So much of that is unbelievably wrong, as in assuming Joker's mentality, skills, and the physiology of Persona.

 

[Chariot190]

Straight from his profile.

Persona Summoning: Ren's main ability consists of being able to utilize his Personas, powerful manifestations of his mind and soul.

Profile literally says that his Persona's are just manifestations of his mind/soul and they lack Abstract existence but have Non-Corporality, if it's wrong take it up with the profile, not me.

Also how am I assuming his skills? OP, literally says he's restricted to just Arsene and that's it in Round 1, and those are the skills Arsene has, if you have issue with that, well take it up with the game itself for making Arsene one of the least viable Persona's I guess or OP for restricting Joker down to just his main Persona, that being Arsene. It isn't really an assumption, you can literally check what Arsene has yourself.

And as for mentality, I'm just going off what I've seen in the game itself thus far, could be wrong but I've played a bit of it (although I put it on the back burner till P5Royal launches, I'll just pick up from where I left off in that one) and Joker didnt come as a dude who went all in with his most broken and powerful techniques right away.

 

[DarkGrath]

You're incorrect about Arsene only having a few beginner skills. Those are what Arsene starts with, but Personas are capable of using almost any and all skills in the game (with the exception of skills directly against their affinity or extremely unique skills). Arsene can use just about any skill in the game, and assuming he'd only ever have access to the skills he starts with and nothing else is massively gimping him in ways that nothing here implies.

 

[Chariot190]

What about the fact it's supposed to be begining of game Arsene and Joker?

 

[Rustobal]

Persona defaults aren't a big deal. He can have them on any skill. In smash bros, he used eigaon, tetrakarn, and makarakarn which are arsene's non default skills. Especially using atomic flare in star ocean anamnesis. He can make any persona with any skill via fusion but cannot use unique skills such as thanatos door of hades, cross slash, magatsu mandala, shining arrows, hassou tobi, die for me, morning star or sinfull shell.

 

[Solacis]

@Chariot

It's not? Restricting Joker to just Arsene, even more so to just the beginning of the game which isn't one of his keys, is straight-up against the rules for VS matches. Regardless of the result, the match wouldn't be added.

 

[Chariot190]

>Key: Early Game | Mid Game | Late Game | End Game | With Satanael

Those are his keys. Everyone, including you, has been debating under the assumption that we're using the 7-C, aka early game, Joker. Early game is anywhere from the beginning of the game to, well honestly, I don't know, early is kinda super vague but going by the profile. No further then the first palace. So Joker is kinda restricted, at minimum, the skills Arsene would have canonically up to that point, which beats me, I dont know the specifics. You're implying I care in the slightest if the match gets added, tbh I ain't really into the whole listing victories or losses on profiles in general, seems way to subjective and subject to change to list matches as fact in my honest opinion but that's just me, as such, if Joker only has Arsene (which you could easily justify anyway by saying it's beginning of the game Joker, which probably is allowed given it's a clear timeframe and point in the game being used and I've seen other similiar things in other matches) then that's what OP says I guess.

 

[Solacis]

Fair enough. No need take it so personally when I'm just pointing out that the match is ultimately invalid - something I pointed out earlier to OP, who hasn't responded.

Well assuming we're sticking to Arsene, you're still wrong about a lot of things. Namely, Joker doesn't need to go in "guns blazing" to win. Any AOE attack would work, and that applies to over half of his moveset with a Persona, be it physical or magical. For example, Maragi is relatively weak, but it's AOE and 7-C so it'll incinerate Giorno regardless.

Personas share the same physiology as Shadows, which are Abstracts. That's all there is to it.

 

[Chariot190]

I wasn't taking it personally, I guess it just came off as much though.

Ain't gonna lie, your idea of an AOE and mine are very different, I wouldnt call Maragi an AOE, and it's easily dodged at that in any range that isn't basic cqc. I mean you aren't wrong, it does have an area of effect, but said things can still be avoided, it isnt like it's a huge multi-km nuke. Or course Joker would win if he lands a blow on Giorno, nobody said otherwise. Doesn't mean said attacks can't be avoided, especially in speed equal (which is a boon to nobody other than Joker) and while said attacks can't instakill Giorno, the same can be said for any of his organisms. Kinda a double edge sword there. (Hell if Giorno was smart he'd just keep a organism on him to bodyblock said attacks as the organisms dont take any damage from the damage they deflect). Tough to say if that's in or out of character though given Giorno is usually blindsided or he does make organisms but his opponents straight up counter it like Green Day, King Crimson or White Album (or giorno is taken out before he even gets into the fight like with Clash).

