Reinhard Heydrich Vs The Emperor of Mankind

[FateAlbane]

Rather than said Reinhard win via Void or Concept manipulation, It's better to discuss what does his Void or Concept manipulation do and how emprah can or cannot negate that since one of his conceptually ability to move faster than his opponet is can be counter by time stop.

Breloom clearly doesn't know much about either character and is making a load of assumptions... When the emperor can even erase people on all levels/planes and spheres of existence too, which also translates to Non-Existence.

Then he makes moot points such as "Woooo, stomp, he has no counter for this". #facepalms

 

[BreloomFanboy]

I do, when you keep ignoring other people's arguments.

Or when you make moot points.

Or when you seem to be unable to understand that Reality Warping is also a counter for Non-Existence. Either this or you think that the match goes like this:

Reinhard uses RW >> Emperor uses RW

Reinhard uses Non-Existence >> Emperor: OH NO, I just used Reality Warping a moment ago, my God, I can't use it again to Counter Non Existence or Conceptual Manip DESPITE my Reality Warping being of such a High Level, good lord why, I can't use the same power twice, NOOOO!

Reality Warping is a large and expansive ability. It has many applications and subsets. Simply having it doesn't automatically give you a counter to every form of manipulation. Unless you provide proof of the Emperor countering Concept and Void manipulation.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Concept and Void manipulation is a large and expansive ability. It has many applications and subsets. Simply having it doesn't automatically give you the win to counter to every form of manipulation. Unless you provide proof of the Emperor cant countering Concept and Void manipulation.

 

[FateAlbane]

It has been kinda explained a ton of times above how high is the level of the Emperor's Manipulation and how he can be at least Equal to Reinhard in said regard. You're the only one going "Wooo, he has no counter, this is stomp", despite being explained TIME AND AGAIN how powerful the emperor also is. Everyone knows Reinhard can win or the emperor can win, and were voting based on the advantages one may have over the other.

Yet you don't seem to even know how they apply said Reality Warping/Non-Existence/Conceptual Manip in the first place, while saying it's stomp if they have no "counter" for it when there's no PERFECT counter for any of these abilities. I explained this to you above. They are called Omnipowers for a reason.

I would bother arguing with you, but then I get reminded of you "arguing" against at least 10 users (and increasing) in that Hades vs Death thread by repeating the same moot point over and over and being explained the nature of powers like a billion times AND still repeating the same thing for the majority of the thread with no signs of ever accepting that yeah, you were wrong, all while ignoring people's arguments.

... I've seen this movie waaay too many times. Like, at least three or four threads where you do this. So nope, not going through it again.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Midora is also has Void Manipulation so he stomp emprah!

 

[BreloomFanboy]

Concept and Void manipulation is a large and expansive ability. It has many applications and subsets. Simply having it doesn't automatically give you the win to counter to every form of manipulation. Unless you provide proof of the Emperor cant countering Concept and Void manipulation.

I don't see a counter to it on his profile. I even asked Matthew and he has yet to give an respond.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Rather than said Reinhard win via Void or Concept manipulation, It's better to discuss what does his Void or Concept manipulation do and how emprah can or cannot negate that since one of his conceptually ability to move faster than his opponet is can be counter by time stop.

 

[BreloomFanboy]

It has been kinda explained a ton of times above how high is the level of the Emperor's Manipulation and how he can be at least Equal to Reinhard in said regard. You're the only one going "Wooo, he has no counter, this is stomp", despite being explained TIME AND AGAIN how powerful the emperor also is. Everyone knows Reinhard can win or the emperor can win, and where voting based on the advantages one may have over the other.

Yet you don't seem to even know how they apply said Reality Warping/Non-Existence/Conceptual Manip in the first place, while saying it's stomp if they have no "counter" for it when there's no PERFECT counter for any of these abilities. I explained this to you above. They are called Omnipowers for a reason.

I would bother arguing with you, but then I get reminded of you "arguing" against at least 10 users (and increasing) in that Hades vs Death thread by repeating the same moot point over and over and being explained the nature of powers like a billion times AND still repeating the same thing for the majority of the thread with no signs of ever accepting that yeah, you were wrong, all while ignoring people's arguments.

... I've seen this movie waaay too many times. Like, at least three or four threads where you do this. So nope, not going through it again.

You didn't explain anything actually. I also admitted to being wrong it that thread.

