Removing "Possibly" Speed of Light from Mifune (Naruto)

[Nierre]

This should be simple but ya tú sabes.

Currently, Mifune scales to possibly Speed of Light attack speed with Issen due to this CRT.

You can read it for yourself but TL;DR the reason why it was accepted as possibly is because the Databook entry that describes the attack showcases Mifune using Issen with the Kyuubi cloak Naruto had dawned on him in the War. Due to this, it was unclear to the users in that CRT whether or not Mifune would scale to Light Speed in base or amped with the cloak. The confusion comes from the image used for the Issen excerpt showing Mifune dawning the cloak.

However, if you take a look at the translation given to us by our Staff Translator Qliphoth, you'll see that it's a very straightforward translation referring to base Mifune and not the cloak:

"光速の一刀は飛ぶ斬撃となって、敵を襲う! 名刀黒澤とミフネの剣技が合致した一撃!!
The light-speed sword becomes a soaring slash to strike down the enemy! A strike that combines the Meito Kurosawa with Mifune's swordsmanship!!
光速 here literally means speed of light (I call it lightspeed but does it really make a difference?). This part has the actual kanji while the Lariat technique of Bee and A's just says they charge with speeds like light/light-like speeds."

Nowhere in the translation does it mention that it's due to Kurama's amp that Mifune has a light speed sword that then becomes a soaring slash. The text gives credit to the sword itself, the Meito Kurosawa, and Mifune's swordsmanship. It's due to his sword and sword skills that Issen is SOL. We've never seen Mifune use Issen outside the cloak so obviously the text is going to refer to the only time Mifune has used it, that being when he attacked the Juubi (with the cloak), but as I said, the translation doesnt give reason for the SOL Issen to Kurama, but solely to Mifune.

So his speed rating should look something like, "At least Massively Hypersonic+ (Able to fight against Sasuke), Speed of Light attack speed with Issen (The Naruto databook states that Issen combines the Meito Kurosawa, a light-speed sword, and his swordsmanship, which allows him to release a soaring slash from his blade)"

 

[ssgengar]

Lmao you wasted no time with this one

Obviously I agree

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Holy sh*t that was fast

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I disagree. The technique combining things Mifune has himself doesn't exclude the amp helping him achieve that level. It's literally a caption pointing at KM0 Mifune's sword slash, calling THAT light speed. And the statement is calling the slash itself the speed of light, noting that the technique makes that LS slash fly. So if it's upgrading Base Mifune's Issen, it should be upgrading Base Mifune in general, and thus half the relevant cast (which is inconsistent with other light speed statements for faster characters). I know you mentioned safe assumptions, but there's no assumptions here. The statement is blatantly talking about his combat speed first. I would agree that KM0 Mifune has LS combat speed though.

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

From mother to daughter is crazy
Anyway light speed in Naruto is just like light speed in Black Clover

 

[Iabihs]

Base mifune should still be able to perform Issen , otherwise this technique description isnt describing the technique hes used his whole life and instaed just this one time....

i agree for now

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

From mother to daughter is crazy
Anyway light speed in Naruto is just like light speed in Black Clover

No, that would be like shibai getting tagged by chocho's light speed attack (god I hope that doesnt actually happen)

anyways I'm gonna be neutral
sparkle does make good points the wiki generally holds things in a conservative manner so giving a full on rating would be a bit assumptive
but then again it makes no sense to call it a beam of light for it to not be LS until its amped by kurama

 

[Nierre]

I disagree. The technique combining things Mifune has himself doesn't exclude the amp helping him achieve that level. It's literally a caption pointing at KM0 Mifune's sword slash, calling THAT light speed. And the statement is calling the slash itself the speed of light, noting that the technique makes that LS slash fly. So if it's upgrading Base Mifune's Issen, it should be upgrading Base Mifune in general, and thus half the relevant cast (which is inconsistent with other light speed statements for faster characters). I know you mentioned safe assumptions, but there's no assumptions here. The statement is blatantly talking about his combat speed first. I would agree that KM0 Mifune has LS combat speed though.

Issen is a two step process. It starts when Mifune coats his sword in chakra and then releases it out as a chakra wave. When he fought Sasuke he was not using Issen, he was just coating his blade in chakra, just like Sasuke does with Raiton.

