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I think you misunderstood. I didn't suggest the page to be removed, just the standards I mentioned in the OP.
Nonetheless, we can wait.
Nonetheless, we can wait.
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Regarding our Lightning Standards´-
- Thread starter Kepekley23
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SchroKatze
They/Them- 3,869
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What about characters that can move as lightning itself? Such as Beatrice Kirscheise and Gilthunder
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At least my Godwoke is safe, since his attack is the same thing as cloud-to-ground lightning.
Edit: Absa should be safe too; she is literally a thunderstorm architect.
Edit: Absa should be safe too; she is literally a thunderstorm architect.
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iirc Fairy Tail uses this to justify lightning speed lightning magic
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No it doesn't. There is Laxus traveling through thunderclouds ans appearing as a bolt of lightning and his electricity was attracted to a lightning rod.
Mr. Bambu
Suffer-Not-Injustice Bambu
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I have a question that might have been answered but I gotta get back on assignment soon, so here goes, sorry if this is spam.
Before these lenient methods were approved, what was the "speed of lightning" we accepted, and how should we calculate lightning dodging feats in the future? If it helps, cloud-to-ground lightning, according to this (if it is proven to be legitimate lightning, that is) should move at roughly 600,000 m/s (or, 30 meters/50 microseconds).
Before these lenient methods were approved, what was the "speed of lightning" we accepted, and how should we calculate lightning dodging feats in the future? If it helps, cloud-to-ground lightning, according to this (if it is proven to be legitimate lightning, that is) should move at roughly 600,000 m/s (or, 30 meters/50 microseconds).
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a) No, the characters are not dodging the electrons.
b) The standards aren't supposed to proof that something moves with the speed of lightning, but they are supposed to proof that something is and behaves like scientific real lightning instead of magical energy bolts.
The speed then follows from the fact that real lightning is that fast.
Being like real lightning is sufficient to be treated as such, you wouldn't want proof that light moves at lightspeed. (Though I would consider specifying the "some properties" to "at minimum a few of these properties" like with the laser dodging page)
btw. if something behaves very unrealistic it can be disregarded despite the criteria.
All of the prior is of course under the assumption that the lightning fulfills the obligatory voltage/energy criteria. In regards to the possibility of low end showings: That ultimately falls into the outlier nieche of debates, in my opinion. In a situation in which you would scale the creator of the lightning, based on the feat, the criteria should be fulfilled, while in a situation where you would also not do such a dura-to-AP scaling the criteria wouldn't be considered satisfied. In other words this is not a problem with the criteria, but a problem of classifying the AP of the lightning attack as it occurs at every other attempt to classify AP of something as well. (Also my impression is that lightning often doesn't cause a whole lot of environmental damage. I think it depends a lot on what it hits actually)
b) The standards aren't supposed to proof that something moves with the speed of lightning, but they are supposed to proof that something is and behaves like scientific real lightning instead of magical energy bolts.
The speed then follows from the fact that real lightning is that fast.
Being like real lightning is sufficient to be treated as such, you wouldn't want proof that light moves at lightspeed. (Though I would consider specifying the "some properties" to "at minimum a few of these properties" like with the laser dodging page)
btw. if something behaves very unrealistic it can be disregarded despite the criteria.
All of the prior is of course under the assumption that the lightning fulfills the obligatory voltage/energy criteria. In regards to the possibility of low end showings: That ultimately falls into the outlier nieche of debates, in my opinion. In a situation in which you would scale the creator of the lightning, based on the feat, the criteria should be fulfilled, while in a situation where you would also not do such a dura-to-AP scaling the criteria wouldn't be considered satisfied. In other words this is not a problem with the criteria, but a problem of classifying the AP of the lightning attack as it occurs at every other attempt to classify AP of something as well. (Also my impression is that lightning often doesn't cause a whole lot of environmental damage. I think it depends a lot on what it hits actually)
Watts or joules? That is a huge difference here, because lightning only lasts a fraction of a second.Antoniofer said:
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1) They aren't dodging the signal.
2) Except that's a textbook non sequitur since not all electric currents travel at the speed of a lightning bolt, despite the fact they fit nearly all the criteria you have set up.
a. Electric currents exist; and behave similarly to lightning bolts.
b. Electric currents do not 'have to travel at the speed of lightning; they are more often than not considerably slower than an electrical discharge like that.
Therefore;
c. Saying that electric currents that behave like lightning travel at the speed of lightning is a non-sequitur.
I addressed this in the OP.
2) Except that's a textbook non sequitur since not all electric currents travel at the speed of a lightning bolt, despite the fact they fit nearly all the criteria you have set up.
a. Electric currents exist; and behave similarly to lightning bolts.
b. Electric currents do not 'have to travel at the speed of lightning; they are more often than not considerably slower than an electrical discharge like that.
