Removal of Healer (Redo of Healer) STAFF ONLY

[KingNanaya]

Long story short, Redo of Healer should be removed. there are several reasons why. The first being thatthe entire series revolves around rape. looking at the tags, every episode except the first has rape. and it's not like these are short scenes either. the first episode's scene is roughly a minute and a half. In the second episode has 2, one also for about a minute and a half and the other for about 6 minutes. the third episode has one that's over 5 minutes long (technically split into 2 parts), and the third episode has 2 of similar length to the past 2. every episode is like this. almost fully uncensored. The second reason is the actual plot of the series:

"Healing magicians cannot fight alone." Keyaru, who was bound by this common knowledge, was exploited again and again by others.

But one day, he noticed what lay beyond healing magic, and was convinced that a healing magician was the strongest class. However, by the time he realized that potential, he was deprived of everything. Thus, he used healing magic on the world itself to go back four years, deciding to redo everything.

This is a heroic tale of one healing magician who became the strongest by using knowledge from his past life and healing magic.

I'm gonna put the description of it in the spoiler thing

Spoiler: Series description. VERY EXPLICIT AND DARK

The "exploited by others" thing was because he was drugged and raped until he was addicted to drugs of various kinds this went on for 4 whole years, and this happened to him at 14. he goes back in time to get revenge on those that wronged him. murder, rape, and torture are among these, all of which is shown on screen, almost completely uncensored.

again, these are not one time things. this is every episode. and from what I've seen, there aren't really any notable feats for the verse. There's only one profile, and personally, and I don't think it's all that.

Last thing is, it's very obviously level 4:

Verses that have high sexual content as the main focus of the material. Such verses are pornographic in nature and strictly unsuitable for the wiki. The majority of the media content is sexual for verses that fall under this rating.

the sexual content is very high, and the main focus of the series. the majority of the content from the verse is very sexual. It is not something that should be allowed at all on the wiki.

Agree: @Mr._Bambu
Disagree: @Armorchompy @Deagonx @FinePoint
Neutral: @DarkDragonMedeus @Antvasima

 

[Deagonx]

It's only watchable on certain cites that host ****

According to JustWatch, it's also available on HIDIVE for streaming, so it appears it isn't literally a hentai.

 

[KingNanaya]

According to JustWatch, it's also available on HIDIVE for streaming, so it appears it isn't literally a hentai.

I didn't notice that. I can remove that point.

edit: I've removed that pard

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I will state beforehand that I do believe the verse falls into Category 4 of our acceptable content rating, though it is more tenuous than other verses since the intent seems muddied- most people try to argue it is just overly edgy (and horrible) and not intended as ****. I disagree, but it is a greyer area.

Now. This has been discussed before, but it was two years ago so I suppose a new discussion may exist. I don't intend to take a strong part in this because I believe it will boil down to the same arguments- "it isn't ****, it's just very very much like ****". I will, though, call the staff members who spoke on it before (those who are still active at least).

@Moritzva @CrimsonStarFallen @FinePoint @AKM sama (lol) @Antvasima

 

[Phoenks]

The first being that it has a 12 episode anime adaptation that is on some certain cites that I'm likely not allowed to talk about.

The 12 episode anime is not really any more erotic than other ecchis, though. It's not a hentai.

And it is available on Amazon Prime Video. I just checked.

The second reason is that the entire series revolves around rape.

The entire series revolves around revenge, not rape.

The second reason is that the entire series revolves around rape. looking at the tags, every episode except the first has rape. and it's not like these are short scenes either. the first episode's scene is roughly a minute and a half. In the second episode has 2, one also for about a minute and a half and the other for about 6 minutes. the third episode has one that's over 5 minutes long (technically split into 2 parts), and the third episode has 2 of similar length to the past 2.

They are censored, not uncensored. And you are acting like American shows and other ecchi mangas/animes don't also have a lot of sex scenes in the same way.

The "exploited by others" thing was because he was drugged and raped until he was addicted to drugs of various kinds this went on for 4 whole years, and this happened to him at 14. he goes back in time to get revenge on those that wronged him. murder, rape, and torture are among these, all of which is shown on screen, almost completely uncensored.

