• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
2,024
1,410
So when reading over the content revision of the DC Cosmology for the most part I agree.

I couldn't help but notice that the Endless has separate keys for what appears to be their “True Extent.”

Which left me a bit perplexed given the idea of the Endless was always one and the same. So the idea behind this was that or at least what I assume comes from the Void to how it treats time differently than is given.

The Void is separated by distance and not Time

The problem with this claim happens to notion around one idea.
It's important to note that are three Creations in the Void, those of the Presence, Lucifer and Elaine Belloc,[107] which were later combined by Elaine when she replaced the Presence. There is only one Creation present and after it ends, a new "version" will rise therefore any other Creations seen in the Void are basically just versions of the same Creation as time has no real meaning in the Void, they all exist simultaneously, as seen when Lucifer flew into the Void with different versions of himself. This is why Lucifer said that in the Void it does not matter whether the Silk Man comes from a Creation before or after that of the Presence.
This claim has some issues. It not saying it doesn't matter whether or not Silkman came before or after Yahweh because all Creation is a variation of another. It's just implying why the Void is only specifics that come from a distance and not Time.

This is important because Time is this is only referring to history not necessarily the entire concept of it.

Such examples are that Michael and Lucifer were created before Creation having been tested by Yahweh Time before Time.

Yahweh testing Michael and Lucifer Time before Time

This could be tested due to the fact Carey has a bizarre way of writing. However, it was clear Yahweh Creation or in this case, now Elaine is not the set Creation which is a variant of other Creations.

This is why it's implied whether or not it came before. When beings like the Jin En Mok came before in a Creation that was not exactly like Yahweh until dreams replaced Yahweh as the Godhead. Since all Creation exist in the Void simultaneously because is no Time to operate what period they come in, it's easy to imply that Endless should naturally always be the same.


It's easier to imply that the Endless should just be “True Extent” as always. This is why Lucifer worded his words like that to make sure they can be applied same way.

He tells us whether or not it came before Yahweh or not is futile, yet if you reverse the wording whether Yahweh's Creation came before this is futile. Meaning each Creation made only Yahweh shouldn't affect others because each Creation will be applied the same logic, this is because Lucifer is Yahweh's Creation, if it were anyone else from different Creation the same manner of logic applies.

He has made thousands before he made Lucifer and Michael to do it, each of these Creations having the same pattern that never work out because he crafted them the same way.
Each Creation rejected in the Mansion created by Yahweh had the same pattern because they are all built the same

It's never implied that other Creation that Yahweh has made were of the same simply because the Void is not of Time. The key here is if we only use Yahweh Creation or else every Creation not of Yahweh could be viewed the same since none of them truly predate each other but there's is a epoch of stages before each one, it's just doesn't matter in the end.

So we shouldn't have separate keys because
  1. It makes no sense
  2. It goes against what the comics say due to the interpretation of the text
  3. It doesn't align with how the Void and the Creation within it works.
I recommend just keep one key for the Endless. 1-A is fine.
 
Last edited:
I will ask our project members for input here.
 
I dont understand how the content of the post addresses the Endless in terms of whether or not they have a true extent.
The point that I argued for is “True Extent” is not a necessary key and dismiss the whole idea the Endless are what they are.
 
Are we arguing whether or not they have a higher abstract form?
I think the best way to do it has to due with the nature of the Endless.

For example it’s pretty common in Vertigo to link powers or function with the name.

Samael Morningstar is the Will of God and can manipulate Creation but that’s because he is the Morningstar. Without the govern power his just known as Samael or Lucifer.
Morningstar is the Lightbringer Power

The Lightbringer power is used to manipulate Creation without it Lucifer can only due to whatever Will he can conjure up


Like how Michael is the Demiurgos because he has the Dunamis Demiurgos acting on behalf as God’s Unlimited Power.

In these instance we get the idea that their last name are not their surname, they are referred to as such because of their power. In the case for Endless.

Technically speaking anyone can be Dream or whatever they desire but the Endless part is referenced to how their function reach.

Morpheus is a Dream as is Daniel because of this, they are part of the family in one Creation. In other Creation, they are also other Dreams but they all have one thing in common, they are of the Endless.

This I recommend a key that leans more so toward like:

POV(anything but please don't use True Extent because the Endless always are the Endless.) | Endless.

