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Regarding OP Characters and OP abilities...and Tier 1's

Actually we are responding to your points by explaining the situation. This isn't "getting defensive", as you put it - it's necessary to make the discussion be solved. We can't simply pretend we're not seeing the problem at hand.

And even without the activity battle-wise, this poses a problem, yes, when some things start to run the risk of becoming Suggslike - and you must know as well as we do how infamous that is. As I said above, I for one would have no intention of being around a place where the characters are made to be storng for the sake of being strong.

Furthermore, no. That's not how it works, really.

We are authors but our rights in Fiction go as far as our own verse. I explained this above - you can't say Hax Resistance when hax is something that exists in most verses out there. This is beyond your domain as an author, and stealing the rights over hax of another series as if they were your own.

"Who cares?", you ask. The people who read it, those are the ones who care. And if it becomes "They are this powerful because why not" as the standard, eventually the place gets the same treatment as Suggsverse.

Furthermore, we are supposed to have fun... Inside the rights of our own verse and the fun of others as well. Doing NLF is outright walking over the rights of other people's characters by making it so that yours are always in an advantageous situation no matter how fallacious it may sound. And we have a tiering system and rules for a reason. Even fiction needs to make SOME sense, lest it loses quality. I bring again the plot point that was adressed by Dragon, Cross, Sera and others.

Finally, two wrongs don't make one right. Yes, I for one would care if a character could do that with Multiverses just because their creator wants it to be like that, because I would see no purpose nor character. I would just see a walking human bomb without personality that they are trying to call a character.
 
FateAlbane said:
Also, that's a strawman when you say "it sure seems like a witch hunt for 1-A characters" when we're not telling anyone to stop making them and we already agreed that anyone can make them as they want AS LONG as they're not simply Suggsmaterial and are properly justified.

Witch Hunt would be if we were going "Delete all tier 1! You can't make them anymore!" or something of the sort.
Click to expand...
Plus, not to be the strawman again, but aren't wikis about creating and sharing your creations with others? So one would think that allowing people to have a OP-Hax character creation duck measuring contest would be fine, especially if these characters are never featured in fights.

If no actual harm is being done by characters rarely heard about then why bring it up in the first place? Why not just have fun with your creations and just do you? Why give reasons if its supposed to be fun? Are you going to delete pages that are deemed Suggsmaterial?
 
The question you should be making is: Should people MAKE Suggsmaterial in the first place?

I mean, Is becoming like Suggsverse the objective of someone as a Creator?

Shouldn't you actually strive to make your verse, something that you love and put effort into, something to be loved? Something with MEANING?

Being OP is perfectly fine. Being haxxed is nice as well.

Being like Suggs... Is anything but funny. It is rather sad, actually. Verses and characters, series exist and tell us a history. Something like Suggs tells the history of something that was so focused on power, that everything else the verse could have been was sacrificed for it.

Then yes, rather than fun, it becomes sad.
 
Just to make this clear: We're not calling anyone Suggs. This is another strawman.

We're trying to help others and ourselves as creators, as well as the wiki, to improve, in order to go in a better direction for us and our verses in general. Any direction, that is not Suggs. So we can make our verses reach the best of their potential.

Be it powerful, be it dramatic. Be it for the feelings you want to convey, or be it for the thrill of action in battle.

But you can be so much more than Suggs. Why would you stop at that level?

Because we care about this place and most certainly we care about our characters just as much as we know others do.
 
Well we already talk about my opinion about things in another blog before so I have no actual reason to be posting here. (I like everything that I read or watch as long as the characters are interesting) I really just don't see the problem as long as the characters are enjoyable to read. UwU

The real question should be: Why do you mock someone else's creation? I.e. what you just did with Suggs

But to humor you I'll ask it

Should people MAKE Suggsmaterial in the first place?