Take it up with the profiles not me, The Persona's are listed as non-corporal and that's it, zero mention of abstract existence or even abstract anything, I don't even think the word is mentioned on the profile at all according to CTRL+F.


But either way, point still stands, we need to figure out what skills Arsene can even have early game, and even what early game means. Unless we're using bog, in which case we know what he has. Either or.

 

[Zel97]

Giorno doesnt use dmg reflection in char how is this not a stomp

 

[Solacis]

@Chariot

It is an issue with the profiles, admittedly, but it doesn't change the fact that it's an agreed-upon revision that was just small enough to have been missed when updating the profiles.

Don't underestimate multi-target attack AOEs. Persona spells manifest the way the caster wants them to. Akihiko turned Zio into lightning gloves, lightning domes, electric aura, an electric sphere that let him float, etc. Chie turned her ice spells into a detailed and moving dragon from pure instinct. In terms of sheer AOE, Yu Narukami managed this with one spell. Even if the power is different compared to the linked feat, the potential range of any multi-target AOEs is still huge.

 

[Chariot190]

>abstract existence

>small

Uh, I'm gonna have to disagree on that front.

I'm not underestimating em, I'm judging it off what they appear to be in game or what we've seen Joker do. Ignoring the fact that's a cast from an earlier game and an early Joker may or may not be capable of such feats and one of the reason's why Yu's aoe was that large was because of that spells power. Highly doubt an early game Arsene is capable of what looks to be a city level blast with his aoe, which loops around to the question of what skills would Arsene even have early game. Your first list of examples is just being versatile and precise with spells, not the actual aoe of said spells. Actually if we're using anime, why don't we just look at how Joker fights and uses his skills in the P5 anime? Given that's an unbiased and not player controlled look at him in action.

 

[Chariot190]

Giorno doesnt use dmg reflection in char how is this not a stomp

It doesn't have to be in character, it's automatic. Giorno uses animals in characters and damage deflect is automatic. Kinda speaks for itself.

 

[Solacis]

>abstract existence
>small

Uh, I'm gonna have to disagree on that front.

In the wake of, like, a million other additions? Yeah, small. Small enough to go unnoticed when everything was said and done.

You realize we're talking about a city-buster here, right? That linked feat from Yu barely scratches 8-A, while Ren in this key is 7-C. With spells that manifest however they want, replicating that feat would be easy for him.

 

[Chariot190]

Not really no, you'd think that something that applies to literally every character would be a big addition.

Town level actually, about 2000x less than city, and in Attack Potency, which doesn't automatically translate into destructive capacity or even range, not how things work. Cool so if I ask for an example of Joker actually doing something like that you could provide it right? Manifesting a spell in such a way it's tens of thousands of times larger than it is in game or his own anime, that is. Or we could just look at the anime and see how he does things in character given you're using the anime.

Also why are you scaling what an early Joker can do with what a mid-late Yu can do, with what I assume to be a completely different spell at that, ignoring they aren't even in the same game. And as said, we still gotta figure out what Arsene can even do here.

 

[Solacis]

You talk about them not being in the same game, or them being at different points in their game, as if that matters. Different protagonists grow at different rates throughout their story, and in-universe Persona mechanics and spell availability don't ever change between games.

I don't think you really get what I'm saying here. Yu's spells show no sign of approaching that level of AOE from just his games, yet the anime treats it as normal by the time he's reached a certain level of proficiency with his Persona. This makes sense and isn't an outlier because we know from the Arena games that spells are extremely malleable and are seemingly restricted only by the user's imagination. This mechanic would apply to every Persona-user, including the Phantom Thieves.

Now consider the fact that the Phantom Thieves are by far leagues more powerful and more skilled in the use of their powers in comparison to any Persona-user in Persona 4, who were basically winging it from the get-go till the end, and there is literally no reason why Ren cannot replicate if not exceed Yu's above feat of AOE.

 

[Chariot190]

Yes, i am talking about how they're not from the same game thus we have no reason to assume they're capable of the same feats (in this regard anyway, I'm aware there is some actual scaling going on) even if they're working upon the same power system unless we have direct evidence to suggest the contrary, for this specific interation. And hey, you said it yourself, different rates of growth, do I need to remind you what early game Joker means here?