Therefore;
c. Saying that electric currents that behave like lightning travel at the speed of lightning is a non-sequitur.
I addressed this in the OP.
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I can agree to these standards. Especially with the powerscaling bolts thing, since it seems like it can lead to some heavy calc stacking. If the lightning comes from some supernatural entity and it tags/hurts someone of that level then we could say it's vastly stronger and faster than regular lightning. However if it's natural lightning with nothing to suggest it being any special, then it's just a low end showing for that character.
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I actually agree with this, you can pretty much upgrade practically any verse with feats below tier 7 into tier 7. Likewise, I feel as if the 'if an electrical attack can hurt a character that has certain level of durability it can be considered to be 440,000 M/S'. Likewise, I do agree that lightning should only be considered to be that aforementioned speed if it's cloud-to-ground or (in my opinion) if there are specific statements that state that said electricity moves at such speed in the first place.
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Mmm... Didn't take that into account, but iirc, lightning has a duration of 70 - 10 us, so that turns the lightning yield in a range of 120000 J to 1.68 gigajoules, that seems lower than the other end so I may be wrong in that timeframe.
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As you mentioned in posts above, we shouldn't make someone Building level+ in dura because lollightning. You may tank some electricity attack with 1000000000 volts and 1 amper, but 1000000 volts and 1000 ampers? I'm dead, but 1000 ampers is more than fatal for human. You can't really say how much durability has someone if they actually tanked lightning bolt without any injuries. Will return to the thread later.
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Well, let's wait for DontTalk to wake up, so we can gradually work out a solution here.
That said, as I keep repeating, threads about changing the fundamental standards of this wiki should strictly be kept in the staff forum, especially if they are highlighted, as they easily get far too chaotic and out of control otherwise.
That said, as I keep repeating, threads about changing the fundamental standards of this wiki should strictly be kept in the staff forum, especially if they are highlighted, as they easily get far too chaotic and out of control otherwise.
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We would also have to be very careful to evaluate how to properly improve the descriptions in our current Lightning Dodging Feats page, rather than do any hasty and shoddy sudden changes to our system that will leave us considerably worse off than before.
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Addressing the durability thing, I agree with how there's a lot of variation in surviving a lightning bolt; there was actually a guy in real life who survived getting hit by lightning multiple times (Roy Sullivan): http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/most-lightning-strikes-survived
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Pretty sure he only survived the splash effect of lightning; a direct hit from a lightning bolt would pretty much cause atomic destruction to a human.
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Yeah, that still sounds like rubber shoes and the ground took most of the impact. It's a big difference from if he was standing on a metal pole and a his body was used as a lightning rod.
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As should be kinda obvious from the OP, I'm in agreement.
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Finally this has been adressed!! I'm completely agree and support this idea.
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I'm also in agreement with the OP.
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I agree with this
But oh god please tell me this doesn't effect Infamous......
But oh god please tell me this doesn't effect Infamous......
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It could
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Well at least it's only Infamous 1
Twisted_Little_Raven
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I'll be there to protect rwby ^_^
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I think it would be better if it was a case by case basis, but I'm not going to change anything.
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I'll leave this links here that might be needed later as helpful resources & remember to read this carefully:
Speed of electromagnetic waves/Electromagnetism in a vacuum (No air) is about the Speed of Light (The fastest speed possible).
Link 1: http://www.physicsclassroom.com/mmedia/waves/em.cfm
"An electromagnetic wave transports its energy through a vacuum at a speed of 3.00 x 108 m/s (a speed value commonly represented by the symbol c)."
Link 2: http://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/standard/physics/health_physics/using_the_spectrum/revision/1/
"In a vacuum, all electromagnetic waves travel at approximately 3 x 10^8 m/s - the fastest speed possible."
Speed of Electromagnetic waves/Electromagnetism through air (representing the insulator) is Relativistic+, at minimum it's sometimes Relativistic: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_electricity?wprov=sfla1
"In everyday electrical and electronic devices, the signals or energy travel as electromagnetic waves typically on the order of 50%―99% of the speed of light..."
"...and almost that fast when air is the insulator."
Speed of electronmagnetic waves/Electromagnetism through matter is Relativistic+, at minimum is Relativistic (dependent on what matter it passes through): http://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/standard/physics/health_physics/using_the_spectrum/revision/1/
"When electromagnetic waves travel through matter (for example, light through air or glass), they travel a bit slower than this but rarely less than half as fast as in a vacuum."
Speed of an Electron is about Sub-Relativistic: https://education.jlab.org/qa/electron_01.html
"A calculation shows that the electron is traveling at about 2,200 kilometers per second. That's less than 1% of the speed of light, but it's fast enough to get it around the Earth in just over 18 seconds."