 

[FateAlbane]

^ ClearlyDidn'tReadtheThreadNorTheExplanationsOrIsDownplayingTheEmperor.exe

Also, don't quote big replies. One way or another, I'm done. Like I said, I've tried reasonably arguing with you waaaaay too much and it never seems to go anywhere. Yet again you're the only one defending a false point here and hell if I'll waste any more hours of my life trying to make you understand, lest an otherwise awesome thread is destroyed. Bye.

 

[BreloomFanboy]

^ ClearlyDidn'tReadtheThreadNorTheExplanationsOrIsDownplayingTheEmperor.exe

Read my last two comments in the thread. Yeah I was wrong which I'm sorry for. But people make mistakes of course.

 

[BreloomFanboy]

Also, don't quote big replies. One way or another, I'm done. Like I said, I've tried reasonably arguing with you waaaaay too much and it never seems to go anywhere. Yet again you're the only one defending a false point here and hell if I'll waste any more hours of my life trying to make you understand, lest an otherwise awesome thread is destroyed. Bye.

I'm not sure why you're making this some personal issue. Excluding that Death vs Hades match (which I admitted to being somewhat wrong), you never refuted my pass arguments. I'm not even sure why you're taking this so seriously, like are you being paid to comment on this website?

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Oh my.....this is not going to end well.

 

[FateAlbane]

Nah, Jim, like I said above, I'm done with this. Water under the bridge. Let the debate continue.

 

[FateAlbane]

Also, did Sage God Slayer change his vote now or?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

By the way, The Emperor wins ans Breloom has 0 arguments in this. The Chaos Gods are the Embodiment of Existence as a whole and can manipulate concepts to an extent even in the Materium, and we have no idea how high Reinhard's manipulation is.

Void Manipulation is a non-entity and a Low 4-C will never affected a 4-A+ with his, specially when said 4-A+ has resistance to hax in general.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Matt Like Jim pointed out, it would be good if everyone could read and talk about how the character uses a power rather than assuming "He has x power, so he can instantly use all of its applications, no limits to variations and potency". It's like that character who can say, cut space, then some read "Spatial Manipulation" in their powers and abilities, proceeding to insta-assume that the character can do every single variation of Space Manip ever.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You wanna know why a 4-C's Concept Manipultation won't kill The Emperor?

It's called Chaos Gods.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Khorne

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tzeentch

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Slaanesh

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Nurgle

They are all inferior to the Emperor outside The Warp as his psychic might restricts them, and everytime they fought none of them could simple wave their hands to manipulate their respective concepts and erase him.

In the Warp itself, The Emperor's Psychic Warp-Self is fighting against all 4 of them at once been 10,000 Years.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If we wanna discuss what can even this match, discussion the LDO's various Briahs and Reinhard's Longinuslanze. Those are where their real firepower lies.

 

[BreloomFanboy]

You wanna know why a 4-C's Concept Manipultation won't kill The Emperor?

It's called Chaos Gods.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Khorne

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tzeentch

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Slaanesh

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Nurgle

They are all inferior to the Emperor outside The Warp as his psychic might restricts them, and everytime they fought none of them could simple wave their hands to manipulate their respective concepts and erase him.

In the Warp itself, The Emperor's Psychic Warp-Self is fighting against all 4 of them at once been 10,000 Years.

Thanks

This is all I asked for, justifications on how The Emperor counters Concept manipulation since I'm not familiar with the verse. Instead all I got was essays of people's irrelevant opinions on something so insignificant it shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

[Aparajita]

I'd have to give this to the Emperor for the reasons stated.

Also, Matt, Emperor can freeze time along with slowing time. A marine who recieved a fraction of his power percieved lasers at a snail's pace. Against Horus, the Emperor froze time to talk to Horus.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes, but Speed is Equalized here, and if we assume Timestop can work outside of Equalization, Reinhard has Schreiber's Briah which would make him always slightly faster than The Emperor.

 

[FateAlbane]

Instead all I got was essays of people's irrelevant opinions on something so insignificant it shouldn't be taken seriously.

Such as your opinions based on moot points, bias, not understanding the points made by anyone and repetitive "arguments" based on personal opinions and lack of reasoning or actual logic, on top of poor understanding of how powers work and lack of knowledge on either character as well as all the assumptions you made without any semblance of basis, I suppose. Want me to list more? Welcome, Breloom, to your own world: The world of irrelevant, moot arguments. It's what you do to people all the time by bringing up that... Logic of yours, If I can call it that.

Whoops. Thank you for the understanding, dear. Take a cup of tea and relax now.