(Why yes as long as they have fun with it and doesn't infringe on other's fun and games in their verse)

Now I see how it feels to have my queries avoided ^ ^;

Yes, as long as you care about your verse it doesn't matter what others think. It's equally as sad when you shame people for what they make. I feel like you out straw man'd by you just now. :p
 
I never said that you were calling other people suggs tho so no starwmen here :p

I can respect that last post as it proves that your not paranoid as much as I am about you guys preventing artistic creativity XP
 
Actually, it does. Authors don't write for themselves - since it is all already in our minds, we wouldn't need to write if we didn't want to know what others think about it, now would we?

"It doesn't matter what others think" is a wrong approach. Constructive criticism is one of the most important things for writers - and pretty much everything in life - in general.

1. "I like everything that I read or watch as long as the characters are interesting) I really just don't see the problem as long as the characters are enjoyable to read. UwU"

Like Dragon said, we already agreed that it doesn't matter what tier the character is at all, as long as they actually have that depth and a setting. A place as a character. We have absolutely nothing against powerful characters that are interesting or enjoyable to read.

2. "Why do you care so much if it doesn't affect you at all?"

Because it does. And not only me as a user, but the wiki as well. Why do you think people don't go around surfing in Suggsverse all the time? Right, because they dislike the content. If users dislike the content of a place, yes, It will affect the users and the place, as they might lose interest - like I said above, I would distance myself from here without saying a word, actually. And I have friends and readers that outright have prejudice against FCs and OCs because they think most of them are similar to that formula: "Strong for the sake of being strong" and because of that refused when I tried to call them.

And, since you threw my question right back at me, I'll give you the natural answer.

"Should people MAKE Suggsmaterial in the first place?"

...If you have to question me that as an author, you should think more on the subject and the implications of being Suggslike as a whole.
 
Again...

The problem is not having 1-As.

The problem is not being overpowered when compared to most of fiction.

The problem is not having fun with High-Level characters and Beyond-Dimensional ideas.

None of that has ever been, is, or will be a problem inherently. No one here is hating on powerful characters, nor is anyone here saying that they shouldn't exist, or that they should be deleted. Saying that we're having a "Witch Hunt" is incredibly dishonest and is nonsense.

To answer more points: Constructive Criticism is essential. If we close our eyes to every potential problem and issue, and just let people do whatever under the philosophy of "Let them have fun", then the Wiki will stagnate and become worthy of laughter. We need to revise ideas, discuss change, renovate the wiki constantly so that it can thrive, attract more people and be interesting. No one wants to remove anyone's right to make 1-As. What we want is to outlaw characters who are overpowered for overpowering's sake. Who have nothing going from there other than stomping everyone, having all the powers in the world, and resistances to all abilities. Those are stupid, and are indeed comparable to Suggsverse. Nobody cares or likes Suggsverse because it is a pathetic fanfic centered solely about characters busting greater infinities of infinites of Omniverses. That's all it is.

The purpose of FCOC is to have an environment where people can showcase their Fan-Chars and Original Characters, and talk and exchange ideas with other writers. It is not meant for people to start an arms' race of superpowers. A Wiki filled with broken 1-As and Tier 0s will be unappealing to newcomers, and will push away everyone who isn't obsessed with biggatons and levels of infinity.
 
I concede as since I have no 1-As like all of you and since I focus more on lore and character relations than actual powers anyway XD

Your strawmen are over 9000 XP
 
You're the only person joking and strawmaning. I advice you to stop acting like a child, annoyed simply that we're criticizing things.
 
Actually I'm not acting like a child at all as jokes are reasonably accepted in serious situations. ;)

I'm not really complaining about you "criticizing" anyone else, only throwing in my two cent as a contributor here. Plus, I am also very right about being able to do what you want to do Matty.

Strawmen are also acceptable in debating atmospheres if you've never been in a school held debate before.
 
Okay okay, settle down y'all.

Look @Imouto, what the others have said is really true. I myself have seen this almost two years now since i first joined the wikia here (in reference to one of the things Fate and Dragon have tried to talk to you about that the wikia had to deal with), and i can certainly tell you that what they say is 100% true. We had to constantly deal with problems like these and i of course had to. Since that time as a admin to bureaucrat, i had to make sure the wikia doesn't get too similar to the way Suggsverse is acted like.