Mifune has only done Issen once, that being when he used it against the Juubi with the cloak. The text itself doesn't even MENTION the amp he got from Kurama because the text is talking about the technique itself. The text doesnt support the picture, the picture supports the text. The text describes what Issen is and how it works, then the picture shows you what it looks like.

Text says Issen makes a light speed slash -> Image showcases when it was used -> KM0 Mifune using it against Juubi (which is the only time he's ever used it)

 

[Damage3245]

No, that would be like shibai getting tagged by chocho's light speed attack (god I hope that doesnt actually happen)

anyways I'm gonna be neutral
sparkle does make good points the wiki generally holds things in a conservative manner so giving a full on rating would be a bit assumptive
but then again it makes no sense to call it a beam of light for it to not be LS until its amped by kurama

Technique names are not always literal. It's not really a beam, it's a projectile slash. And it's not made of light, it's made of chakra.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Technique names are not always literal. It's not really a beam, it's a projectile slash. And it's not made of light, it's made of chakra.

in general sure you can dismiss it even if it says light beam but it later on getting the light speed statement made me think they may have been correlated

 

[ssgengar]

It's literally a caption pointing at KM0 Mifune's sword slash

I really don’t get this point, KM Mifune is being pointed to because that’s the only time we ever see him use it

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Issen is a two step process. It starts when Mifune coats his sword in chakra and then releases it out as a chakra wave. When he fought Sasuke he was not using Issen, he was just coating his blade in chakra, just like Sasuke does with Raiton.

I agree. But that's not attacking my point. His sword slash coated with chakra by itself is light speed, it becomes Issen when he releases it out as a chakra wave.

Mifune has only done Issen once, that being when he used it against the Juubi with the cloak. The text itself doesn't even MENTION the amp he got from Kurama because the text is talking about the technique itself. The text doesnt support the picture, the picture supports the text. The text describes what Issen is and how it works, then the picture shows you what it looks like.

They're both supporting each other. A statement calling an attack light speed isn't pointing at the usage of the technique being FTL, that just doesn't make sense.

I really don’t get this point, KM Mifune is being pointed to because that’s the only time we ever see him use it

And maybe that's for a reason.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Regarding the name thing that Damage and Ghost are discussing, it could be that this technique evolved to being called Beam of Light thanks to Kurama's chakra which made him LS (it's not unheard of for technique names to be made up mid combat), and that Mifune was just using a regular chakra sword projectile before like his fellow samurai did (which mechanically seems to be the exact same technique, just obviously weaker/slower).

 

[ssgengar]

And maybe that's for a reason.

That reason being

 

[MinatoSparkle]

That reason being

That his sword slash projectile isn't light speed in base

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

That his sword slash projectile isn't light speed in base

We don't even have a key for him with the Chakra buff regardless so why wouldn't it be?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Ngl

the current rating seems perfect
there's chances that his base speeds are actually light but his only amped form is the only one that's left irrefutably confirmable in being light speed
so the possibly rating makes sense to me

 

[Stryker861]

I'm not really seeing the counter-arguments personally. I think it makes much more sense for the technique to be inherently as fast as we are told it is. Nothing in that translation attributes its speed to the cloak at all and I think it takes more mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that mifune couldn't use issen without a cloak for whatever reason (mifunes showings are already limited anyway so I don't really get that point).
That's just my 2 cents

 

[MinatoSparkle]

We don't even have a key for him with the Chakra buff regardless so why wouldn't it be?

Uhhhhhhhhhh Naruto doesn't adhere to VSBW profiles so I don't get how that's relevant?

I think it takes more mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that mifune couldn't use issen without a cloak for whatever reason

He clearly can use the flying slashes as lesser samurai can, there's just no concrete evidence that those slashes are light speed in base

Regarding the name thing that Damage and Ghost are discussing, it could be that this technique evolved to being called Beam of Light thanks to Kurama's chakra which made him LS (it's not unheard of for technique names to be made up mid combat), and that Mifune was just using a regular chakra sword projectile before like his fellow samurai did (which mechanically seems to be the exact same technique, just obviously weaker/slower).