Okay? Why does him having an edgy and tragic backstory provide a reason for the verse's removal? Gut's also gets raped as a child in his backstory. And that is shown to us "almost completely uncensored" in the manga.

the sexual content is very high, and the main focus of the series. It's only watchable on certain cites that host ****. the majority of the content from the verse is very sexual. It is not something that should be allowed at all on the wiki.

It isn't the main focus, again. It isn't ****. It's a revenge series where the main character is an edgy bastard. The main point of the series is Keyaru getting revenge against those that did him dirty prior to his reversal of time. He doesn't always rape people, either.

I'd also like to mention that most of this seems to be points regarding the anime, when the source material is a novel.

 

[Deagonx]

when the source material is a novel.

This is actually a pretty crucial point. I had assumed it was originally a manga, but upon review it appears the source material is a novel, and the manga/anime are adaptations of the novel.

 

[ImmortalDread]

the sexual content is very high

I have permission from @Mr._Bambu

This is false.

I have watched the entire series by myself. There is approx. only 1 minute per episode from 20 to 25 minutes. In no way “it is very high” as much as the invalidity of the claim of “focus of the series". At the beginning it was a bit high due to introduction of his past which in fact was disgusting.

Besides, there is censored and non-censored version, and we can always use censored version. And to be explicit and precise enough:

• There is only one scene (which is only up to 30 seconds) regarding rape (where you can see blood, nonnegotiable)
• One non-censored scene of sex and buying slave

My point is, there is no “high sexual content as the main focus of the material” as in there is no significant amount of sexual content to be labelled as “main focus”.

Also, before people here discuss “oh the guy is but”, no it is mainly about “revenge”, and he is using immoral methods to do so.

Besides, ; the source material is actually light novel, not manga neither anime. People have used this as “whataboutism” argument all the time, but none bothered to check that the page in vsbw itself has zero disturbing contents, and it is a crucial point.

I am not here to express disagreement or agreement (feel free to delete it. It's one outdated page with missing abilities), but rather to dispel the commonly held belief that it is frequently used as a “whataboutism” argument. This misconception must be dispelled as there is no evidence from either the author or viewers to suggest that it is viewed as “hentai” or “****” in reality.

Furthermore, the primary aim of the interviewed author (from 2021) is to demonstrate that an intense narrative can achieve success without being associated with “hentai” or “****." Additionally, can it truly be categorized as such? If it were indeed hentai or ****, the existence of novels or stories would be improbable.

Regarding the author; he himself said that he also draws a line and also labels his novel as “erotic novel”.

Other fact that author himself multiple times stated that the entire plot is about revenge, not **** neither hentai (plus that he indirectly differentiate between both). Also, this video is an author interview in 2021.

However, I am extremely careful about not going too far. There is a fine line between an enjoyable revenge and a scene that's too painful to watch. For example, breaking someone's fingers would be a barely passable for me. But removing fingernails or grinding flesh would be too gory to enjoy.

People who enjoy that exist. But I am not targetting that audience.

...

I don't go as far as splatter films. But I seek to deliver on catheartic revenge. I work on the border between those. I try very hard not to go too far.

If we start deleting verses because they contain explicit scenes, then the argument goes for almost every unfriendly-verse.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah it ain't ****. Questionable for sure, but it is fine by our rules.

 

[KingNanaya]

The 12 episode anime is not really any more erotic than other ecchis, though. It's not a hentai.

no, not at all. assuming we're talking about stuff like Senran Kagura or Valkyrie Drive, it has and shows way more.

The entire series revolves around revenge, not rape.

the main character was raped and tortured so he gets revenge by raping one of the people he wanted to get revenge against. he then erases her memories and takes her with him on his team. he then rapes more people.

And you are acting like American shows and ecchi manages don't also have a lot of sex scenes in the same way.

I never said they didn't. but they last far longer and go into much more detail than most ecchi.