And I could say the same thing, you clearly don't understand my point. You're taking feats from other characters, and extrapolating them and applying it to a fresh Joker but not only that you're taking what we see from a completely different spell and applying to the basic baby tier spells. Not how it works, if mid game and beyond spells can reach that aoe fine, but once again, early game Joker, you said it yourself, once he reaches a certain level of profiency, something this Joker, honestly, probably hasn't done given you're comparing Joker at the start to Yu with a hell of a lot more experience. We dont even know if Joker knows he can do that. Anyway you're extrapolating feats from different characters and even different spells and applying it to the easy and basic spells of the game and a early Joker. Not how it works, yeah I'm sure Joker can eventually do that, but without sufficient proof that this Joker can, well just saying he can ain't gonna cut it. Let alone taking a different and stronger version of a spell and saying that because spells can be controlled that means both can be used in the same way.

Except the character's you're quoting as being far less skilled and experienced than the Phantom Theives are the end-game versions of those characters. Yes, I'm sure the 7-C Joker is far more skilled and powerful then the 4-A/Low 2-C Chei (given that's what Arena is according to the profiles), that's was sarcasm. He isn't.

The reason is, to put bluntly, you're scaling characters who you cant scale between, at least, not the versions you're using. 7-C Joker can't be scaled to a mid-late game Yu or Arena characters as said characters are they're end-game versions. Also every one of the examples, other than a drastically stronger Yu using a different spell, isnt even aoe, it's versatility/precision/utility feats.

Also as said, which you've ignored three times I think now, we can simply take a look at Joker's very own anime, given he has one himself to see how he works in a non-gameplay riddled state if you're bringing anime into this on top of the fact we still need to figure out what Arsene can even do, depending on what he even has here this conversation could be completely pointless.

Should also point out that nothing on his profile even suggests the claims you're making.

 

[Solacis]

This isn't a "fresh" Joker. This is a Joker that's relatively early into the game, but not a beginner. He's been through 3 Palaces by the time he's at his 7-C key. That's 4 months of training from Morgana. Add that Morgana is way more skilled in the use of cognition and Personas compared to even the end-game P4 crew, and he directly references teaching the Thieves everything he knows regarding Personas and their use in combat.

I'm not extrapolating feats, I'm extrapolating from the mechanics of a universal power system that exists unchanged between games. The only spells that change between games are certain ailments and in P5's case, the addition of more elements. The only difference between spells of the same element are their strength and their range. There's no complexity between different spell tiers, no nuanced learning curves for different elements. You're applying limitations to spells that flat-out don't exist. This is how spells work, as agreed upon by the Persona knowledgeables, people who know what they're talking about concerning the verse, after several discussions.

The P5 anime also has its own limitations. Even if a comparable feat of AOE isn't shown, it's not because it's impossible. In case you haven't noticed, most of the fighting goes on indoors. Hardly practical to pull a blast that can raze a cityscape while several kilometres under the ground, or in a confined space station, or a cruise liner.

Not to mention how we've missed the point entirely. Yu's feat of AOE was just an example. It doesn't even have to be that large. The spells manifest at the target's location by default, so even with speed equal, Giorno would be hard-pressed to dodge. The AOE would just make it impossible, since Giorno's been tagged by attack speeds around his own level anyway. Compare that to a pillar of fire that erupts from beneath him with zero tells, and he's quite literally toast.

 

[Chariot190]

Yes, fresh, early, whatever you wanna call it, still not comparable to the end game cast of P4, especially when said utility examples you used are from end game. Morgana clearly didnt teach em everything if theyre still being taught after the early game. Still begs the question if being taught everything he knows would even result in that. Because thinking on it, not so sure if controlling spells aoe is even a thing looking back at your Yu example.

You are extrapolating, quite a lot actually, in fact, you basically admitted as such. >the only difference between spells of the same element are their strength and their range.

Yes, the power and their range as you said, which in context of giant explosions, is power and range, now tell me, what's the power and range difference between the spell Yu used and what Joker has access to? If the answer is anything above what Joker has then your apparent example is completely unusable. Why are you resorting to the old appeal to authority fallacy? I dont care what others think on this subject, especially given I'm not even arguing what they agreed upon, the agreed upon subjects are fine. I'm arguing you extrapolating a feat from a much stronger character to a much weaker character, saying because this character can do it so can this other character, despite having access to different spells and the like in that context, are the mechanics the same? Sure. Does that mean both are in fact capable of the same thing? Eventually probably, but eventually isnt a right now.

