Regarding Upscaling

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Regarding upscaling, we just need to determine if there are valid scenarios / situations where we can rate one character's rating above another characters rating by a concrete figure. For example; does one-shotting via vaporizing a weaker character through sheer power, or blitzing a character through sheer speed mean that you can safely be rated as X times above the weaker/slower character?

And if those standards take shape, then we will be in a better position to create guidelines for why and how upscaling can work.

That’s what I agree with, one-shotting, being stated to be far stronger, blitzing, and being stated to be far faster are all valid cases of upscaling if the initial person getting wrecked is close to the Baseline of the next tier

 

[Agnaa]

If we're now talking about speed blitzes, I'd say that, due to the sheer specificity of it, anyone with a concrete feat/statement of outspeeding a SoL character (not merely fighting on the same level of/tagging) should give an FTL rating.

 

[Damage3245]

@Agnaa; that sounds like a sensible idea that can be included in an "Upscaling" page (or a modified "Powerscaling" page).

 

[Armorchompy]

Pretty obvious, same thing should apply to characters that go at exactly the speed of sound.

 

[Agnaa]

Pretty obvious, same thing should apply to characters that go at exactly the speed of sound.

idk about that one, exactly the speed of sound is mach 1, and Transonic goes up to mach 1.1

 

[Armorchompy]

Right.

 

[Schnee_One]

That’s what I agree with, one-shotting, being stated to be far stronger, blitzing, and being stated to be far faster are all valid cases of upscaling if the initial person getting wrecked is close to the Baseline of the next tier

I should ask since this involves one of my supported verses

What about if a near baseline feat of the next tier is performed casually? Should we ignore that and use one shotting and everything else you mentioned for upscaling?

 

[Armorchompy]

Of course, it should be addressed that other kinds of upscaling, such as huge, unspecified power boosts or statements of being far stronger should also have their own numbers, if we really need those. I still would rather have case by case evaluation.

 

[Damage3245]

@Armorchompy; even if we wanted to go with case-by-case evaluation, I believe we would still need guidelines on what makes some cases more acceptable than others. For certain types of feats on the wiki we have lists of requirements, and general guidelines. Upscaling seems like such an important topic that it would definitely require them as well.

 

[Armorchompy]

True, I agree with that in the case of one-shotting via sheer power. But in the case of generic power amps, that's basically impossible to generally quantify. For example, I have this character that, in a game where you normally never gain experience and stay at level 1 for the whole game, levels up 63 times after beating the final boss, which brings his stats hundreds of times higher and allows him to one-shot literally everything in the game, so of course that would likely be considered a bigger upgrade than just "Yeah, I'm a lot stronger now!"

 

[Damage3245]

@Armorchompy; while I don't know the exact details of that scenario, it sounds to me like if his stats literally gets hundreds of times higher than you wouldn't need to upscale at all, since it would either have a measurable increase or a measurable multiplier. (Not to mention feats of one-shotting opponents he couldn't one-shot before, so presumably they have their own durability feats that he'd now scale to).

 

[Agnaa]

@Armorchompy; while I don't know the exact details of that scenario, it sounds to me like if his stats literally gets hundreds of times higher than you wouldn't need to upscale at all, since it would either have a measurable increase or a measurable multiplier. (Not to mention feats of one-shotting opponents he couldn't one-shot before, so presumably they have their own durability feats that he'd now scale to).

We don't naively multiply calc values by in-game stats like that. We need very strong evidence to do something like that.

 

[Armorchompy]

I never said we should, all I intended to communicate is that even the most casual attacks one-shot any bonus boss, so it's clearly a very strong power boost. This character is also around 2x below 9-A's baseline, and he's able to one-shot the person the feat comes from

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody summarise the conclusions so far here please?

 

[Armorchompy]

We're still discussing I believe.

 

[Agnaa]

I never said we should, all I intended to communicate is that even the most casual attacks one-shot any bonus boss, so it's clearly a very strong power boost. This character is also around 2x below 9-A's baseline, and he's able to one-shot the person the feat comes from

I know you weren't, I was replying to Damage, who said:

it sounds to me like if his stats literally gets hundreds of times higher than you wouldn't need to upscale at all, since it would either have a measurable increase or a measurable multiplier.

Literally saying to use a multiplier based on the stats.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think that's the fault of my wording. Anyway, if we're to follow the 1.5x rule, this guy cannot be 9-A, but it's very clearly a huge power boost overall.

 

[Damage3245]

Can somebody summarise the conclusions so far here please?