 

[Godernet]

Imma just tackle this part of the argument since I always thought it was a bad argument.

It's not talking about KN0 Mifune

For one, the statement's context is a Databook Entry describing Mifune's Issen Sword Technique, not an entry describing this specific instance in which it was used.

That distinction is pretty important here.

Statement: "The light-speed sword becomes a soaring slash to strike down the enemy! A strike that combines the Meito Kurosawa with Mifune's swordsmanship!!"

The statement describes this light speed sword slash as a strike that combines Mifune's swordsmanship with his Meito Kurosawa Katana.

The only argument that justifies it being due to KN0 is that KN0 Mifune was the picture that was used, however:

• There's 0 statements, implication, or evidence of that being the case.
• The panel used was the only time Mifune used Issen onscreen to visually show Databook readers the user being described using the jutsu being referred to.
• The Statement already breaks down the jutsu mechanically in that it's a product of the sword and Mifune's Swordsmanship and not at all a tribute to a temporary amp (Swordsmanship in Naruto already accounts for chakra usage as their physical and mental energies are required to perform any superhuman mechanics so none of that "it didn't account for Chakra tho").
• As I said above the Jutsu Databooks are informative pieces meant to give broad understanding of the mechanics and usage of certain abilities, not describing specific instances when they were used.

I don't know why a jutsu would be given a speed in a general explanation of its mechanics if it was referring to a speed it can only achieve through a one time amp by an individual completely irrelevant to a databook entry on the Issen ability, especially when the summary talking about it never mentions the Kyuubi's chakra and only attributing Mifune's skill and sword to the ability.

With all do respect it's a pretty disingenuous argument when you lay out the context.

 

[KingogKings777]

Agree I guess? Not like anyone is going to scale to it iirc.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Agree I guess? Not like anyone is going to scale to it iirc.

We already have people scaling to it, just look at Killer B and KCM2 Naruto.

 

[ssgengar]

That his sword slash projectile isn't light speed in base

Ok but using the databook photo isn’t a good supporting argument for that

 

[MinatoSparkle]

For one, the statement's context is a Databook Entry describing Mifune's Issen Sword Technique, not an entry describing this specific instance in which it was used.

It's not a jutsu file, it's part of the Konoha One Hundred Leaves Collection

The only argument that justifies it being due to KN0 is that KN0 Mifune was the picture that was used,

-and the fact that characters not that much slower than Base Mifune are lightning speed and that much faster characters are only light speed

however:

• There's 0 statements, implication, or evidence of that being the case.
• The panel used was the only time Mifune used Issen onscreen to visually show Databook readers the user being described using the jutsu being referred to.
• The Statement already breaks down the jutsu mechanically in that it's a product of the sword and Mifune's Swordsmanship and not at all a tribute to a temporary amp (Swordsmanship in Naruto already accounts for chakra usage as their physical and mental energies are required to perform any superhuman mechanics so none of that "it didn't account for Chakra tho").

Something can attribute a feat to one thing while other things still help. For example, the databook says Yugito tormented Naruto/Bee with skills she developed in life, but even if you don't think she was statistically amped (which she definitely was), she was objectively aided in practicality by her dojutsu.

• As I said above the Jutsu Databooks are informative pieces meant to give broad understanding of the mechanics and usage of certain abilities, not describing specific instances when they were used.

This isn't even true of actual jutsu files though. There are absolutely times when they refer to specific instances of a jutsu being used, like when it talks about Ay's LCM catching up with Naruto and being on par with the Yellow Flash or when it talks about the explosion caused by KCM2 Naruto vs 5 Bijuu being able to destroy a village

Also by the logic that it's the jutsu in general that's LS, the fodder samurai who seem to use it should be LS as well.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Regardless of whether this gets accepted or not , people who scale to cloaked mifume would get a full on rating right? The possibly itself is for base mifume since there is contention if he can use it without a cloak.

Anyways I agree with the thread

 

[DavidTPPM]

Honestly the cloak isn't really necessarily an issue. We already know that chakra doesn't affect speed 1:1 which is why we reject things like 10% Jigen, 50% Naruto, 2x Momoshiki, etc as speed multipliers.
Saying Issen here must have been amped by the cloak kinda doesn't work as a debunk under these assumptions

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Chakra isn't accepted as proportionately amping AP and speed the same, but it is accepted as amping speed still

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Agree.

