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Regarding OP Characters and OP abilities...and Tier 1's
- Thread starter CrossverseCrisis
- Start date
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First off, thanks for the understanding, Xmark.
Second, I'll have to be that person and point that:
"Even a user that's 0-dimensional can survive a near infinite-dimensional attack with this ability, as long as they're willed enough."
...This is NLF as well.
Second, I'll have to be that person and point that:
"Even a user that's 0-dimensional can survive a near infinite-dimensional attack with this ability, as long as they're willed enough."
...This is NLF as well.
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So no complete hax resistance? I see.
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if the story is sound will that be taken in to consideration?
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- Thread starter
- #46
@Darkmon: I or likely anyone else don't quite understand your comment?
@Roymaster11: That among what was earlier discussed? Yes cause it's more heading into being a NLF than those with other varying levels of hax resistance.
@Xmark: Again, thank you for all of this.
@Roymaster11: That among what was earlier discussed? Yes cause it's more heading into being a NLF than those with other varying levels of hax resistance.
@Xmark: Again, thank you for all of this.
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I mean if the story behind it is coherent and Justified will the page be allowed to stay?
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Following. This is appalling really. This is why people dislike certain verses with very strong/op characters, because some make them unbelievably OP for no reason whatsoever, other than to say "I have the most powerful character". It's embarrassing. Luckily, we have no characters with 100% hax. Granted, we take the Kanza Collection very seriously, it's basically my career (I mean we're going to be making an anime and everything). So I find it shameful that people are just way too interested in making characters strong for the sake of being strong. If a rule was implemented (theoretically speaking) it would also punish those who have worked very hard on their verses, including the powers and statistics. I started Kanza 10 years ago, long before VSBW was founded and even longer before dimensional tiering was used. The statistcs of our characters are based off feats from stories I wrote years and years ago.
Also I really hope Amy Liu isn't the cause of all this. Sera put her at "Unknown" specifically to avoid this from happening, yet it's happening anyway... The idea was not to make the most hax character, rather it is part of the plot itself, a plot that I, again, take very seriously, more seriously than I take any of my work on the main VSB wiki, because this is a passion I've worked on my whole life. Anyway, I'm glad we are implementing this now, this reminds me of the MUGEN arms race of creating broken characters because of Auron's God Orochi. When Sera told me what Matt said about not having two Tier 0s despite being the same entity, I immediately thought of Amy Liu and why Sera put her at Unknown. FC/OC has the potential to be as big as the original VSBW. But we definitely do not need Suggs or SorA mentality here. Even Demonbane's power is justified of you really look at it.
Anyway, that's all I have to say regarding this for now. I deeply respect Prom's decision of downgrading her characters a bit, it's something we all, including myself, should aspire to.
Also I really hope Amy Liu isn't the cause of all this. Sera put her at "Unknown" specifically to avoid this from happening, yet it's happening anyway... The idea was not to make the most hax character, rather it is part of the plot itself, a plot that I, again, take very seriously, more seriously than I take any of my work on the main VSB wiki, because this is a passion I've worked on my whole life. Anyway, I'm glad we are implementing this now, this reminds me of the MUGEN arms race of creating broken characters because of Auron's God Orochi. When Sera told me what Matt said about not having two Tier 0s despite being the same entity, I immediately thought of Amy Liu and why Sera put her at Unknown. FC/OC has the potential to be as big as the original VSBW. But we definitely do not need Suggs or SorA mentality here. Even Demonbane's power is justified of you really look at it.
Anyway, that's all I have to say regarding this for now. I deeply respect Prom's decision of downgrading her characters a bit, it's something we all, including myself, should aspire to.
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- Thread starter
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@Darkmon: You're not exactly being specific, are you? Is it about the Tier 1's cause they can stay as long as the user/creator of said tier 1 gives explanations or justifications for their given stats. Basically what me and others like Dragon and Fate and stuff have said above from earlier.
@Venom: Seems to be a recurring thing even then despite me and others efforts to down that kind of thing significantly. And yes, it's rather shameful of that as well. Especially for myself.
