Regarding Tier Rating-Specific Categories

[The_Impress]

This is a proposal for an overtime revision to our wiki's categories.

Currently on the profiles, to signify tier, we use Tier 9, but in my opinion, this is too unspecific and at the end of the day, a pointless category, never do we really need tier research on that expansive a scale, and this leads ro alotta issues with reasonably finding matching ratings for anything, which is a very notable issue for both matchmaking, which no matter your outlook we should consider, and when factoring in category intersection lists and tier-border revisions, content revisions.

So my proposal is for us to list tier ratings-encompassing categories, i.e. 9-B, 9-A, High 8-C, Low 7-B and so on and so forth, this will lead to far more specificity and precision in our categories and make matchmaking and content revisions VASTLY easier.

I know this is a large ask, but considering we have done far more frivolous sitewide revisions, and categories alone are such a minor part of the wiki they don't harm anyone if left unchanged, I think this can very well be applied overtime and will be appreciated if it is indeed applied.

 

[Armorchompy]

I agree.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

As said on Discord, I've suggested this same thing in the past. I agree.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think someone suggested this before, but it got rejected. But I'd support it if some people were willing to help out. But I have a feeling Antvasima is going to reject it again.

 

[The_Impress]

I think someone suggested this before, but it got rejected. But I'd support it if some people were willing to help out. But I have a feeling Antvasima is going to reject it again.

We have staff and workforce for it, and like, this is a pretty great update to our category structure

 

[Armorchompy]

Also random users can just casually contribute to it if they're aware of it.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Only reason I could see it getting rejected would be because of how much profiles would need to be modified. But then it happens for every site wide revisions, so it would just take a lot of time.

I agree with it tho.

 

[The_Impress]

this is staff only smh

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I agree with this heavily. I hate having to go to a tier category and the characters are displayed in alphabetical order with no regard to their actual tier.

 

[Moritzva]

I agree if we are capable of making it happen.

 

[QuasiYuri]

this is staff only smh

Didn't see it was one, srry. Always comment every thread I find good to follow.

 

[SamanPatou]

I totally agree, it's something I always thought would have been useful.

 

[DarkGrath]

This does seem like a pretty large workload for something relatively minor and insignificant. Both of these points have been mentioned previously on the thread.

However, if it's feasible to pull it off, it's pretty much an objective improvement over what we currently have. So, I obviously wouldn't mind the idea.

 

[Agnaa]

never do we really need tier research on that expansive a scale

We kinda do though. Tiers 2, 1, and 0 in particular. I also imagine that even the broad categories were useful when revising the borders for tier 5/4/3 a while back. The way they are now does currently serve a purpose. Also, it lets members browse those broad categories, we consider them important enough to be linked in our wiki's navbar.

Also, there are many more things that should be applied before this. I think Ant has a better idea than I do, but moving all respect threads to blog posts, updating our standards on profile pictures & using fanart are two things I consider more important than this. And they're both sorely needing members to apply them.

I am okay with this being placed somewhere in the project queue, though.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Isn't the fanart thing like kind of settled? If the verse has no official art, just use the fanart and credit the artist.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'm just gonna @Antvasima since he's gonna have to see this anyway

 

[Agnaa]

Isn't the fanart thing like kind of settled? If the verse has no official art, just use the fanart and credit the artist.

Apparently there were worries about there being a large amount of unsourced fanart, that needs to be identified and replaced.

 

[The_Impress]

never do we really need tier research on that expansive a scale

We kinda do though. Tiers 2, 1, and 0 in particular.

They're a quarter of the number of tiers, arguably the least important ones for alot of users.

I also imagine that even the broad categories were useful when revising the borders for tier 5/4/3 a while back.

This can be retained in tier categories as well with negligible hassle

The way they are now does currently serve a purpose. Also, it lets members browse those broad categories, we consider them important enough to be linked in our wiki's navbar.

Would the members be advantaged with having categories broad enough to have trillions of amounts of difference between high ends and low ends? It's blatant misunderstanding bait

Also, there are many more things that should be applied before this. I think Ant has a better idea than I do, but moving all respect threads to blog posts, updating our standards on profile pictures & using fanart are two things I consider more important than this. And they're both sorely needing members to apply them.