We're still discussing. We'll let you know when we have some workable conclusions.

 

[Damage3245]

I know you weren't, I was replying to Damage, who said:

Literally saying to use a multiplier based on the stats.

The assumption being that the multiplier has enough evidence to be valid anyway.

I did say that I didn't know the full details of the scenario.

 

[Agnaa]

I just think it should be stressed that even explicit multipliers in video games have a far higher standard of evidence than normal. Multipliers on AP values just by leveling up and getting higher stats are almost never given out.

I think it's misleading for you to say "Stats increasing should probably just multiply values from calcs", even if you later add "well it needs evidence to be valid".

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

So I believe most of us are in an agreement that we keep upscaling, but we need to agree on what the standards should be for using upscaling

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Mitch. Help in this regard would be very appreciated.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Here are the things that need to be tied down

1. Do we have a specific number difference that you need to be from the next tier's baseline to upscale
2. Do we treat all upscaling as a case by case
3. What type of feats of superiority do you need to upscale

I shall call some more staff

@Antoniofer @LordGriffin1000 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Gemmysaur @Firestorm808 @SamanPatou @Jvando @WeeklyBattles @Abstractions

 

[Armorchompy]

I think 3 is simply answered by "an inequivocable show of superiority in sheer strength, making sure that the feat is not executed with some kind of advantage, such as striking a weak spot or stealth" something like that

 

[KLOL506]

Here are the things that need to be tied down

1. Do we have a specific number difference that you need to be from the next tier's baseline to upscale
2. Do we treat all upscaling as a case by case
3. What type of feats of superiority do you need to upscale

For #1, I am personally fine with the character being at least 1.3x (75%-ish or 3/4th of their current tier) away from the next tier's baseline value to qualify, but 1.1x and closer to the next tier and the character is gonna have to jump tiers via upscaling without any questions asked especially if A, the character performed the feat uber-casually or some other character lolnopes said character without exploiting any weak spots.

For #2 it'd depend on the situation and context.

For #3, what Armorchompy said.

 

[Damage3245]

We'd also need some valid examples to go with the description of "an inequivocable show of superiority in sheer strength, making sure that the feat is not executed with some kind of advantage, such as striking a weak spot or stealth".

Because what is the show of strength supposed to resemble? Punching someone and knocking them unconscious? Blasting a hole through their torso? What about cases of statements instead of feats?

And I think that even if it creates complications, we still need to allow upscaling in cases where it isn't close to a tier boundary. In most situations it probably won't matter since visually the profiles will be unaffected, but it needs to be kept in mind.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

"And I think that even if it creates complications, we still need to allow upscaling in cases where it isn't close to a tier boundary. In most situations it probably won't matter since visually the profiles will be unaffected, but it needs to be kept in mind."

You mean just jumping people from 300 Gigatons to 400 Gigatons? That's not really upscaling in my mind, upscaling is when you jump to the Baseline of the next tier if you're close, I don't think anyone here is suggesting jumping in AP values unless it's to the next tier

 

[Armorchompy]

Easily tearing through someone's flesh with attacks that aren't piercing in nature is definitely grounds for upscaling, unless they're doing the same to you in which case you're both glass cannons, or examples of the sort

 

[KLOL506]

"And I think that even if it creates complications, we still need to allow upscaling in cases where it isn't close to a tier boundary. In most situations it probably won't matter since visually the profiles will be unaffected, but it needs to be kept in mind."

You mean just jumping people from 300 Gigatons to 400 Gigatons? That's not really upscaling in my mind, upscaling is when you jump to the Baseline of the next tier if you're close, I don't think anyone here is suggesting jumping in AP values unless it's to the next tier

This. Again, we really need to remember and keep in mind that upscaling is only valid when you are close enough to jump tiers, don't use it for anything else. That is basically the only time it should really be allowed.

 

[Damage3245]

You mean just jumping people from 300 Gigatons to 400 Gigatons? That's not really upscaling in my mind, upscaling is when you jump to the Baseline of the next tier if you're close, I don't think anyone here is suggesting jumping in AP values unless it's to the next tier

This. Again, we really need to remember and keep in mind that upscaling is only valid when you are close enough to jump tiers, don't use it for anything else. That is basically the only time it should really be allowed.

But this introduces an inconsistency.

You're saying "It's okay for these characters to be rated as higher values for showing superiority, but it's not okay for these characters in identical situations to be rated as higher values." Even though there is no objective difference between the two scenarios.

It makes zero sense to me.

