Regarding Pre Crisis Superman

[Ryukama]

If Superman has consistently shown feats on a Stellar Level, and there is only one event in which he did a Multi-Galaxy feat, then why isn't it treated as an outlier?

Was there something in particular about this event that set it apart from other cases, such as Superman being transformed, powered up or something along those lines?

 

[FanofRPGs]

If Superman has consistently shown feats on a Stellar Level, and there is only one event in which he did a Multi-Galaxy feat, then why isn't it treated as an outlier?
Was there something in particular about this event that set it apart from other cases, such as Superman being transformed, powered up or something along those lines?

he has broken space and time twice

 

[Ryukama]

@Fan I believe that "breaking space and time" is something generally considered unquantifiable hax.

 

[CaptainFalcon64]

So what your saying is that he should be classified at Solar System level do to his struggling with other character of similar tiers?, I don't see why not.

 

[Ryukama]

@Falcon unless Superman has some explanation for this feat, such as being powered up or transformed. That's why I put this in Questions Board and not Content Revision. I don't know if he does have an explanation for doing this outlandish feat and I am asking if he does, and if not, why don't we treat it like an outlier such as we do in every other case?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm assuming it's because all of his previous feats were casual, and this was him actually trying. Like if Saitama got a MSS feat, we'd probably upgrade him for that.

 

[Antoniofer]

ˆYeah, should be for that, don't known much about this Supa but he has made several insane feats like absorving the magic in the universe, surviving in the center of a big bang doesn't sound like an outlier at all.

Off topic: isn't pre Supa the same Earth Two Supa?

 

[Ryukama]

@Cal Well on the profile it seems to say things that suggest he typically struggles with these 4-B characters. "Characters around or slightly above his own power level, such as Mongul, Daxamites, or other Kryptonians could generally harm him" and that he "has been shown to tire when fighting incredibly strong opponents" And if he shows even the most infintessimal amount of geniune struggle against 4-B feats, then 3-B is completely out of the question.

@Antonio I am not sure if "absorving the magic in the universe" equates to Tier 3 or if that is even entirely quantifiable. Also please do not derail this thread with unrelated questions.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The thing is, they got upgraded with him too on this site. (e.g. Krypto , Supergirl , Golden Age Superma

Also, don't we normally take the high end for characters? Otherwise, Hulk would be around Spidey's level, Goku would be laser level, and Arceus would be meteor level?

EDIT: The ones I listed were more inconsistencies than low ends.

 

[Ryukama]

@Cal I am talking about the villains that are on his level. If Superman can get hurt and struggle against 4-B characters, then him performing one 3-B is an absolute outlier unless he was transformed or something.

And no we take the mid end for characters. Otherwise Hulk would be High 3-A.

 

[Huesito88]

Pre crisi Superman would be iron Brad level. Champ would be table level

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Well, there's True Darkseid, who's even above Supes' feat.

 

[Ryukama]

@Cal Darkseid has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. Also you can't compare a godly being using lesser avatars and being vastly powerful in his true form to someone cosnsitently struggling with attacks of a certain power than performing one feat that's quintillions of times stronger out of nowhere.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm actually fairly sure we don't use specifically high or mid-end for comic characters, but instead just any feats that are reasonable without being over the top. For instance, Binary's absolute best feat is 4-B (which is what she's rated as), but it's accepted due to not being contradictory and being done by a character who has faced Tier 4 foes, before.

On the subject of Pre-Crisis Superman, I'm fairly certain we rate him as 3-B at his peak because he is an incredibly, incredibly inconsistent character. We obviously cannot in good conscience rate him 2-A for fighting the Anti-Monitor in a story in which AM was portrayed as a multiversal foe, but we can rate him 3-B based on one of the best feats he performed that doesn't involve powerscaling. Considering he has demonstrated incredibly casual tier 4 feats multiple other times, while a vastly superior showing, his 3-B feat is not something totally out of the realm of plausibility, as 2-A Pre-Crisis Superman would be.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

But isn't Darkseid mainly a Superman villain? Only reason I brought him up. I assumed so from the television shows.

Anyway, I think I figured it out. The ones that can hurt him are probably featless, and their only scaling is through Superman. So if Supes gets upgraded, they do to. For example, look at Mongul , one of the Superman villains. I'm sure he's a Supes villain because in Pre's profile, Mongul is one of those villains you're mentioning. It's like in Hit's and Golden Frieza's case. They don't have any MG feats, but they're scaled that way. Superman's durability only comes from getting hit from guys his level. If it said something like "Survived an explosion that disintegrated a solar system" that would change things.

EDIT: Azzy has a better reason, so disregard this one.

 

[Ryukama]

@Azzy If Superman's one instance of being 3-B isn't all that unreasonable, then why do we state that he is usually 4-B and that the 3-B feat is a one time thing instead of having him as 3-B? And if he has struggled against characters that are 4-B as well (which I am not sure of but the profile seems to imply), then yes him being 3-B is completely over the top.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Ryu

Because we're incredibly conservative with him due to, again, him being very, very inconsistent, even from a comic character standpoint.

Said 4-B characters are, 99% of the time, only 4-B because they consistently hurt Superman and beings of his level. You can essentially replace their tier with "whatever Superman's is".

 

[Ryukama]

@Azzy I see that he is inconsistent. But I'd think that his 3-B should be something that stands on its own without needing to be listed that he isn't usually this powerful. And if he isn't typically this powerful and this is outside of what he is normally capable of, that does seem to be an outlier.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Ryu

We assume it is not usually what he is capable of because he rarely demonstrates his full power. I agree the rating itself is rather confusing, but it seems to be the best option at the moment, perhaps unless Ant or Kav deem there a better one.

 

[Ryukama]

@Azzy If Superman is always restraining during these 4-B feats and using full power with 3-B, should we list it as that instead as opposed to the profile seemingly implying this is some outlandish thing he can't normally do. I think keys for "Restrained" and "Full Powered" sound fine.

Regardless His "Multi-Galactic" stat for Lifting Strength should be changed to "likely much higher," since we don't scale Striking Strength feats to Lifting Strength feats.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Ryu

I would agree, those that decision is up to Ant.

 

[Ryukama]

Alright thanks Azzy.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Not a problem, man.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I mostly agree with Azathoth that this is due to that Pre-Crisis Superman never truly displayed the upper limitations of his power in any other instance that I know of. Virtually everything else that he did was incredibly casual.

In addition, the other characters that could harm him were usually simply scaled to whichever level that he himself occupied at the moment, as is the usual praxis for Marvel & DC characters, and Superboy Prime, who was supposed to be of a similar power level to himself, once displayed a universal feat.

However, it is due to the inherent inconsistency of the character that we rate him as 4-B to 3-B depending on the story, but also disregard the complete outlier of Supergirl fighting the Anti-Monitor.

 

[Ryukama]

@Ant alright thanks for explaning.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Ryukama]

You and Azzy pretty much handled my questions and concerns. I guess you could close this thread if you want unless anyone else has something to say.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.