The speed of the return stroke of lightning is Relativistic: http://www.maine.gov/mema/prepare/prep_display.shtml?163524
"The return stroke (the current that cause the visible flash) moves upward at a speed of about 320,000,000 ft per second or about 220,000,000 miles per hour (about 1/3 the speed of light)."
^ The Speed of the Return Stroke of lightning mentioned here is travels around 0.3c (Relativistic): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning?wprov=sfla1
"The rate at which the return stroke current travels has been found to be around 1×108 m/s."
The speed of the Step Leader of lightning is Massively Hypersonic (Read the last paragraph & look at the diagram on the right): http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/science/science_initiation_stepped_leader.htm
"While the stepped leader develops downward at a speed of 200,000 miles per hour, the leader would move much faster if it didn't pause between each of its steps downward."
Speed of electromagnetic waves/Electromagnetism in a vacuum (No air) is about the Speed of Light (The fastest speed possible).
Link 1: http://www.physicsclassroom.com/mmedia/waves/em.cfm
"An electromagnetic wave transports its energy through a vacuum at a speed of 3.00 x 108 m/s (a speed value commonly represented by the symbol c)."
Link 2: http://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/standard/physics/health_physics/using_the_spectrum/revision/1/
"In a vacuum, all electromagnetic waves travel at approximately 3 x 10^8 m/s - the fastest speed possible."
Speed of Electromagnetic waves/Electromagnetism through air (representing the insulator) is Relativistic+, at minimum it's sometimes Relativistic: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_electricity?wprov=sfla1
"In everyday electrical and electronic devices, the signals or energy travel as electromagnetic waves typically on the order of 50%―99% of the speed of light..."
"...and almost that fast when air is the insulator."
Speed of electronmagnetic waves/Electromagnetism through matter is Relativistic+, at minimum is Relativistic (dependent on what matter it passes through): http://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/standard/physics/health_physics/using_the_spectrum/revision/1/
"When electromagnetic waves travel through matter (for example, light through air or glass), they travel a bit slower than this but rarely less than half as fast as in a vacuum."
Speed of an Electron is about Sub-Relativistic: https://education.jlab.org/qa/electron_01.html
"A calculation shows that the electron is traveling at about 2,200 kilometers per second. That's less than 1% of the speed of light, but it's fast enough to get it around the Earth in just over 18 seconds."
The speed of the return stroke of lightning is Relativistic: http://www.maine.gov/mema/prepare/prep_display.shtml?163524
"The return stroke (the current that cause the visible flash) moves upward at a speed of about 320,000,000 ft per second or about 220,000,000 miles per hour (about 1/3 the speed of light)."
^ The Speed of the Return Stroke of lightning mentioned here is travels around 0.3c (Relativistic): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning?wprov=sfla1
"The rate at which the return stroke current travels has been found to be around 1×108 m/s."
The speed of the Step Leader of lightning is Massively Hypersonic (Read the last paragraph & look at the diagram on the right): http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/science/science_initiation_stepped_leader.htm
"While the stepped leader develops downward at a speed of 200,000 miles per hour, the leader would move much faster if it didn't pause between each of its steps downward."
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I addressed all of your links in the second paragraph of the OP, my friend. Specially the bit about electricity being as fast as light, which is false.
Speed of an electron can be as low as 1cm/s under some circumstances.At 30 degrees Celsius, the speed can be as high as 60km/s, but it varies.
Speed of an electron can be as low as 1cm/s under some circumstances.At 30 degrees Celsius, the speed can be as high as 60km/s, but it varies.
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https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=3341
That's the drift velocity. Thermal velocity at 16 Celsius can be potentially hypersonic, but it varies.
That's the drift velocity. Thermal velocity at 16 Celsius can be potentially hypersonic, but it varies.
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@Kepekley 1. The electronmagnetic waves in a vacuum is SoL, not electricity.Kepekley23 said:
2. Good info. to know.
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How is anyone so sure that lightning is 5 gigajoules? In reality, lightning is only ONE gigajoule; I just checked and this whole "5-gigajoule" lightning thing is a complete misunderstanding of a sentence on Wikipedia's "harvesting lightning energy" article.
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"A single bolt of lightning carries a relatively large amount of energy (approximately 5 billion joules[1] or about the energy stored in 145 litres of petrol)"
Not sure how this can be misunderstood at all.
Not sure how this can be misunderstood at all.
Mr. Bambu
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@Kep It's the same way speed can be misunderstood- I found a few places saying different values and it seems to be based on the volume of the bolt, so larger bolts have larger energy stores.
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