The p5 anime having it's own limitations really doesnt matter (and even then, that's a half truth), I'm saying point out to me where Joker has ever actually done something even slightly similiar in nature, such as expanding the aoe of one of his spells to a noticeable extent. There's definitely cases where that would have been useful, and he had little reason not to do so. Not to mention that doesnt matter, we can still take a look at the P5 anime to see what he actually does in character and how he's supposed to fight, which is why I even brought up, as I already said. If Joker doesnt even do half of these things outside of gameplay, then the whole topic is moot.

A bad example no offense, you took the biggest example you could find and applied it to someone who's never shown anything like it, not only that but a much weaker incarnation of it. Hell thinking about it, Yu's aoe example probably isnt even him controlling the aoe given looking at it again, it's actually several thousand seperate projectiles that lead to that giant aoe, not one singular spell. So, when has Joker ever spammed a mass amount of attacks at a given time?

Actually about that, thinking on it, I can't think of a single time Giorno, while in a fight, was tagged by something with equal speed. He's usually tagged by characters faster than him (such as King Crimson ripping his arm off, King Crimson is arguably top 4 fastest Stands) or he's sneaked attacked (such as Clash) but for characters equal in speed with him, he always manages to dodge or counter and when he doesnt, it's due to a miscalculation or plain **** up on his part (******* with his perception making it so he couldnt dodge black sabbath or getting zippered by Bruno because he hit Bruno, thought the fight was done but Bruno swapped his arm out with someone else's, making him not be effected by Giorno's ability, taking Giorno by surprise with a surprise counter). Giorno, using his ability to create organisms, has in character and is capable of, using them to avoid attacks that spawn underhim, such as creating a tree to propel himself upward (which may even lead to a deflect scenario like against Echoes Act 3). Also what are you talking about? There's tells, some pretty obvious ones at that with some spells actually having several second long tells (at least from the character perspective). Enough of a tell that, in worst case scenario, it'd end with a crosscounter with Giorno getting his legs dusted (which honestly, could be worse for him) but Joker getting hit by whatever his spells would do to a tree back at him. Best case scenario is Giorno simply evades it, if even barely. Which leads me to another question, what is even the range for early game Joker, he obviously doesnt have multi-km range early on, that or he's hit by some pretty bad PIS/CIS.


But again, what spells is Arsene even gonna have here, you keep ignoring that. Kinda super important.

 

[AllanShadow78]

can both of you please explain what you are arguing about to a dumbass (me) so i may have a clue on why so long arguments. it would really be appreciated

 

[Chariot190]

At the moment, if an early game Joker can manipulate the aoe of his spells and attacks to a drastic extent, or I guess now, if he can fire off several thousand, if not tens of thousans of spells, at one time.

On top of what an early game Arsene would even have at his disposal.

 

[Solacis]

I'm not even going to keep arguing with you about the AOE thing. It's irrelevant to the outcome at this point and I'm just tired of the topic. I admit you have good points, so I'll bring it up with the other knowledgeables in order to formulate a more clear explanation for why Joker can (or can't) do the same as Narukami.

Moving on,

We've already established that Arsene would have access to any spell that: A) isn't unique to a specific Persona, like Morning Star or Die For Me!, B) isn't above Tier 2, which means no "-dyne" level spells or higher, and C) isn't against his skill affinities, which means no Bless-type skills.

Giorno can't react to an attack that appears right where he is with no tells, and there are no tells. Joker's spells are thought-based. There's no motion to signal the spell being cast. At most, Arsene appears, but to Giorno, that's no different from a Stand appearing behind its user. Even if Giorno gets on guard, he doesn't know that the spell would manifest right on him.

Unless Giorno has instinctive reaction, or a speed amp, by the time he realizes he's being attacked, he's already been hit. His life creation takes time. A small amount of time, but way longer than it takes for Joker's spell to work. It's not even going to be a fire spell, that was an example. Arsene's thing is Curse attacks and Sleep spells, and Giorno has no experience dealing with curses, so he won't sense it coming.

And once again, the attack won't reflect.