I really don't, they're fairly trivial revisions that are essentially resolved and the actual amount of workforce required to apply them is negligible at the absolute best, for example the respect thread revisions from where we last left them were being considered to be reduced to comics only and even then, alotta files just don't have respect thread linked, same with fanart. These are revisions verse supporters should take up, not wiki staff

I am okay with this being placed somewhere in the project queue, though.

I'm not, this is a more crucial revision for long term, and the more we delay it the less feasible it gets.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think the "Tier 9" and whatever categories can be kept, I see no reason they shouldn't co-exist. But I do agree this is a pretty important revision.

 

[Agnaa]

They're a quarter of the number of tiers, arguably the least important ones for alot of users.

This can be retained in tier categories as well with negligible hassle

To clarify, I'm not trying to imply that the status quo needs to be maintained for those reasons. But you were arguing that the tier categories as they are now are useless. They are not. I can say this while also acknowledging that your suggestion would be more useful.

Would the members be advantaged with having categories broad enough to have trillions of amounts of difference between high ends and low ends?

Yeah, having a few broader categories for orders of magnitude of destruction (street to small building, urban, city > mountain, island > continent, moon > large planet, star > solar systems, and galaxy > universe) is pretty useful for casual visitors seeing popular characters who lie at those strengths. Having 6x as many categories is too overwhelming and difficult to fit in our taskbar. Sometimes less is more, choice paralysis is a thing, etc. etc.

But do refer to above about how this is not an argument against applying this change, but an acknowledgement of the utility our current system has.

I really don't, they're fairly trivial revisions that are essentially resolved and the actual amount of workforce required to apply them is negligible at the absolute best, for example the respect thread revisions from where we last left them were being considered to be reduced to comics only and even then, alotta files just don't have respect thread linked, same with fanart. These are revisions verse supporters should take up, not wiki staff

If the workforce is negligible, then why would delaying it until they're done matter? If they're so easy to do, help push them forward.

I'm not, this is a more crucial revision for long term, and the more we delay it the less feasible it gets.

I don't think "Members need to be able to find matches more easily" is more crucial than "We have inaccurate information on our profiles" and "We are stealing artwork without crediting the artists". Every revision we have gets less feasible the more we delay it.

 

[The_Impress]

If the workforce is negligible, then why would delaying it until they're done matter? If they're so easy to do, help push them forward

Because you or whoever is running that revision, is being inefficient in applying them and my revisions shouldn't be penalized for them. Just because a cog is being rickety doesn't mean you stop the whole machine.

I don't think "Members need to be able to find matches more easily" is more crucial than "We have inaccurate information on our profiles" and "We are stealing artwork without crediting the artists".

It is more crucial than "arbitrary complaints about comics-focused rating standards being extended to all, when we never even considered to begin with for that one verse" and "Reminder on basic shit listed in the rules themselves"

Every revision we have gets less feasible the more we delay it.

So let this one get accepted in contrast of holding it hostage for revisions already essentially inputted on.

 

[Agnaa]

Because you or whoever is running that revision, is being inefficient in applying them and my revisions shouldn't be penalized for them. Just because a cog is being rickety doesn't mean you stop the whole machine.

So let this one get accepted in contrast of holding it hostage for revisions already essentially inputted on.

Or maybe you shouldn't divert helpful volunteers into a project that does little to make the wiki better, while abandoning all projects that don't strike your fancy.

I'm trying to look at where we should put resources by what makes the wiki the most better, not by whichever one you want to direct people to.

It is more crucial than "arbitrary complaints about comics-focused rating standards being extended to all, when we never even considered to begin with for that one verse" and "Reminder on basic shit listed in the rules themselves"

The currently accepted rules-text for the RT revision will require updating profiles that aren't comics. There's over 1500 pages with a Feats section and most of them (from my experience) link to RTs. I don't really care if you think that revision's going too far, I think it's going too far, but since it's been accepted in that state it needs to be implemented, and given the nature of it, resources should be put there first.

And, my friend, the latter isn't "reminding people of basic rules", it requires actually going through profiles to replace or source fanart.

 

[The_Impress]

Or maybe you shouldn't divert helpful volunteers into a project that does little to make the wiki better, while abandoning all projects that don't strike your fancy.