 

[Godernet]

It's not a jutsu file, it's part of the Konoha One Hundred Leaves Collection.

It's still taken from an excerpt created with the intent of describing the jutsu.

Which section it's in doesn't change what was trying to be conveyed.

and the fact that characters not that much slower than Base Mifune are lightning speed and that much faster characters are only light speed

Lightning Speed doesn't have a set speed like light does.

Lightning can be anywhere from MHS to SOL.

We default to a lower interpretation of lightning for the sake of indexing.

The lightning-speed characters you're referring to could very easily be Rel+ just without a scaling avenue currently that puts them there and it would not contradict lightning speed.

That's not an argument that proves or disproves anything.

Something can attribute a feat to one thing while other things still help. For example, the databook says Yugito tormented Naruto/Bee with skills she developed in life, but even if you don't think she was statistically amped (which she definitely was), she was objectively aided in practicality by her dojutsu.

Notice how in this databook statement, the text directly calls back to her instance of fighting against Naruto and the group, gives a brief statement of how she did it, and credits why she was able to do these things.

Meanwhile, the Issen statement is spoken generally, with no attention being drawn to a specific instance besides a manga panel of him firing it in which he happens to have the cloak.

This isn't even true of actual jutsu files though. There are absolutely times when they refer to specific instances of a jutsu being used, like when it talks about Ay's LCM catching up with Naruto and being on par with the Yellow Flash or when it talks about the explosion caused by KCM2 Naruto vs 5 Bijuu being able to destroy a village

that's fair

Also by the logic that it's the jutsu in general that's LS, the fodder samurai who seem to use it should be LS as well.

That wouldn't be the case either since it's specifically about Mifune's Issen.

Not every excerpt of something describing Sasuke's ability with Chidori will be things that Kakashi's Raikiri can also do, especially when it comes to single out a single person's skill.

The argument still hinges on a few people's interpretation of the author/editor's choice to insert a photo of Mifune using the jutsu with a cloak on.

when the reason is almost 100% it's the only time we see him fire it and they needed something to show visually what it looks like.

Meanwhile, the other side is just taking the statement verbatim without adding additional interpretations with 0 backing.

Saying that "those that are arguing the statement is referring to instance in the picture is also an interpretation so it's equal interpretation is also wrong.

Team Possibly

• You have to assume this panel of Mifune was added to specifically remind readers that the description of Issen being referred to in the statement only applies to his usage of it in the War Arc.
• You also have to assume that everything that applies in the statement is only in reference to what Mifune can do with the technique when shrouded in Kyuubi Chakra.
• You have to say that a Kyuubi Chakra cloak made Mifune's Issen massively faster when his cloaks didn't make anyone else that got one much faster, if at all faster.
• You have to assume that the statement not referencing Naruto's contribution to Mifune's Jutsu is an oversight.

Team Solid Rating

• Read the statement verbatim.
• Assume that the panel is just for visuals and doesn't massively affect the context of the statement when nothing else presented indicates that.

This chakra cloak argument that people have been pushing till now just isn't a good one at all.

We would absolutely tear into this kind of assumptive argument if similar logic was used to try and upgrade someone.

We don't need to create scrutiny just for the sake of argumentation.

Side Note: Even if this chakra cloak argument doesn't get solved there shouldn't be a possibly rating because of it, Base Mifune's Issen should just downscale to Rel+

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

follow

 

[DavidTPPM]

Chakra isn't accepted as proportionately amping AP and speed the same, but it is accepted as amping speed still

It's really case specific. We accept Naruto clones being relative to the user despite splitting his chakra. If Naruto can stay at relatively similar speed and strength while having 1/1000 of his chakra then there's no reason to assume Mifunes sword strikes speed would be amped by a kyubi cloak.

Basically saying that while chakra CAN affect speed it doesn't NEED to affect speed (or can affect it in an insignificant way)

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It's still taken from an excerpt created with the intent of describing the jutsu.