One, Gold Experience has never affected an Abstract. Two, GE's "damage transfer" is listed as Attack Reflection on his page, something Joker deals with all the time. So even if it does reflect onto Joker despite Arsene doing the attacking and being its own entity capable of independent thought, Joker can just take it and switch to using Megido, which bypasses reflection, or use Lullaby, which incaps.

 

[Chariot190]

>We've already established that Arsene would have access to any spell that: A) isn't unique to a specific Persona, like Morning Star or Die For Me!, B) isn't above Tier 2, which means no "-dyne" level spells or higher, and C) isn't against his skill affinities, which means no Bless-type skills.

Not early game he doesnt. Have you even played P5? Hell for the little bit I have played I know for a fact Arsene aint gonna have access to all of those skills early. You keep forgetting we're using an early game Joker, and as such an early game Arsene as well. He's restricted to what he has early on.

>Giorno can't react to an attack that appears right where he is with no tells, and there are no tells. Joker's spells are thought-based. There's no motion to signal the spell being cast. At most, Arsene appears, but to Giorno, that's no different from a Stand appearing behind its user. Even if Giorno gets on guard, he doesn't know that the spell would manifest right on him.

Except the second or two long tell of the attack starting up, the attacks, usually, dont just instantly do damage, a good example is the some of the light based spells we're the ground lights up, does some funky shit, that encloses on the enemy doing damage. Yes tells exist and a good chunk if not most do in fact have tells, idk why you're even arguing this when it's easy to gleam from just watching footage from the game. Joker doing the attack has no tell, yes, that is true', but the attack itself though does, well, a good chunk do anyway, some are indeed incredibly fast though.

>Unless Giorno has instinctive reaction, or a speed amp, by the time he realizes he's being attacked, he's already been hit. His life creation takes time. A small amount of time, but way longer than it takes for Joker's spell to work. It's not even going to be a fire spell, that was an example. Arsene's thing is Curse attacks and Sleep spells, and Giorno has no experience dealing with curses, so he won't sense it coming.

Ya know, he actually did amp his reaction time once allowing him to see everything in slow motion, so it isnt impossible for him to do exactly that, it has a downside though but said downside can be turned off at a whim. I'd argue the opposite actually, his life creation was fast enough to where he could create an entire tree from nothing mid fall less than 1cm away from the ground. There's actually been plenty of times the creation has been essentially instant upon contact, mostly for trees but, that's exactly what we're talking about atm luckily.

>it's not going to be a fire spell, it's going to be a curse/sleep spell.

So why waste all our time with your multiple fire spell examples?

>And once again, the attack won't reflect.

>One, Gold Experience has never affected an Abstract. Two, GE's "damage transfer" is listed as Attack Reflection on his page, something Joker deals with all the time. So even if it does reflect onto Joker despite Arsene doing the attacking and being its own entity capable of independent thought, Joker can just take it and switch to using Megido, which bypasses reflection, or use Lullaby, which incaps.

Good thing Arsene isnt listed as an abstract then. I'd suggest getting that added first, otherwise I'm inclined to think otherwise. Especially given the word abstract isn't even mentioned on the profile, at all.

Man you really aren't even consistent within your own arguments. To quote from earlier in the thread.

>The case with Koichi isn't special. GE was transferring the force of the gravity, not the gravity itself. Joker's magic won't just fire back at him, or else it would be Attack Reflection, and not Damage Transferral.

So it's damage transfer when it suits your claims but now it's attack reflection despite earlier you straight up denying it and saying it isnt? No offense, but, your stance on that matters has no bearing on my stance on the subject anymore.

But ignoring that, if it's attack reflection then lullaby gets reflected, if it's damage reflection then, Megido actually doesnt bypass that. It's one or the other (although tbh, as said, it's likely a mix of both but you'e arguing it's strictly just one, well, whatever one it may be, either it reflects Joker's attacks back on him but Megido can bypass or Megido can't bypass and only some of Joker's attacks get deflected back). Either way. Also implying Arsene being capable of his own standalone thoughts matter, so do most Stands (even shit like Star Platinum), not really anything special or anything that would have bearing on what the organism deems the source of the threat.

Also you didn't answer my question, how far is early Joker's effective range anyway? And how does he even fight and go about targeting and defeating opponents in his anime?

 

[Solacis]

I referred to it as Damage Transfer because that's what you and everyone else was calling it. I called it Attack Reflection only after I double-checked the profile. Don't try to pin the mistake on me.