I'll be honest when i first started to do this along with another user i knew that time, we just only took out the tier 1's or whatever that were pretty bad and of low-quality to clean out the place (TBF, they were made by people who just made them and left and/or of those who aren't active anymore). Then after we had more people onto the next year, i then thought of needing to actually help people out by pointing the negatives and try and work it out with them and giving them time to adjust them. Needless to say, however, ALL OF THEM failed despite being at my most patience with them. I gave them time, patience, and helping, and yet all just go ballistic on me within the first two comments. Which is then where i had no choice, if they happen to not budge through my lending hand to them, but to delete their pages and even ban them for refusing to cooperate (which has actually happened in some of those cases).

And it's kind of really off-handed a bit for you to call this as a sort of witch hunt and calling us paranoid when, again (and as said by Fate), this is something we've had to deal with since i started getting the wikia cleaned up, adjusted, and even more known over-time. That and this being a witch hunt would have been actually called that if it was called it over two years back. Nowadays since last year, me and the others (mostly me, Prom, and ExoSaiyan) actually TRY to go to the creators first to see if we don't have to resort to deleting them off.

Another thing is that while you are correct in that this place is supposed to be fun (or at least what i'm trying to make it all the time to be as ^^;), this wikia behaves similarly like VSBW which is why whenever you see other peoples pages, they always have tiers and stats and reasonings. That's even on my own OC pages as well. And what Fate said is true on this other thing you said. All of us actually care of how our characters are made and like. Just like how everyone loves characters from verses like Dragon Ball to that of the HST to Saint Seiya and stuff not just for their powers but, and more likely so, for their character and personalities and actions...maybe on that last part. This of course extends to just about all others, even moreso (right wordings?) to those that we really like and are interested in.

And as Matt said from earlier, Tier 1's are NOT the only problem we're dealing with. If you actually look up at the earlier comments we've been discussing, you would have at least got an idea of that by now. I am not here to just berate you or whatever word you may use to describe this. I'm just trying to tell you of what others have said and how we, as the wikia's community here, are trying to help improve it and it's contents.
 
Oki dokie

Imouto turns into Plush Imouto

I did actually read through it, I just decided to be a bad imouto XD

I'll take my ban for being a bad Troll-Imouto :(
 
......Can you not think that i'm gonna ban you, please?

Imouto, we're trying to tell you that Tier 1's are not the only problems here on this wikia and, if you look up earlier within this thread, you'd know that i had to deal with other problems in this place as well. Sure i have dealt with them so and so, but they weren't the only ones i had to deal with. Others were of much lower tiers, helping others on adjusting their profiles to fit at least most of our standard and general format, and recently this is more of hax that, as Matthew's said, if i and everyone here were to not bat an eye at all of these problems and continue as if nothing bad was happening, we'd end up as a laughing stock of a "creative place". Especially to myself as i am it's owner and bureaucrat and i have had to constantly work up this place for almost two years.

All of that would just mean nothing if i let this place ran up with bad quality pages, Op characters made for no reason, characters with hax that may be made to be impossible to get through or around, and characters that may just not be interesting due to their character alone. All of that and probably more would just make newcomers and veterans just leave this place and not come back. Which is just awfully sad to say the least.

If i let that happen, i might as well just say goodbye to this place and let it be shutdown. Hopefully that doesn't happen ever at all...
 
Imouto we are not a dictatorship here. All we are doing is correcting you. We aren't gonna ban you unless you start being too obnoxious and rude with this line of thought.
 
(Sigh).

I really gotta be awake for this kind of stuff more often. Then again, that's what i get for being the one that creates these kinds of threads....

Ah yes aside from this for now, it seems that there are enough input regarding what kind of action we can try to do with this. Just haven't properly thought up what kind of rule of sorts should be made up as for all of this.
 
Cris-cri I already know the situation

I'm just (in a half-assed way) apologizing for intentionally trolling the thread

I already read and understood what the thread is about 100% and I certainly get all of what you were saying.

