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Ren Amamiya/Joker VS Giorno Giovana

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0ホルスファルコン将軍0

0ホルスファルコン将軍0

He/Him
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The Gangstar's Surprise!

Round 1: Joker can only use Arsene and Giorno can only use Gold Experience

Round 2: Joker has Sataneel and Giorno has GER

Additional rules will be added if need be.

Edit: Speed is equalized.

GiornoP3
I have a dream.

Ren Amamiya Joker NPC
"Looking cool, Joker!"
 
Joker's weakest key is still enough to completely destroy Giorno since he's 7-C.

For Round 2 Giorno incaps with willpower manipulation and return to zero
 
Wow wow willpower manipulation can't be used anymore tho, I'm fine with keeping it on his page but we can't just assume it works for 24 hours and RtZ isn't an incap either since GER has to constantly refresh it so it doesn't reach 24 hours either.
 
Due to the state of utilization on how we treat wp manip, it'd be the truest of inconclusives, literally nothing will happen, at all, idk if even time will proceed forward because of the constant rtz.
 
Incon via not reaching 24 hours in the fight ever lol, technically this means that Giorno loses by default because the fight has to go on for a long time for it to be incon and since the fight only starts when he runs out of stamina...
 
What? RTZ doesnt take stamina, it aint even Giorno who does it, it's GER. And Joker technially loses by default because he's incapable of harming his opponent in any concievable way. Both cant win, it's a inconclusive.
 
You sure about GER not having stamina, I mean he's a stand sure but he might drain Giorno's stamina? Also Giorno could win via life-force shenanigans no?
 
Chances are its incon with ger dominating the fight by nulling everything but is too weak physically to harm ren
 
Well injecting life-force is a thing, I know it's out of character but I assume rather that than an infinite loop if Giorno were given the choice:
 
This match has been made several times, hasn't it? This seems unnecessary.
 
Greenshifter said:
You sure about GER not having stamina, I mean he's a stand sure but he might drain Giorno's stamina? Also Giorno could win via life-force shenanigans no?
Click to expand...
Stands in general dont have Stamina. I actually cant think of a single time where a Stand has shown Stamina unless the user's stamina was compromised. Plus GER can literally instantly heal Giorno/ Stamina and all so it doesnt matter.

>injecting life-force is a thing

I mean so is damage reflection.
 
Is that all? If so, then nothing really changes either way then. This match would still be pretty redundant, right?
 
idk, Giorno has two ways to kill. Aging Ren to death or having him hit something then having the damage deflect back killing him. Both of those bypass ap and one is contact based and the other is automatic if Joker harms any of the animals.

GER having causality manip could also prevent any abilities that would circumvent Joker negating any of those.

The issue is would Giorno do those given one is out of character and the other isnt, but kinda relies on Joker to hit a thing.
 
I mean

As far as I'm aware, Joker physically can't win here due to not being able to bypass GER.

So if you're arguing that Giorno also can't win, then the match is redundant.

And if you're arguing that Giorno can in fact win, then it's a stomp.

Either way the match should be closed, but I just want to be sure on that point before doing so. Joker doesn't have any win-cons here, does he?
 
>As far as I'm aware, Joker physically can't win here due to not being able to bypass GER.

You realize there's two rounds right?

>So if you're arguing that Giorno also can't win, then the match is redundant.

No, that'd be an inconclusive like literally every GER match ever. Yeah maybe it is in fact redundant but it's still an inconclusive by literal definition on the page for it.

>And if you're arguing that Giorno can in fact win, then it's a stomp.

Depends on if he does or doesnt do it, it's a bit out of character.

>Joker doesn't have any win-cons here, does he?

He could breathe and kill Giorno in both scenarios, issue is could Giorno avoid him and gimp in round 1? And in round 2, doubt he can instakill Giorno before GER goes muda but hard to say GER can kill or defeat Joker too.
 
I see. My bad then. The match should be fine, I guess?
 
idk if it is, you could be right. It's why I wanna figure out if Giorno could or would use his aging or damage deflect hax first.

It is bordering on a mismatch either way (not a stomp, just a mismatch despite the paralle;s between em) but may as well discuss it for a bit before deciding if it really is first.
 
Joker resists far more potent Life Manip than what Giorno can dish out, and seeing as all of base GE's hax is based on Life Manip, it's useless.
 
Does GER reset both Giorno's and Joker's thoughts?

If yes then this is an incon since Stands apparently have no stamina.

If it's only Joker's thoughts then Giorno will probably go crazy by all the looping and pull out his out of character hax and due to the nature of the loop, eventually Giorno will win via those hax but it's a stomp since Joker has no ways to win.

Edit: Well Giorno gives Joker life-force instead of taking it but if that comes down to the same thing then yeah incon in both scenario's.
 
>GER

Yes, but technically no. Depends on how wide-scale the RTZ GER performs. But we only evr see him do it like, three times. We know he can RTZ specific things and not everything at once (as such Giorno would keep his thoughts but his opponent may not depending on what was rtz) but it's hard to say how much precision GER actually has because we only see like 3 examples of rtz in action.

>Life Manip resist.

Does Joker resist his life force being taken away? Or can he resist himself being given extra? It's actually a huge difference.
 
He resists Life Manip that forces the target to age several dozen years in an instant. Whether that's giving or taking is up there, but the effect is the same as what Giorno is trying.