Arsene does have those skills early-game. I feel like you really don't know how Persona fusion works, not to mention that the Gallows unlock on 6/21, well before the deadline for Kaneshiro's Palace.

His effective range is several kilometres with spells.

Melee when in melee range. Spells and Handgun when too far away. Whatever he feels is best when in mid-range, but he defaults to using his Persona to attack.

Even Joker finds it difficult to dodge spells, and he is significantly more agile than Giorno. If Joker can nail small opponents like Pixie, or flying opponents like Jack-o-Lantern, he can hit Giorno easy.

Also, reminder that you're banking so hard on Giorno's damage transfer (I'm using that name because that's what it's called on the profile despite being listed as Attack Reflection). We've already settled that he doesn't use it in character. Yes, it's passive, but that's if he creates life at all. What would he do with his created life? SBA puts this at 4km. Giorno needs to approach to use any of his usual tactics with life creation. We know for a fact that he won't just cover himself with frogs, and he won't know Joker's range far surpasses his own.

Ultimately, Giorno will try to approach, not expecting that he'll get nailed as soon as he comes into view of Joker, who will know the instant his opponent comes into range thanks to Third Eye.

 

[Madotsuki24]

Giorno has no resistance to reality warping and conceptual manipulation, voting Joker.

 

[Solacis]

Joker doesn't have those.

 

[Chariot190]

>I referred to it as Damage Transfer because that's what you and everyone else was calling it. I called it Attack Reflection only after I double-checked the profile. Don't try to pin the mistake on me.

No, that's exactly what I'm gonna do, if you wanted to make such a bold claim that what Giorno did wasnt reflecting Koichi's attack, even going as far to try and explain how it wasnt deflecting the attack, that's entirely on you, not the profile, you kinda cant backpedle on that front. you went the extra step and tried arguing that it wasnt when all you had to was say you werent sure or the prfile said otherwise.

>Arsene does have those skills early-game. I feel like you really don't know how Persona fusion works, not to mention that the Gallows unlock on 6/21, well before the deadline for Kaneshiro's Palace.

Yeah, maybe if you grind to an unbelievable extent. Which begs the question, where does gameplay and canon differ? Hell in theory you could gringd out to lv 99 early on, doesnt mean that's canon. So as said, what do you we know that Arsene even has at this point? But bringing up the anime again, I mean, I could always go watch it myself later and figue out Joker's in character and out of gameplayplan of action myself if need be, playing Okami tho atm so it'd be way later.

>His effective range is several kilometres with spells.

You have an example of that happening? Because other than a few specific ones like Cosmic, the most I've seen is a few meters.

>Also, reminder that you're banking on Giorno's damage transfer (I'm using that name because that's what it's called on the profile despite being listed as Attack Reflection). We've already settled that he doesn't use it in character. Yes, it's passive, but that's if he creates life at all. What would he do with his created life? SBA puts this at 4km. Giorno needs to approach to use any of his usual tactics with life creation. We know for a fact that he won't just cover himself with frogs, and he won't know Joker's range far surpasses his own.

You make it sound like I'm voting Giorno? Don't think I actually voted for him. Yes, because judging by what's seen doing, it's damage deflection that has shown the capability to also reflect attacks in some cases like with Echoes' Gravity manip. He does use it in character, he doesn't even have a choice in the matter, it's automatic and the only time he hadnt used it in character is because of matters completely out of his control. I even linked you a quick breakdown explaining othrwise. So no, going we settled on him not using it in character is blatantly untrue. In fact I'd vehemently disagree on that front. What would he do with his created life? Anything really, he pulls shit out of nowhere all the time with said things, and it's something he uses all the time, wethr it be scoping ot his opponent, laying traps, moving around, sneak attacking, locatig things and hidden targets, attacking out of cqc, avoiding attacks, using animals in unconventional ways to counter foes, turning objects into animals to get rid of said object, etc. He's even used animals to adapt resistances. He doesnt have to approach, he's sent his animals kilometers away from himself before, actually thinking on it, I think we even have an aproximattion, with it being dozens of kilometers going by the snake he sent after Melone (which if im not wrong, he was at the train checkin and Giorno was a 4 hours off of venice). But again, how far has Joker actually been seen using a spell on a target? I can read the profile but I know for a fact said range doesnt apply to every skill he has, and if it does, where's a link to his range feat?