Either do it for all of them, or do it for none of them. Why keep this arbitrary standard of the tier borders being the sole necessary qualification for upscaling?

Why the baseline of the next tier? Is there some kind of measurable standard we can use to say "This character can be rated 1.15x higher than this other character BUT ABSOLUTELY NOT ANY HIGHER"?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

"It makes zero sense to me."

Well it does to me... I mean the Tiering System exists and Tier Borders exist and I only think upscaling should apply in those cases, otherwise it will lead to upscaling chains that people will for sure abuse

 

[Damage3245]

The Tiering System, objectively speaking, doesn't exist. It exists on the wiki for practical purposes because we don't want to list "440 Megatons" on a profile when we can list Mountain level of Tier 7-A instead. And it can be useful as a shorthand for checking which characters are comparable to each other by seeing if they have the same tier.

But objectively, there is no reason for you to say that multiplying one character's AP by 1.3x for fulfilling certain conditions (i.e. demonstrating clear physical superiority through one-shotting) is totally okay, but multiplying one character's AP by 1.3x for fulfilling identical conditions is totally not okay.

If it is open to abuse, then trying to restrict it so that it is only arbitrarily available to those close to a tier boundary is not the only solution to the problem.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Once again, if you want to say the Tiering System doesn’t exist and we shouldn’t use it as a bar for anything, then all of this becomes null in general, so no, I will not entertain the scenario that the Tiering System does exist

I think only using upscaling for when it upscales to the next tier is best and restricts abuse

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Here are the things that need to be tied down

1. Do we have a specific number difference that you need to be from the next tier's baseline to upscale
2. Do we treat all upscaling as a case by case
3. What type of feats of superiority do you need to upscale

I'm not sure I could give any note but in regards to the 3 things DemonGodMitch asked..

1. I don't know what a good number difference would be for upscaling.

2. Yes, considering verses very on how much stronger you'd need to be to stomp someone, I'd say a case by case basis is best.

3. If characters start tearing through someone with minimum to no effort or casually backhanding them and killing them while claiming they haven't used a fraction of their true power, you could also use statements like a character being "magnitudes" greater in power.

 

[Damage3245]

Once again, if you want to say the Tiering System doesn’t exist and we shouldn’t use it as a bar for anything, then all of this becomes null in general, so no, I will not entertain the scenario that the Tiering System does exist

I think only using upscaling for when it upscales to the next tier is best and restricts abuse

I don't see how you mean it will become null in general, unless you mean the very concept of upscaling becomes null?

But can you give me an example of real scenario from a verse where this abuse would come into effect if we permitted "Upscaling base on unquestionable superiority for all cases"?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I don't see how you mean it will become null in general, unless you mean the very concept of upscaling becomes null?

But can you give me an example of real scenario from a verse where this abuse would come into effect if we permitted "Upscaling base on unquestionable superiority for all cases"?

I simply mean if we say there’s no tiering system, then upscaling doesn’t exist as there would be no markers/bars to upscale to at all, we have a tiering system and upscaling is based on that system in my book

As for abuse, series with long scaling chains, if we assign an upscaling rule of 1.3x or something, people could potentially jump from the very bottom of the tier to the next tier simply because of a multiplier we grant to all upscaling that doesn’t involve a tier jump

 

[Damage3245]

For series that have multipliers stacking on top of each other, we require a higher burden of proof than just a low multiplier by itself.

So couldn't we have similar requirements in the case of upscaling chains, that if the results get too high without supportive evidence then it is declared invalid?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

For series that have multipliers stacking on top of each other, we require a higher burden of proof than just a low multiplier by itself.

So couldn't we have similar requirements in the case of upscaling chains, that if the results get too high without supportive evidence then it is declared invalid?

I mean I guess I could accept that to some extent, but it would need to be a clearly defined upscaling rule

 

[Agnaa]

I don't see how you mean it will become null in general, unless you mean the very concept of upscaling becomes null?

But can you give me an example of real scenario from a verse where this abuse would come into effect if we permitted "Upscaling base on unquestionable superiority for all cases"?

It would turn a verse with a 100x multiplier into a 130x multiplier, which is quite a jump.

The only way I'd accept upscaling outside of tier jumps is if it's applied in exactly the same way it is to tier jumps currently; i.e. you can never stack multiple feats of upscaling, and you can never stack upscaling with stated multipliers.

 

[Wokistan]

Damage conceded on upscaling by Armorchompy's proposal, so I think we're good here, I'll wait for others

What is his proposal? I'd also made arguments for just negating it entirely.