Lets just say that I trolled in bad taste and I do humbly apologize for doing so.

Sorry for being a bad imouto again @Fate and Dragonmasterxyz
 
Alrighty.

So pretty much everyone has agreed on what should be laid out here. We agreed on putting up some rules regarding those having certain characteristics such as "100% Hax resistance" among any other possible problems. More things to handle Tier 1's. And of the other stuff we had talked about that would be too long and likely pointless to write on.

Onto the actual rule making, i can try to start it up on putting a rough form of it on there later on when and if i can. But anyone helping writing out the additional rules & regulations later here would be very appreciative.
 
- Characters should avoid powers that depend heavily on NLF (No-Limits Fallacy), such as "100% Hax resistance".

- Characters and verses should be built around the story and theming of their setting.

They need improvement, but.
 
I also think that point you brought much earlier should be made a rule as well, Prom:

1. Whatever Immunities a character happens to have against one hax or another need a proper reasoning and justification in the context of their verses, rather than simply "they are immune to this power".

Like a character being immune to Soul Manipulation because they don't have a soul or no selling matter manipulation applied directly against them due to being made of some substance that is entirely different from matter, etc.
 
Rule drafts eh? I think I can help with the task.

This would be the rough draft I'd probably write if I was running the wiki.

1. Give solid, reasonable explanations on why your verse has reached to their current level of power. In otherwords, when lore writing laws of physics will be broken but not to bullshit extremes. Put differently, all OC verses need extensive explanations on why some of the laws of normal earth physics can be broken. The staff reserve the right to ask for proof such as in story canon proof or citations from academic articles and wikipedia cannot be used as a source.

Examples of unacceptable reasons:

"My verse is strong because of plot"

"My OC is strong cause power"

Examples of acceptable reasons:

"My OC can manipulate gravitational constants"

Here the reason is acceptable since logically put you rewrite the concept of numbers to give

your character possibly casual flight abilities.

"My OC can deploy computers to further her magic capabilities"

Here this reason is acceptable because if I were the admin, I can find possible academic citations or citations from reputatble computer science texts such as Kleinberg Tardos and Cormen, to better understand why the said OP thought up of said power in the first place.

"My OC was struggling hard against a character stronger tierwise than him and thus got to tier 2-C"

This one is straightforward, the character probably underwent an entire hell fight to defeat his opponent and thus there is story based reasoning.

2. Users should avoid powers that rely heavily on NLFs. That is what is meant by immunities vs resistances, and what does the word "absolute" mean in the scope of the verse itself. Put differently, any powers that can be potentially seen as NLF need to have a solid proper explanation.

3. Users if asked should be able to explain their verse's mechanics in terms of others.

Example ability:

Longinus Condemner:

The more corrupt my opponent is based on the wielder's defintion of corrupt based on moral affliation, the more accurate the spear is.

If an admin asked me on why this abilitiy isn't BS I would say its a reversed version of Brynhilder's Romantia except it targets accuracy rather than destructive power.

4. For feats, the user cannot randomly put

"Defeated Featherine Augustus Aurora with relative ease" without a proper explanation from the orignal verse. Hence something like, deployed a supercomputer to defeat said character is an invalid explanation because computers were not portrayed in Umineko. However, an example valid reason is My OC challenged Featherine to a chess match and was mentally tormenting her to wits end since chess games are portrayed in the verse.
 
Definitely not being as active as i was...

Anyways, on the rules thing.

Fate and Prom's are pretty straightfoward and simple enough. Himiko, and although i do appreciate the help, yours can probably be covered a bit or so by using both Prom's and Fate's together (on at least of "avoiding powers that may be seen as NLF" thing).

Another is that it's pretty much already a written rule for everyone to write up proper solid reasonings for their characters current level of power (especially for high tiers like 2, 1, and 0). Same thing for the one on feats that you put. Explaining the mechanics of powers and techniques, however, can be something we can do.
 
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