Okay? Why does him having an edgy and tragic backstory provide a reason for the verse's removal?

because the entire series, from what I've seen, revolves around his backstory.

Gut's also gets raped as a child in his backstory. And that is shown to us "almost completely uncensored" in the manga.

yeah, but stuff like that doesn't happen in every episode you watch.

I'd also like to mention that most of this seems to be points regarding the anime, when the source material is a novel.

yes. my knowledge of the series comes from the anime. how much of a difference is it when comparing the anime to the novel? (not sarcastic or anything, I'm just genuinely curious)

There is approx. only 1 minute per episode from 20 to 25 minutes.

I counted the minutes myself. that's false

At the beginning it was a bit high due to introduction of his past which in fact was disgusting.

I can go through and count how long each scene lasts for each episode.

Besides, there is censored and non-censored version, and we can always use non-censored version. And to be explicit and precise enough:

from what I've heard, the ability to remove the scenes doesn't matter.

People have used this as “whataboutism” argument all the time, but none bothered to check that the page in vsbw itself has zero disturbing contents, and it is a crucial point.

it isn't whataboutism at all. I'm not saying it should be deleted because other verses are allowed, I'm saying it should be deleted because, from what I've seen, I think it goes beyond what we allow.

 

[Deagonx]

The crux of the matter is whether or not the verse is intended to be pornographic, and it seems that it isn't.

 

[FinePoint]

My opinion remains the same as before. I don't think a verse should be banned just because it contains intense or adult scenes and/or themes.

Since my initial post, I've actually watched some of it myself, and I do have to admit that while they make up a relatively small part of the series as a whole, the focus and extent of the sex scenes are extremely reminiscent of hentai and if not explicitly for the purpose, do at least lean into being possibly used as ****.

That said, so long as explicit scenes aren't directly linked to on the wiki, then I feel like it's alright to have a page about it provided it's careful about how it approaches the content.

That it's a very edgy story is sort of irrelevant to me- plenty of stories are extremely dark, but people are just far more likely to accept a brutal beheading than sexual assault, even if they're both ultimately just explicit depictions of the worst parts of humanity in a realistic context. I'm an author myself who has told some very grimdark stories, and when your message and theme strives to be about a seriously messed up topic, then it's sensible for there to be seriously messed up scenes.

For example, the Boys is a popular verse on this website, and it contains a prolonged and graphic scene featuring urethral vore, and a previous one of actual sexual assault, as well as sex in general being a central theme, but I don't see people striking to ban that verse. For the nature of the message the show is trying to convey, these sort of things are narrative tools for powerfully establishing a tone around the impact of that message. If these scenes were stripped from the Boys, maybe one could subjectively argue that it would improve the show, but what you can't argue against is that it would fundamentally change the way the show is experienced- the decision of how and what story to tell is up to the creator, and I don't think we should be so biased as to ban a verse just because they have a different idea than us on the number of graphic scenes needed to properly tell their story, and based on everything I've heard, that is their primary intention: to tell a story, not to give people material to pleasure themselves to.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Vote Tally – Staff Only

• Agreements: @Mr._Bambu
• Neutral: @Antvasima, @DarkDragonMedeus
• Disagreements: @Deagonx, @FinePoint, @Armorchompy

Note: You have been granted authorization to modify this post. Should I (Dread) misunderstand your position, please feel at liberty to edit the post rather than leaving a comment on it.

 

[KingNanaya]

Vote Tally – Staff Only

• Agreements: None
• Neutral: @Mr._Bambu
• Disagreements: @Deagonx @FinePoint @Armorchompy

Note: You have been granted authorization to modify this post. Should I (Dread) misunderstand your position, please feel at liberty to edit the post rather than leaving a comment on it.

I will state beforehand that I do believe the verse falls into Category 4 of our acceptable content rating, though it is more tenuous than other verses since the intent seems muddied- most people try to argue it is just overly edgy (and horrible) and not intended as ****. I disagree, but it is a greyer area.

Bambu said he thinks it's category 4. that would be an agree.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Aye, Dread asked me to clarify my position on Discord, and I hadn't due to today allegedly being TTRPG day. I would align with agree.