The Endless part is referring to the function and Dream or Death is the idea, and as we know the Endless are anthropomorphic ideas. True Extent does not sound right nor is how we should imagine them as. As every Dream is of the Endless. There's no real True Extent they just are what they are, Endless in what they represent, making a separate key is not only illogical but just doesn't sound right.

That's why Destruction is just Destruction and not of the Endless after he relinquished his role.
 
Last edited:
I understand the premise, I don't understand your post. Why are we talking about Lucifer, the Void, and Silkman?
Has to do with the fact during the later issues from #68-73 when Elaine was left in charge that Vertigo has 3 Creation. Until of course Elaine merged the absence of space to push all the Creation into one.

The reason for separating the keys was because of this. Due to the fact they think Yahweh’s Creation is the same with every variation of Creation this everything that came after is molded by it, hence why the Endless has 2 separate keys. This makes no sense because despite it Time has no meaning in the void and every Creation exist as they do, so why separate the two roles when there should only really be one key?

They're using that logic to make the separate keys and I replied to another guy that explains why they shouldn't do a “True Extent” key you can read it for further context in a smarter way that does not undermine the actual intention of the Endless.
 
Hey man, we've had positive interactions on Discord and such, and the last thing I want to do is give you the impression of being disrespectful or rude, but sincerely, I just don't understand what you're really trying to say. I've read your post and reply a few times and I just feel lost. I don't know if I agree or disagree because I can't follow the argument.
 
Hey man, we've had positive interactions on Discord and such, and the last thing I want to do is give you the impression of being disrespectful or rude, but sincerely, I just don't understand what you're really trying to say. I've read your post and reply a few times and I just feel lost. I don't know if I agree or disagree because I can't follow the argument.
There's nothing rude, I'm just saying having True Extent is not necessary.

Why it doesn't make sense?

The Endless are what they are and encompass their concept to the full extent. For example, Morpheus is Dream, and when Daniel replaced him he didn't become a new Dream, he just became Dream and remember everything Morpheus knew as Dream Lord.

When Morpheus saw all the different Dreams from different Creations, they all function as he does but they all are of the Endless. True Extent is notioning towards the idea there is one Dream above all or just an entirety of the concept despite each Creation having that concept as its full abstractfication.

I'm leaning towards an idea more like this:

Dream(You can place anything for this key) | Endless
If not it makes more sense to just have Endless as just the only key.

Why I mentioned the Void:
This statement was the basis under why the Endless has separate keys:
It's important to note that are three Creations in the Void, those of the Presence, Lucifer and Elaine Belloc,[107] which were later combined by Elaine when she replaced the Presence. There is only one Creation present and after it ends, a new "version" will rise therefore any other Creations seen in the Void are basically just versions of the same Creation as time has no real meaning in the Void, they all exist simultaneously, as seen when Lucifer flew into the Void with different versions of himself. This is why Lucifer said that in the Void it does not matter whether the Silk Man comes from a Creation before or after that of the Presence.
It saying every Creation is separated by distance and not Time as to explain why it's not important that some things came before Yahweh.

However it can be applied to another logic, if Lucifer were from a different Creation and let's say his Creator name was Bob, we could say it wouldn't matter if this Creation before Bob. This means every Creation is existing at the same time, each earlier Creation before Yahweh would die and reborn into a different version repeated infinitely. Elaine's Creation time wasn't up yet Lucifer see multiple Creation at once, this may to due the fact the Void has no history but it easy to see each variation of Creation is from another not just from Yahweh. Due to this there shouldn't be a key to explain a True Extent of the Endless to whom exist in every Creation as the same concept just with a different POV, that's why the key is unnecessary.
 
@Deagonx

After re-reading the post, I understand what he is referring to. This section of the blog.


It would be best if the OP broke down their proposal piece by piece about the original blog paragraph.

Also, shouldn't specific tiering be reserved for a later thread? We're still deciding on the splits.
 
@Deagonx

After re-reading the post, I understand what he is referring to. This section of the blog.


It would be best if the OP broke down their proposal piece by piece about the original blog paragraph.

Also, shouldn't specific tiering be reserved for a later thread? We're still deciding on the splits.
Although I disagree with separate keys. If we were to use it then, I would use these keys:

POV | Endless

We could change the name to something a little more generic than just POV. “True Extent” just in short doesn't make sense.
 
Back
Top