>Ultimately, Giorno will try to approach, not expecting that he'll get nailed as soon as he comes into view of Joker, who will know the instant his opponent comes into range thanks to Third Eye.

That isnt even inherently true, there's been cases where Giorno went out of his way not to approach his targets, staying away to scope em out or being overtly cautious and taking enemies out from far away or out of his cqc. And if Giorno doesnt know what his opponent can do, he aint gonna approach withot being stupidly cautious. Joker can know when he comes into range but at the same time, youre kinda avoiding giving concrete answers on a lot of the questions for me to even tell if it's even helpful.

 

[Madotsuki24]

Oops, I read it again and he has resistance to reality warping, he doesn't have it himself... With Sataneel, he has concept manip, but what round are we using?

 

[Chariot190]

Probably neither at the rate this is going. Round 2 seems to be a bit redundant.

 

[Solacis]

Seriously, if you're not even arguing for a vote, why are you here?

You keep talking about needing specific depictions of feats, forgetting that the games are the primary canon and thus is limited in its depictions. Games you haven't played or finished playing, according to you. I'm not going to waste more time debating a point that isn't even relevant anymore.

> So no, going we settled on him not using it in character is blatantly untrue. In fact I'd vehemently disagree on that front. What would he do with his created life? Anything really, he pulls shit out of nowhere all the time with said things, and it's something he uses all the time, wethr it be scoping ot his opponent, laying traps, moving around, sneak attacking, locatig things and hidden targets, attacking out of cqc, avoiding attacks, using animals in unconventional ways to counter foes, turning objects into animals to get rid of said object, etc.

We've settled that he doesn't create life specifically with the intent to use the damage deflection. I've been very specific about this, so read. Scoping out his opponent, locating and finding hidden targets, against a guy that can hide from the nose of a trained security dog at point-blank range? What would traps do against a person he can't predict the movements of, and that doesn't need to get close to attack? The same goes for sneak attacking. Can't sneak attack someone that has superior senses with the Third Eye, which highlights traps, hostiles, and other potential areas/objects of interest. Counter foes? As if he can damage Ren in any way whatsoever with regular attacks?

> I can read the profile but I know for a fact said range doesnt apply to every skill he has,

No, you don't know for a fact. His range scales to the P2 cast, whose magic has comparable range to a sniper rifle. Since they're the SAME spells, the range is the same regardless of what spell he uses. Don't even try to argue this here. Make a CRT if you disagree.

> That isnt even inherently true, there's been cases where Giorno went out of his way not to approach his targets, staying away to scope em out or being overtly cautious and taking enemies out from far away or out of his cqc.

Sure. He can stay away. Too bad Ren is stealthy enough to sneak up on him and has the superior range plus the senses needed to find him without revealing his position. The moment Ren leaves line of sight, Giorno's lost him. Giorno can maybe sense him if he's nearby, but Ren doesn't need to get near.

 

[Chariot190]

>Seriously, if you're not even arguing for a vote, why are you here?

Because put bluntly, I think your reasoning is faulty. Hell I could be voting for Joker and still debate this with you, there's no rule that says I cant.

>You keep talking about needing specific depictions of feats, forgetting that the games are the primary canon and thus is limited in its depictions. Games you haven't played or finished playing, according to you. I'm not going to waste more time debating a point that isn't even relevant anymore.

Then why are you bringing up anime? It wasnt I who did so, I was completely fine with using strictly the games but you brought anime into this with the reasoning that it wasnt bund to gameplay mechanics and the like so now the anime is a primary unbiased source that we're using. You kinda have to blame yourself for that one dude. I've played P2 and P3 back at launch for the latter. I've played some Persona, just not 5 fully (or 4, albeit I watched a friend off and on play chunks of it so I got the general idea of that game).


>We've settled that he doesn't create life specifically with the intent to use the damage deflection. I've been very specific about this, so read. Counter foes? As if he can damage Ren in any way whatsoever with regular attacks?

Not inherently true either so I'd refrain from saying we settled on a matter that we haven't actually done so on. We dont know if he does or not, was never put in a situation after a certain point where we'd even know if it's in character or not. Doesnt matter anyway, automatic, not even in Giorno's control.

>Scoping out his opponent, locating and finding hidden targets, against a guy that can hide from the nose of a trained security dog at point-blank range? The same goes for sneak attacking.