I'm trying to look at where we should put resources by what makes the wiki the most better, not by whichever one you want to direct people to.

You're misattributing verse supporter projects to staff projects, we don't need staff effort to research the fanart thing OR the respect thread thing, they're things that can only be understood and distinguished by the supporters of the verse themselves.

This revision is a staff effort since this is reformatting appatent info.

The currently accepted rules-text for the RT revision will require updating profiles that aren't comics. There's over 1500 pages with a Feats section and most of them (from my experience) link to RTs.

Not to my experience, you're inflating the number vastly.

And honestly if you can't gather supporters to apply those revisions then I feel either the revisions are not a fraction of the accepted state you forced them into, or your revisions aren't relevant in the first place for people to bother

And, my friend, the latter isn't "reminding people of basic rules", it requires actually going through profiles to replace or source fanart.

How is this something volunteers and staff should be concerned with? This is completely a verse supporter project, and no this has always been a basic rule you were always supposed to do.

 

[Agnaa]

You're misattributing verse supporter projects to staff projects, we don't need staff effort to research the fanart thing OR the respect thread thing, they're things that can only be understood and distinguished by the supporters of the verse themselves.

This is a staff effort since this is reformatting appatent info.

Presumably staff support verses as well. And there's also no way we can say "Okay, everyone on the site, apply this to your own verses in your own time" with zero oversight, not even an announcement, and expect to get jack shit done.

Not to my experience, you're inflating the number vastly.

And honestly if you can't gather supporters to apply those revisions then I feel either the revisions are not a fraction of the accepted state you forced them into, or your revisions aren't relevant in the first place for people to bother

First on the accusation that I'm inflating numbers, I got 1500 from WhatLinksHere. I cannot inflate that.

Second on the accusation that I "forced them into an accepted state", I was not pushing for the ******* RT revision. I was to some extent arguing against it, saying that some of their concerns were invalid, and that regardless it would be a lot of work for little gain.

Why are you accusing me of things like that?

How is this something volunteers and staff should be concerned with? This is completely a verse supporter project, and no this has always been a basic rule you were always supposed to do.

Jesus Christ.

I am not saying it was not a basic rule.

I am saying that it was a basic rule that some people (not me, I was not pushing for this) were worried was being disobeyed too much. And so they want to set up a project to resolve it.

 

[The_Impress]

Presumably staff support verses as well.

Presumably other users too as well, staff aren't the only users who exist onsite

And there's also no way we can say "Okay, everyone on the site, apply this to your own verses in your own time" with zero oversight, not even an announcement, and expect to get jack shit done.

Then what are you asking to do, doing it on a single staff-locked thread and THEN expecting it to get done?

First on the accusation that I'm inflating numbers, I got 1500 from WhatLinksHere. I cannot inflate that.

You're inflating an extremely high number of those are respect threads.

Second on the accusation that I "forced them into an accepted state", I was not pushing for the ******* RT revision. I was to some extent arguing against it, saying that some of their concerns were invalid, and that regardless it would be a lot of work for little gain.

Why are you accusing me of things like that?

You're automatically presuming a general you as a specific one, just attribute it to the person handling the revision, I thought this was contextually apparent :/

 

[Teezar]

this is staff only smh

I'm actually seeing a 98% chance qwasiyuri and agnaa will be staff's in near future.
tho don't know how you staffs make others as staff's.

 

[Agnaa]

Presumably other users too as well, staff aren't the only users who exist onsite

And staff also aren't the only ones who can apply this revision, since the vast majority of profiles are unlocked. Volunteers are what matter.

Then what are you asking to do, doing it on a single staff-locked thread and THEN expecting it to get done?

Ant wanted to create some sort of wiki management thread for the profile picture thing. Respect threads could probably be split between volunteers who'd contact/collaborate with knowledgeable members on the verses they end up getting.

You're inflating an extremely high number of those are respect threads.

Fair enough, I just selected 10 random pages which linked to the Feats page, 2 had an RT, 8 did not. I was wrong to say they were the majority.

You're automatically presuming a general you as a specific one, just attribute it to the person handling the revision, I thought this was contextually apparent :/

It wasn't apparent, especially since the sentence prior was pretty specifically directed towards me.