Sure I agree, but at the same time, captions that are pointing to an image are quite consistently used to describe that specific moment, whether in reference to a character or jutsu. If the purpose was just for Mifune to have an exclusive jutsu that's light speed and that applies to himself normally, a mini jutsu file with a description not specifically tied to the image of him using it would make more sense.

Which section it's in doesn't change what was trying to be conveyed.

Lightning Speed doesn't have a set speed like light does.

Lightning can be anywhere from MHS to SOL.

We default to a lower interpretation of lightning for the sake of indexing.

The lightning-speed characters you're referring to could very easily be Rel+ just without a scaling avenue currently that puts them there and it would not contradict lightning speed.

Kishimoto clearly doesn't think of lightning as that fast.

That's not an argument that proves or disproves anything.

The Light Speed statement problem exists regardless

Notice how in this databook statement, the text directly calls back to her instance of fighting against Naruto and the group, gives a brief statement of how she did it, and credits why she was able to do these things.

Meanwhile, the Issen statement is spoken generally, with no attention being drawn to a specific instance besides a manga panel of him firing it in which he happens to have the cloak.

That's kind of missing the point. I'm saying that Yugito's entry doesn't mention some aspects of why she performed well against Naruto despite listing others. Just like the Issen statement.

that's fair

That wouldn't be the case either since it's specifically about Mifune's Issen.

Not every excerpt of something describing Sasuke's ability with Chidori will be things that Kakashi's Raikiri can also do, especially when it comes to single out a single person's skill.

The argument still hinges on a few people's interpretation of the author/editor's choice to insert a photo of Mifune using the jutsu with a cloak on.

when the reason is almost 100% it's the only time we see him fire it and they needed something to show visually what it looks like.

Meanwhile, the other side is just taking the statement verbatim without adding additional interpretations with 0 backing.

Saying that "those that are arguing the statement is referring to instance in the picture is also an interpretation so it's equal interpretation is also wrong.

Team Possibly

• You have to assume this panel of Mifune was added to specifically remind readers that the description of Issen being referred to in the statement only applies to his usage of it in the War Arc.
• You also have to assume that everything that applies in the statement is only in reference to what Mifune can do with the technique when shrouded in Kyuubi Chakra.
• You have to say that a Kyuubi Chakra cloak made Mifune's Issen massively faster when his cloaks didn't make anyone else that got one much faster, if at all faster.
• You have to assume that the statement not referencing Naruto's contribution to Mifune's Jutsu is an oversight.

Team Solid Rating

• Read the statement verbatim.
• Assume that the panel is just for visuals and doesn't massively affect the context of the statement when nothing else presented indicates that.

This chakra cloak argument that people have been pushing till now just isn't a good one at all.

We would absolutely tear into this kind of assumptive argument if similar logic was used to try and upgrade someone.

We don't need to create scrutiny just for the sake of argumentation.

Just listing more points doesn't make it a more assumptive argument overall (notwithstanding the points themselves, which I disagree with in regards to the 2nd and 3rd "team possibly" points). Taking the caption pointing at a specific instance and saying that the caption refers to the version in the image is simply common sense. That's literally what the point of captions are, being a description of the image. If the intent was truly for Base Mifune to be that fast, there's multiple easy ways to solve the image problem. Simple example: "Mifune's light speed slash that turns into a flying slash! With the power of the Nine Tails, it flies even faster!"

Side Note: Even if this chakra cloak argument doesn't get solved there shouldn't be a possibly rating because of it, Base Mifune's Issen should just downscale to Rel+

Why's the assumption that the cloak gives less than a 2x speed boost?

It's really case specific. We accept Naruto clones being relative to the user despite splitting his chakra.

Rare situation, in a vast majority of cases chakra level is accepted as correlating to speed

If Naruto can stay at relatively similar speed and strength while having 1/1000 of his chakra then there's no reason to assume Mifunes sword strikes speed would be amped by a kyubi cloak.

Basically saying that while chakra CAN affect speed it doesn't NEED to affect speed (or can affect it in an insignificant way)

I'm pretty sure that in every profile in the Narutoverse that's even slightly up to date, when characters get a chakra amp, their profile says they're faster, even if unquantifiably.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

@Godernet Also if you plan to respond, can you wait a little while? I want to look into something related to the subject to add onto this but didn't have time today and wanted to at least address your points first.