And if I remember correctly, GE's punches makes the target perceive time slower by driving the senses haywire. That just serves to buff Joker, because his Cognition would make what he perceives real, and he'd start actually moving at the speeds he's perceiving time at. He'd then blitz Giorno no issue.

Round 1 goes to Joker. Round 2 is Incon as usual.
 
WOAAAAAAAAH WE'RE GOING TO WIIIIIIIIN
Gerba

Giorno wins via will hax, animal creation (which joker doesnt have a clue about) and Return to Zero.
 
Also round 1 is tricky depending on the speeds, since Giorno can still trick Joker into killing one of his animal biddies. Round 2 is a speed stomp for Giorno's skills.
 
>And if I remember correctly, GE's punches makes the target perceive time slower by driving the senses haywire. That just serves to buff Joker, because his Cognition would make what he perceives real, and he'd start actually moving at the speeds he's perceiving time at. He'd then blitz Giorno no issue.

That's actually selective, Giorno just straight up stops doing that after it backfired and almost got him killed against Black Sabbath.

>He resists Life Manip that forces the target to age several dozen years in an instant. Whether that's giving or taking is up there, but the effect is the same as what Giorno is trying.

What's the description of the ability, that matters greatly on if he's gonna resist it. Given Giorno does it by pumping so much life energy into a target it basically makes them live out all that life in seconds.

>Round 1 goes to Joker. Round 2 is Incon as usual.

Wouldnt be so sure on the latter, it aint like GER lost his animal powers, of which they have automatic damage deflection.

Also just noticed but speed aint equal. So atm it's a speed blitz for Giorno on both accounts till speed gets equal if Op decides that.
 
There's no such thing as "types" concerning Life Manip. Resisting it means resisting the actual manipulation of life force. It doesn't matter what the manipulation is meant to achieve. So no, be it damage transfer or life injection, Joker shrugs it off, since everything GE does is derived from his Life Manip.

Speed equalization is pointless, too. In both rounds, Giorno can't hope to scratch Ren, while Ren one-shots with a thought. Only RTZ is keeping things at Incon for R2.
 
What the ****. The animal creation was never stated to depend on life manip, but on just the foe killing the animal or not.
 
>There's no such thing as "types" concerning Life Manip. Resisting it means resisting the actual manipulation of life force. It doesn't matter what the manipulation is meant to achieve. So no, be it damage transfer or life injection.

No offense but you're wrong, like to the point your matter of fact tone regarding it comes off as borderline ignorant. Nobody said anything about "types" to begin with, only what does Joker actually resist, because guess what? Resisting say life drain doesnt mean you resist the exact opposite. And resisting an ability doesnt mean you resist every single application of that ability too. Does Ren only resist the manipulation of his life force for example? If so that doesnt stop GE from overdosing him as he aint manipulating Ren's life force to begin with. Hell here's a analogy, resisting mind removal but not resisting mind control, both are mind hax but are you gonna tell resisting one means you can resist both? No, because you'd be wrong. Not to mention I dont see resistance to Life manipulation or Age manipulation on his profile.

>Joker shrugs it off, since everything GE does is derived from his Life Manip.

Except, ya know, damage deflection, which isnt even him doing it and is a automatic trait his animals have that dont involve the manipulation of life energy.

Anyway, what does Joker actually resist? Dont say life manip as a whole, because you'd be wrong, does Ren resist being pumpd full of so much life energy he physically exhausts his life out?

>Speed equalization is pointless, too. In both rounds, Giorno can't hope to scratch Ren, while Ren one-shots with a thought. Only RTZ is keeping things at Incon for R2.

If you dont think speed equal is needed, fine, just dont forgot you said it was pointless and not needed..

But anyway, given speed aint equal and is apparently not needed, GE just uses his massive 231221.020093x advantage in speed to place an insect directly in the path of his attack or like under his shoe and have him instagimp himself. Or just pumps him full of life energy to age him to death with his huge speed comparatively given Ren doesnt resist.
 
Well then clearly I was wrong in how GE's work. My bad.

In that case speed needs to be equalized for this to be fair.
 
i have a question on the damage reflection, how does it work? havent seen part 5 yet so please explain it to me

also joker has the ability to resist an insta kill. and he reflects physical attacks as well and these are done passively, so i dont think RTZ could work. feel free to correct me if im wrong btw
 
It just works. Not even joking, no details are given on the mechanics, it's kinda forgotton early on in the part. All that we know is if you attack or damage one of his organisms, the damage that you would have inflicted is instead instantly applied to the attacker and the organism takes no damage. Even works on abilities like grav manip where using grav manip on a organism, the grav manip is instead applied to the attacker by their own ability.

Canon GER doesnt use insta kill so not really a issue. Giorno probably wont be using his fists in this match tbh so that reflection aint helpful. RTZ is causality manipulation, and it's technically instantaneous. So rtz would work fine given Joker has no counter to RTZ. Although tbh I forget what my point even was.
 
ok then. about RTZ, when i asked a friend about it he referred to it as returning an action to 0. so thats why i ask if passive things can be affected by it. still thanks for the info
 
I mean, maybe? He should be able to, and if not, he most certainly can RTZ the effects of the passive ability in general or even just on Giorno himself. Such as, Giorno does a attack, it reflects back onto him, the damage Giorno recieved from that deflection is RTZ'd rendering it moot.
 
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