 

[KingNanaya]

Aye, Dread asked me to clarify my position on Discord, and I hadn't due to today allegedly being TTRPG day. I would align with agree.

thank you for clarifying. enjoy your day

 

[Scottycj256]

My opinion remains the same as before. I don't think a verse should be banned just because it contains intense or adult scenes and/or themes.

Since my initial post, I've actually watched some of it myself, and I do have to admit that while they make up a relatively small part of the series as a whole, the focus and extent of the sex scenes are extremely reminiscent of hentai and if not explicitly for the purpose, do at least lean into being possibly used as ****.

That said, so long as explicit scenes aren't directly linked to on the wiki, then I feel like it's alright to have a page about it provided it's careful about how it approaches the content.

That it's a very edgy story is sort of irrelevant to me- plenty of stories are extremely dark, but people are just far more likely to accept a brutal beheading than sexual assault, even if they're both ultimately just explicit depictions of the worst parts of humanity in a realistic context. I'm an author myself who has told some very grimdark stories, and when your message and theme strives to be about a seriously messed up topic, then it's sensible for there to be seriously messed up scenes.

For example, the Boys is a popular verse on this website, and it contains a prolonged and graphic scene featuring urethral vore, and a previous one of actual sexual assault, as well as sex in general being a central theme, but I don't see people striking to ban that verse. For the nature of the message the show is trying to convey, these sort of things are narrative tools for powerfully establishing a tone around the impact of that message. If these scenes were stripped from the Boys, maybe one could subjectively argue that it would improve the show, but what you can't argue against is that it would fundamentally change the way the show is experienced- the decision of how and what story to tell is up to the creator, and I don't think we should be so biased as to ban a verse just because they have a different idea than us on the number of graphic scenes needed to properly tell their story, and based on everything I've heard, that is their primary intention: to tell a story, not to give people material to pleasure themselves to.

the point of the Boys is to paint superheroes as a mistake, and show the worst qualities of them as a result, and it works in the TV series due to its nuanced writing

Redo of Healer has no nuanced writing and no point to it in general besides "revenge rape good", nuke it off the site

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I am neutral for now.

 

[Antvasima]

I am also uncertain.

 

[FinePoint]

the point of the Boys is to paint superheroes as a mistake, and show the worst qualities of them as a result, and it works in the TV series due to its nuanced writing

Redo of Healer has no nuanced writing and no point to it in general besides "revenge rape good", nuke it off the site

You previously deleted this for lack of permission, but I think it's worth responding to, so you can consider me having given you permission now.

I understand this perspective, but it ultimately comes from a subjective analysis of the quality of the show rather than its purpose, which is the definitive factor for the debate here. The first point obviously so, I think there's going to be a lot of differing opinions on whether the writing is nuanced or not.

The second thing, though, I believe I can refute with my own perspective. The following is a plot premise I got from Wikipedia.

"Keyaru, who is exploited and sexually abused repeatedly by others due to being a healing magician, notices what lays just beyond his healing magic, and is convinced that a healing magician is the strongest class in the world. However, by the time he realizes his own potential, he is already deprived of everything. Thus, using his healing magic, enhanced by the magic enhancing properties of the Philosopher's Stone on the world itself, he goes back four years into the past, deciding to redo everything and get revenge on the ones who abused him and take down a corrupted empire."

To me, this reads as the point being to highlight a historical trend of atrocities being perpetuated by previous atrocities, and how the cycle of abuse, especially societally, can turn otherwise well-intentioned people into monsters of their own. And/or it warns of the consequences of a society which abuses people, similar to the Joker movie. The main character is painted as both a victim and a villain at the same time, and there's clear debate among its fans whether he's an anti-hero, villain, or otherwise, which highlights that it's a story at least capable of making people think critically, which to me is indeed a sign of nuance rather than a clear-and-cut empty **** plotline.

Similar to how the Boys shows the worst qualities of superheroes to paint them as a mistake, it seems to me like Redo shows the worst qualities of revenge to paint it as a vicious cycle, or, if nothing else, as a cautionary tale to societies which are cruel.