Yes actually, given Giorno can create animals specialized in finding targets, in some cases, via supernatural means. Giorno can create things far better suited then a trained dog to track a target. Don't forget he has access to literally any organism, even capable of cloning in some cases.

>Can't sneak attack someone that has superior senses with the Third Eye, which highlights traps, hostiles, and other potential areas/objects of interest.

Yeah, except Joker has to actively use it but ignoring that, you actually can sneak attack Joker, literally just has to be out of his line of sight. Third eye aint like a sonar or anything last I checked.

>No, you don't know for a fact. His range scales to the P2 cast, whose magic has comparable range to a sniper rifle. Since they're the SAME spells, the range is the same regardless of what spell he uses. Don't even try to argue this here. Make a CRT if you disagree.

Given from the looks of it given your complete lack of examples, Joker has never been seen utilzing such range, basically ever, idk seems a tad iffy to me. And yet the p2 profiles lack multi-km range and instead use a mere much higher with spells, which is, of course, vague and doesnt actually give a proper range. Pretty sure it's you that has to make the CRT in this case. And besides is that range even talking about how far the attack can spawn underneath the target or simple things like how far a fireball can go before fizzling out after getting launched. Depending on the answer, yes, range still matters.


> That isnt even inherently true, there's been cases where Giorno went out of his way not to approach his targets, staying away to scope em out or being overtly cautious and taking enemies out from far away or out of his cqc. What would traps do against a person he can't predict the movements of, and that doesn't need to get close to attack?

He doesnt need to predict, he just needs his animals to do so for him. Aint hard to formulate a plan, create an organism and go yeah, find this dude and do _____ or _____ or whatever the organisms in question are best suited to do. Giorno doesnt need to get close either, animals can go far away from him, they may not even have a range on em, gonna have to double check. Although I did check the distance from Melone to Giorno, it indeed was at least a dozen or so km. The manga featured a map pointing out where Giorno and Melone where, with it being several hours apart, about 4-5.

>Sure. He can stay away. Too bad Ren is stealthy enough to sneak up on him and has the superior range plus the senses needed to find him without revealing his position. The moment Ren leaves line of sight, Giorno's lost him. Giorno can maybe sense him if he's nearby, but Ren doesn't need to get near.

Wouldnt be so sure, you forget GE can sense life energy within like, at least a 50+ meter radius. And Giorno can easily create organisms, plants, and the like that would tip him off to any movement, bodyheat, vibrations, and sound. Given how many animals can specilize in said things, even plants, like various form of cacti. If Giorno loses his opponent's wherabouts, he aint just gonna sit there, he has options and options he'd most certainly use, and options greatly above a mere trained dog. And I'm assuming the whole Ren doesnt got to get close is talking about his range, about that, still didnt answer my question above on the range.

 

[Solacis]

The case of range doesn't matter. His magic does have that range and Joker's not stupid enough to not use that advantage when he can. It's on the profiles, so as far as this match is concerned, that's his range.

Point me to the lifeforms that can actually pick out Joker specifically in NYC/Central Park. And as for GE's senses, life energy is everywhere, and afaik Giorno has no means of identifying what life belongs to what beyond guesswork. Joker's Third Eye, on the other hand, works to highlight specifically what he wants to find, and is a 360-degree view since it highlights everything around Joker, through walls and other obstacles, not just what's in his line of sight. Joker also clearly uses his Third Eye very, very often. He'll use it even when there's no logical reason to, as shown when he can use it for random day-to-day actions. After all, it's not like it takes any effort to turn it on. Joker can see Giorno with his Third Eye so long as he's anywhere within his range, and it just so happens that 4km is well within his range. The moment Giorno stops moving, he gets nailed with an attack he doesn't see coming. Curse spells erupt from the ground by default.

The attacks not instantly doing damage is also game mechanics. It's a standardized attack animation, not a unique one like for unique skills like Morning Star. Ziodyne in previous games is a regular lightning bolt. Ziodyne in the Arena games vary depending on the user. Yu and Adachi fire it like a beam, Akihiko makes a dome, Kanji channels it through his Persona's weapon. If there was actually as much start-up as the animation shows, literally nobody would get hit by those spells.

Don't forget that Giorno would need to find Joker specifically in a city full of millions of people, and he can be anywhere within 4 kilometres of him from the beginning. Not to mention, when has Giorno ever done something of that scale? Point me to a time when Giorno creates a thousand individual lifeforms at once to locate a target.