 

[Trexalfa29]

How about everyone shows knowledge of the characters here instead of blindly looking at the profiles? Because I can write "Non Existence Manipulation" and "Reality Warping" all the times I want and I still wouldn't get at anything. How about some people learn what the characters can do with these powers? Cause they are way more limited than whatever is being thought here.

 

[FateAlbane]

Thank you, Trex. I really wanted that to be pointed out by now.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I made this fight cause I wanted to discuss if the Briahs could affect someone of The Emperor's caliber. Not to scream repeated buzz words.

 

[Jakob_C._Brown]

So what's the voting count between Space Messiah and Nazi Ubermensch thus far, 3 - 1?

Also, I'd love to give my vote to the Emperor since he has dealt with all kinds of cosmic shenanigans on a high level, but then you have Reinhardt who is apparently capable of this:

Reinhard tanked a mind attack with the weight of the darkness of at least decillions of Recurrences (pretty sure there would be a lot more), from the Big Bang to the time the game takes places. He didn't even flinch, what's more, he found Methuselah to be amusing and was already thinking of loving (aka wrecking) him.

So yeah...

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

5 to 1

 

[FateAlbane]

So yeah...

I would like to argue that his powers of erasing the target in every plane/sphere of its existence sound way more dangerous to me than the mind part. Besides, people point those numbers out but isn't Methuselah fundamentally weaker than the emperor anyways? What's to say that his Mind powers are stronger than the ones the emperor wields based on number of people affected alone? It could even be a matter of range, less people around or the Emperor simply wanting to affect that particular number.

Assuming Reinhard would no sell him based on his feat against a much weaker character sounds like a bit of a stretch to me.

 

[FateAlbane]

Not to mention, him resisting something would lead to Inconclusive at best, and that's if we disregard all the other powers the emperor has on his arsenal. Unless you explain how Reinhard uses his own powers to beat the emperor you can't say "he wins because he resists x power", which was the only part you quoted in your reasoning.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Mind-Powers are a non-entity in this. The Emperor has numerous other ways of destroying Reinhard, and can also resist Mind-Hax of his own.

Just look up what Slaanesh can do to someone with their presence / visage. Emperor is immune to that.

 

[Trexalfa29]

Not taking any sides at the moment (though I'm leaning on the Emperor really). But... What does the Emperor being stronger than Methuselah have to do with the power of his darkness aura? Yeah, the Emperor can mind rape whole sectors of space. This isn't a question of the number of people affected (as Fate said, dunno why), but of the density and power of the attack itself.

Lui is the incarnation of all the darkness from the beginning of the universe to the day IKaBey takes place. His darkness aura carries all this weight and, since humans have a primal fear of darkness, this is akin to a mind rape attack. He can turn people insane and even drive them to suicide just by being around. And with each Recurrence, more darkness gets added.

The thing is... Snake remembers decillions of these loops. And that's only those he remembers. His Atziluth disregards causality altogether and, given the nature of time loops by themselves, it's likely they are many, many more. And Reinhard has been curbstomping Ludwig for many, many loops, maybe those decillions of them, or maybe more. And even with the strengthening of the aura, he has not flinched even once. This power of concentrated mind rape is, I'm afraid, beyond most things I've seen from Warhammer.

 

[FateAlbane]

But doesn't the Emperor also deal with them Mind Rapers on a daily basis (like the aforementioned Slaanesh, though I don't know enough about 40k yet to be certain)? I mean, a Mind User on his level could very well have potency comparable if not superior to Methuselah (but that's mostly speculation on my end, so don't think too much about this one point). My point is not quite that the emperor mindf*cks Reinhard, just that Reinhard no selling his mind powers is nowhere near enough to say he wins as Jakob said.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Okay. Wanna talk about Mind-Destruction, then let's talk about Slaanesh. Namely, Slaanesh's Palace.

Firstly, it takes place in the Warp, but on a lower-domain of the Warp specifically designed to affect mortals, rather than a Higher-Dimensional location like Tzeench's Labyrinth. So it can be scaled to the powers of Realspace Slaanesh. The Dark Prince's Realm is divided into six domains, all arranged into cocentric circles around Slaanesh's Palace of Pleasure. Each drives those who wander into it further into temptation and madness. Let's talk about them.

The first is the Circle of Avidity. Here there lies a world of boundless wealth, with the skies themselves shining as diamond and mountains of gold and jewelry cascading from waterfalls. The entire land is made of fortune beyond measure, and only the strongest of will can pass it, as if you are tempted by the riches for even an instant, your very consciousness shall become one with it, your entire being crystallized into gold and gems.