No? You should understand that even if it were, as a community of here, problems like this can apply to everyone. And when i mean everyone, that includes even myself. Amy Liu COULD or could not be a possible example of any or all of this, but she's not the only one. Like on the "100% Hax resistance" issue for example, i didn't just named Xmark's characters. I also named Prom's (despite knowing her's are not THAT big of an issue if none at all in fact) as well as one of my own and Everlastings. Would appreciate kindly if you try to not think that. As when things like this can/could happen, it applies to everyone (including, again, myself). Just saying.
Anyways, this is a problem that can spread to others if not already with a few. Which i'm glad Matthew's here earlier had came to me the other day about this, as i would like for this place to be a place where people can make creative things rather than for lowly stuff like making them OP for the sake of it and whatnot of what was said here.
@Venom: Seems to be a recurring thing even then despite me and others efforts to down that kind of thing significantly. And yes, it's rather shameful of that as well. Especially for myself.
No? You should understand that even if it were, as a community of here, problems like this can apply to everyone. And when i mean everyone, that includes even myself. Amy Liu COULD or could not be a possible example of any or all of this, but she's not the only one. Like on the "100% Hax resistance" issue for example, i didn't just named Xmark's characters. I also named Prom's (despite knowing her's are not THAT big of an issue if none at all in fact) as well as one of my own and Everlastings. Would appreciate kindly if you try to not think that. As when things like this can/could happen, it applies to everyone (including, again, myself). Just saying.
Anyways, this is a problem that can spread to others if not already with a few. Which i'm glad Matthew's here earlier had came to me the other day about this, as i would like for this place to be a place where people can make creative things rather than for lowly stuff like making them OP for the sake of it and whatnot of what was said here.
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Agreed.
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sorry I meant for the broken/OP charaters I have one that is really OP but I want to make him a profile becuase he is a mane charater and one of my favorites.
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- Thread starter
- #52
@Darkmon: Oh. Well as it was talked about, you would need to give them legitimate weaknesses or whatnot as it was said much earlier on. Weather or not you have him used in Vs threads or whatnot doesn't matter so long as you give them legitimate weaknesses....and/or whatnot.
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ok
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@Venom I really agree with you. However I disagree with the OP characters thing. People tend to love OP verses nowadays. For me as long as the verse itself is fun it is enjoyable. However everything else you said is on the money.
Ain't gonna lie. When I first started creating a series(Xros Revolution . Also before I got to the wiki) I wanted to create the strongest verse possible. So I understand new people on these forums. However, as I've tonned down. Yuracion Absolon is supposed to be that verse that I can make as OP as I want......within reason. I formed a story around dimensions that could be engaging and fun. An action series full of fun quirlky and accidentally downright destructive( Wait til you hear the funny crap they do) characters. The verse is filled with 1-A's yeah. But they are 1-A with reason. They aren't 1-A to be 1-A. This is my problem with many pages now. They are 1-A to be 1-A. My characters and your characters are 1-A and "overpowered" due to plot. No BS power-ups either. Everyone earns their power. They work for it. They have stories that give them a reason to be that powerful. Heck I plan a CANON crossover with all of mine and Luxardel's verses. And the common problem we have is that "Hey, we have two verse total full of 1-A's. We can't just make every Xros Revolution character 1-A...."
Ii actually to be honest never really expressed my problem with "OP to be OP" pages but now I will let everything out. Sorry in advance for this probably irrelevant rant.
1) Unimaginative: Where's the imagination? Any 12 year old can make an OP character. It isn't about how OP they are. It's about what went into the creation of that character. What's the story behind the creation. The character's personality is all we need. Heck, once I'm done with upgrades I will add more to these guys in terms of character. I wanted to say generic and unoriginal, but there is nothing original under the sun. But at least show that you put effort into their creation. I've started over twice when it comes to their stats. Cross can....possibly....confirm this.
2) Reasoning: Good lord and here is the main thing reasoning. And before someone says "Hey Dragon your characters all have the same explainations for their tiers. Only thing you change is gender, blahblahblah..." Well jokes on you I actually made a blog and will actually start posting my story here. I made the blog to explain my verse's mechanics so it save me time when doing upgrades based on story progress. Heck that isn't finished all the way. There is still some changes and additions to be added. Anyway enough about me...now I'm just rambling on. People need to learn that there is more to a series than power. If you have OP characters. So be it. But gives us some reason to why when it pertains to an overall plot. "OP" verses like Saint Seiya, Pokemon, Digimon, SMT, Demonbane, Masadaverse, Cthulu Mythos, Warhammer, Tenchi Muyo, etc all have reasons to why their characters are that powerful. We just want you to give us a damn reason. If you are not a story writer then I question why you have 1-A's in the first place. Of course I realize many do this for fun. But many people who do this for fun with no real story don't have a verse full of like 99 1-A's. Hey just give us some little tidbit of your plot and we'd be happy.