In short, I believe there is ample evidence from the plot itself and the debate among the community that Redo goes beyond an empty hentai, and instead tells a meaningful (if very intensely crude) story.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It has been stated plainly before that the mere presence of plot does not elevate **** above the rest of its genre. As such many of these arguments don't sway me, as they presume that the presence of even basically deeper writing (while still being shallow) somehow changes it. In my view, the most important element is intent, and I think Redo errs too far away from what we consider acceptable in this regard. I don't find the comparison to the Boys (or any other that has been made, down the years) an accurate one.

 

[ImmortalDread]

If the main important element is intent, then author himself stated it in the interview: (I personally don't think intent is the factor to determinate)

However, I am extremely careful about not going too far. There is a fine line between an enjoyable revenge and a scene that's too painful to watch. For example, breaking someone's fingers would be a barely passable for me. But removing fingernails or grinding flesh would be too gory to enjoy.

People who enjoy that exist. But I am not targetting that audience.

...

I don't go as far as splatter films. But I seek to deliver on catheartic revenge. I work on the border between those. I try very hard not to go too far.

He also differentiates between “****” and novels.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If the main important element is intent, then author himself stated it in the interview: (I personally don't think intent is the factor to determinate)

He also differentiates between “****” and novels.

That's not even what he said though, he's talking about physical pain there (which is an element of the overall subject but it isn't the full deal). He then says he is catering to people looking for revenge, so like... by your interpretation, would I take that to mean he's catering to revenge **** enjoyers?

 

[ImmortalDread]

No, he was not talking about “physical pain”, he is technically talking about “too much gore” and the first line establish that. And then later he said he is not going as far as splatter films (focus on graphic portrayals of gore and graphic violence) and will draw a line between that.

Also, the question was why he made revenge that intense compared to others (hardcore revenge), and he answered it formally that he wanted that but also not far

Besides, in the entire interview, he never designate the series as “pornography” or “hentai”, but rather controversial.

Plus he himself admitted that his entire goal of the series is to create cathartic revenge. This does not sound for me “he created **** plot-line”. Unless you think he hides from the fact that he unintentionally created “pornography”, then this is a bit assumptive, since he still calls it as revenge which in fact, it uses more than sexual contents as their narrative device, he still uses other facts (that somehow none really here cares) such as murder, exploit, manipulation, slave trade...ect

Also, it sounds you are going too far from subjective factors, rather focusing on the statistical factors ;/

 

[Mr. Bambu]

No, he was not talking about “physical pain”, he is technically talking about “too much gore” and the first line establish that. And then later he said he is not going as far as splatter films (focus on graphic portrayals of gore and graphic violence) and will draw a line between that.

Also, the question was why he made revenge that intense compared to others (hardcore revenge), and he answered it formally that he wanted that but also not far

Besides, in the entire interview, he never designate the series as “pornography” or “hentai”, but rather controversial.

Plus he himself admitted that his entire goal of the series is to create cathartic revenge. This does not sound for me “he created **** plot-line”. Unless you think he hides from the fact that he unintentionally created “pornography”, then this is a bit assumptive, since he still calls it as revenge which in fact, it uses more than sexual contents as their narrative device, he still uses other facts (that somehow none really here cares) such as murder, exploit, manipulation, slave trade...ect

Also, it sounds you are going too far from subjective factors, rather focusing on the statistical factors ;/

Okay, so the interview isn't about the thing we're talking about. He's talking about aspects apart from what we're talking about. Which is why I wanted to demonstrate why it'd be negative to try to infer from this unrelated statement his intent- because, the latter half of that statement can also be inferred to be approving of revenge **** (that is, after all, exactly what it is we're dealing with, for the protagonist).

I don't know what "statistics" you're referencing here, but my judgement on the situation remains firm. I accept that I will most definitely be outvoted, I retain the right to at least state that this shit reeks and ought not be on here.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I think this is a bit of unfair approach to declare it as "****" while none as from community and from author himself to label it as such. Just saying from the one who watched the series by myself.