Second is the Circle of Gluttony, a world filled with an endless banquet of every culinary wonder there is, and no matter what you hunger and thirst for, you shall find in abundance. Said feast holds taste, scent and appearance so wonderful it's incomparably greater than any other food. Should you fall to your desires and taste a single delicacy, you shall become a bloated fool who's only desire is to eat until the moment of your death.

Third is the Circle of Carnality, a land where your every sexual desire may take form, and every conceivable and inconceivable carnal pleasure can be experienced. The sights of this place will drive anyone made with lust, and upon falling to the temptation your very soul is devoured by Daemonettes.

Fourth is the Circle of Paramountcy, a world where you are adored as supreme by an infinite crowd, and will be granted absolute power, and hailed as perfect. All live for your sake, and nothing is beyond your reach, though in actuality it is an empty, decaying world where you'll remain forever in delusions.

Fifth is the Circle of Vainglory, a world where you are relived of the previous temptations, and can dwell in pure blissful fantasies. Here, everything you ever desired to be, wished you were, or believe to be are reality, and with all your goals achieved, all your dreams and desires fulfilled, you can finally rest in satisfaction, though doing so will claim your soul as you are reminded of all your failures in the final instant.

Finally, Sixth is the Circle of Indolency, a land of heavenly beauty where all is in pure harmony, and the very air fills you with a narcotic-like sense of peace. Here, everyone remains in happiness and love in a world devoid of all suffering and pain. Though, if one savors such a world for the slightest instant, and you shall be mindless and trapped till the last of your days.

For the few legendary souls who traverse past the Circles of Temptation, Slaanesh's palace awaits, where they will soon learn that their arduous and torturous journey was for naught. All that has been offered and witnessed so far is but a fraction of Slaanesh's true self, whose indescribable beauty, the very embodiment of pleasure and desire, instantly destroys all sense in the minds and souls of those who gaze upon it. There are no exceptions, all mortals who come this far are fated to become Slaanesh's mindless servants.

. . . And The Emperor is capable of fighting against a serious Slaanesh and suffer no consequences. More, Slaanesh is but one, and the weakest of the 4 Chaos Gods, and their combined might is incapable of destroying the Emperor's will and soul.

 

[BreloomFanboy]

@Matthew Schroeder

So, this 4-A character resisted hax from a "at least 1-C"? Interesting...

Simply sourcing essays of information doesn't give your argument more credibility.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@BreloomFanboy

If you cared to actually read my post, you'll know it scales to 3D Slaanesh.

 

[BreloomFanboy]

I read your post actually. You didn't approve any real proof on why it scales to its heavily restricted form/state. Higher-dimensional entities can still affect mortals. So I'm not understanding how its feat in it's own palace/world should scale to it while it's lower-dimensional and restricted.

 

[FateAlbane]

Firstly, it takes place in the Warp, but on a lower-domain of the Warp specifically designed to affect mortals, rather than a Higher-Dimensional location like Tzeench's Labyrinth. So it can be scaled to the powers of Realspace Slaanesh.

This is "SS Gods aren't Acausal" and "Elemental Manipulation equals Reality Warping" all over again. We're just going through a different point this time, which probably should be obvious to everyone but somehow isn't.

 

[BreloomFanboy]

I'm not going to respond to the rest of your comment because it doesn't damage my argument in any way.

I never said element manipulation is reality warping... I said that every form of manipulation is an application/subset of reality warping via Low-Level Reality Warping. But why are you even mentioning that in a different thread about a different topic?

 

[FateAlbane]

Because you're doing the exact same thing in this argument by arguing points that are fundamentally wrong and/or moot, that's why.

And yup, look up that discussion again if you don't remember that your point was as fundamentally wrong as the one you're bringing up here. Didn't stop you from arguing it to no end.

By the way, it's not me "making it personal", (before you come up with the strawman again). It just so happens that you're the only one questioning the points that should be clear to everyone. I can't adress a lot of people on the thread regarding something when you're the only one who's not understanding the argument ANYONE else makes time and again.

 

[FateAlbane]

And sorry, but when you don't actually try to argue your points, saying instead "this is false my point still stands", without explaining the how and why, it doesn't hold much ground. It just sounds like you denying a point without providing any actual proof or reasoning for what you're suggesting.

Which in turn, makes your arguments moot.