Even then, it seems like a weird charge that it was "forced into an accepted state" after over 200 posts of debating between supporters and detractors, with over 2 dozen people weighing in.

 

[The_Impress]

And staff also aren't the only ones who can apply this revision, since the vast majority of profiles are unlocked. Volunteers are what matter.

Then try to find volunteers for the verses instead of holding the staff hostage

Ant wanted to create some sort of wiki management thread for the profile picture thing. Respect threads could probably be split between volunteers who'd contact/collaborate with knowledgeable members on the verses they end up getting.

Yes, this is a feasible solution, also one that doesn't really make sense to bury this revision for

Fair enough, I just selected 10 random pages which linked to the Feats page, 2 had an RT, 8 did not. I was wrong to say they were the majority.

ùwú

Even then, it seems like a weird charge that it was "forced into an accepted state" after over 200 posts of debating between supporters and detractors, with over 2 dozen people weighing in.

This was in regards to you not having found volunteers for the thread, and I think I justifiably felt suspicious then how much support do they really have.

I'm actually seeing a 98% chance qwasiyuri and agnaa will be staff's in near future.
tho don't know how you staffs make others as staff's.

Derailment + Agnaa has already been offered staff multiple times so he's basically honorary staff + it's in site rules I THINK

 

[Agnaa]

Then try to find volunteers for the verses instead of holding the staff hostage

I think holding appealing but less important revisions hostage for less appealing but more important revisions is a good thing, actually.

 

[The_Impress]

I think holding appealing but less important revisions hostage for less appealing but more important revisions is a good thing, actually.

As said, you're presuming a staff revision project is comparable to a verse supporter revision project. Both of these revisions have a distinction in which users they're relevant to, hell I think alotta staff members don't possess any verses where the fanart compaint or the respect thread complaint is valid

 

[Agnaa]

Well, if everyone else thinks that distinction's valid then so be it. Guess we can wait for Ant to see if there's any outstanding revisions I'm not quite clued into.

 

[The_Impress]

there are more bureaucrats on thsi wiki than just ant smh

 

[Agnaa]

I remember Ant in particular keeping a list of upcoming and outstanding site-wide revisions.

 

[KingTempest]

Oh wow, this is a lot.

 

[Damage3245]

I think it's a great idea in theory. Implementing it would be a bit of work, but worth it in the long run.

 

[KLOL506]

Since this is just Category adding, couldn't the categories be added by a script by letting it find out which characters are which tier (Like for example, said character is 8-C) and then assigning them that tier category? The tier pages are the easy part.

 

[The_Impress]

I don't know, I'm not familiar with how bots work on the wiki to be honest

 

[KLOL506]

I don't know, I'm not familiar with how bots work on the wiki to be honest

Perhaps you could ask some staff member who is well-versed in using scripts and see if they can do it.

 

[DarkGrath]

While my understanding of how bots work is only rudimentary, and it’s possible someone with more experience could make it work, I doubt it’d be that easy. You’d need to tell the bot to look for some specific string on the page (i.e: “Tier:” or something along those lines) and then to add a category to the page based on whatever comes after that string (i.e: If it says they are “8-C” after the part that says “Tier:”, then add the 8-C category to the page).

Problem is, I’m not sure if the bot could be programmed to distinguish between the tier section, and just the word “tier” being used in some other context on the page. There’s also the issue of certain pages that might have just slightly incorrect formatting which may break such coding. There’s a very, very high likelihood that trying to apply this method to every page would eventually result in a catastrophic error.

 

[KLOL506]

While my understanding of how bots work is only rudimentary, and it’s possible someone with more experience could make it work, I doubt it’d be that easy. You’d need to tell the bot to look for some specific string on the page (i.e: “Tier:” or something along those lines) and then to add a category to the page based on whatever comes after that string (i.e: If it says they are “8-C” after the part that says “Tier:”, then add the 8-C category to the page).

Problem is, I’m not sure if the bot could be programmed to distinguish between the tier section, and just the word “tier” being used in some other context on the page. There’s also the issue of certain pages that might have just slightly incorrect formatting which may break such coding. There’s a very, very high likelihood that trying to apply this method to every page would eventually result in a catastrophic error.

I believe only the number values need to be the ones that are targeted, like "9-A", "8-C", "8-A" and the like.