The statistics as in the amount of sexual content to be determined as "high", but as far as I see, no proof has been given. This to eliminate any biasness since most of plots that deemed to be morally unacceptable, won't simply be removed.

If it was ****, then I will question how this verse still ended up in sfw sites, as well as I would question how our page in fandom has 0 sexual content. This seems a crucial aspect because if it was high, our page would at least has warning template.

My take.

 

[Deagonx]

I draw two main distinctions about this situation, especially as compared to the Rance situation as many were fond of referencing Redo during that discussion.

The first is that this author does not appear to be an erotic author. His other works are pretty much bog standard shonen, some of it is harem stuff but nothing beyond usual Ecchi. The studio that adapted the work is not a hentai studio. They do appear to be involved in animated a lot of Ecchi material (High School DxD) but they don't literally make hentai.

So, we can at least settle the debate as to whether this is literally intended to be hentai, it clearly isn't. If it was, it wouldn't be on HIDIVE. Clearly the studio went far enough with the sexual content that it got rehosted to hentai websites and that's notable, but I'm inclined to Phoenks' point that this is an adaptation of a light novel. I haven't read it, and won't, but reading some reviews of it no one describes it as a pornographic novel and the publication it was released in isn't suspect in that regard, as it also released the Light Novels for FLCL, Gundam, Eureka Seven, et cetera.

I will contrast this against Rance, which was developed by a company Alicesoft which is primarily known for releasing erotic video games, and every notable title on the page is erotic, and thus, Rance is best interpreted as being released primarily for that purpose.

Redo definitely dips its toes over the line, the anime adaptation does not help that, and the premise is disgusting, but it is not primarily intended for sexual gratification and thus is probably on the more extreme end of what we would consider Category 3. I understand Bambu's viewpoint but Redo will probably stay given the above factors.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

All fair enough points. I still contest it being on here and I think I find the fact that it is hosted by hentai sites much more notable than you (and find the author's history much less notable), but all fair.

 

[Deagonx]

I think I find the fact that it is hosted by hentai sites much more notable than you

I'd find it more notable if it were an anime original, but it being a light novel changes my perception of the scenes a fair bit.

 

[Phoenks]

I would like to mention that the original source material, the Web Novel, does not contain graphic sex scenes like the anime at all. It skips all of the scenes. This is likely because the site it was published on, "Narou," had a strict policy regarding 18+ material. (Source: Translator of the Webnovel)

As for the LN and manga, I have not read the LN, but I have read most of the manga. It isn't even as severe as the anime. The anime cuts things out that were in the manga, which leads to the anime coming off as more erotic because much of the in-between scenes are not in it (This is common practice in a lot of more ecchi adaptations of novel series. They are basically supposed to act as advertisements for the novel, thus they cut a lot of content and have more focus on the things that will immediately catch a viewer's attention ex. ecchi scenes and fanservive). Manga actually takes much more time to focus on the story and characters.

Does anyone know what the current source of the pages is? Is it the Web novel, Light novel, or Manga? I do not believe it is the LN as that does not have any proper translations to my knowledge.

 

[Deagonx]

Does anyone know what the current source of the pages is? Is it the Web novel, Light novel, or Manga? I do not believe it is the LN as that does not have any proper translations to my knowledge.

It has no scans or references on it, and Keyaru is the only one with a profile. Honestly, that might be a better reason to delete the verse lol.

Worth noting the pictures are from the manga, so it may be based on that.

 

[Phoenks]

It has no scans or references on it, and Keyaru is the only one with a profile. Honestly, that might be a better reason to delete the verse lol.

Worth noting the pictures are from the manga, so it may be based on that.

I would be down with deleting the pages for with reasons being that they are severely outdated, lack scans/references, and are based on an unknown source.

I am also planning on remaking the page(s) based on the manga in the near-future.

 

[Deagonx]

This appears to have been rejected and it looks like we will possibly take a different route for removing the Keyaru profile (though it will be remade later by Phoenks) and Nanaya has asked me to close this, so I will do so now.