We want you to have fun here. But at the same exact time we don't want this to be as MANY above stated to be Suggsverse the Vsbattles wiki.
Again Sorry for the rant......And if it is more of me rambling on irrelevant crap.
Ain't gonna lie. When I first started creating a series(Xros Revolution . Also before I got to the wiki) I wanted to create the strongest verse possible. So I understand new people on these forums. However, as I've tonned down. Yuracion Absolon is supposed to be that verse that I can make as OP as I want......within reason. I formed a story around dimensions that could be engaging and fun. An action series full of fun quirlky and accidentally downright destructive( Wait til you hear the funny crap they do) characters. The verse is filled with 1-A's yeah. But they are 1-A with reason. They aren't 1-A to be 1-A. This is my problem with many pages now. They are 1-A to be 1-A. My characters and your characters are 1-A and "overpowered" due to plot. No BS power-ups either. Everyone earns their power. They work for it. They have stories that give them a reason to be that powerful. Heck I plan a CANON crossover with all of mine and Luxardel's verses. And the common problem we have is that "Hey, we have two verse total full of 1-A's. We can't just make every Xros Revolution character 1-A...."
Ii actually to be honest never really expressed my problem with "OP to be OP" pages but now I will let everything out. Sorry in advance for this probably irrelevant rant.
1) Unimaginative: Where's the imagination? Any 12 year old can make an OP character. It isn't about how OP they are. It's about what went into the creation of that character. What's the story behind the creation. The character's personality is all we need. Heck, once I'm done with upgrades I will add more to these guys in terms of character. I wanted to say generic and unoriginal, but there is nothing original under the sun. But at least show that you put effort into their creation. I've started over twice when it comes to their stats. Cross can....possibly....confirm this.
2) Reasoning: Good lord and here is the main thing reasoning. And before someone says "Hey Dragon your characters all have the same explainations for their tiers. Only thing you change is gender, blahblahblah..." Well jokes on you I actually made a blog and will actually start posting my story here. I made the blog to explain my verse's mechanics so it save me time when doing upgrades based on story progress. Heck that isn't finished all the way. There is still some changes and additions to be added. Anyway enough about me...now I'm just rambling on. People need to learn that there is more to a series than power. If you have OP characters. So be it. But gives us some reason to why when it pertains to an overall plot. "OP" verses like Saint Seiya, Pokemon, Digimon, SMT, Demonbane, Masadaverse, Cthulu Mythos, Warhammer, Tenchi Muyo, etc all have reasons to why their characters are that powerful. We just want you to give us a damn reason. If you are not a story writer then I question why you have 1-A's in the first place. Of course I realize many do this for fun. But many people who do this for fun with no real story don't have a verse full of like 99 1-A's. Hey just give us some little tidbit of your plot and we'd be happy.
We want you to have fun here. But at the same exact time we don't want this to be as MANY above stated to be Suggsverse the Vsbattles wiki.
Again Sorry for the rant......And if it is more of me rambling on irrelevant crap.
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- Thread starter
- #55
@Dragon: Yeah that's about right with people doing that. Unlike some of y'all like yourself and Venom who has 1-A's with reasons, others do it for fun yet also do it just for the (likely) sake of making them as powerful as they can make them to be.
As for the points.
1) Personality is also good too in fact. This one is a lot better since it at least gives you a sense of how they are despite their high existence and/or whatnot. Other than that, i can look at this way too.
2) This one.......yeah. This one is especially true with people. Making powerful characters to all the way up to at least 1-A may seem fun, but it's really not. Especially when one makes it without giving any solid reasoning as to why they have such tiers and stats in the first place. Canon works as you said actual have evidence and/or reasons as to why they are that OP (from Saint Seiya and Digimon to Masadaverse and Demonbane and so on, yeah). And this is especially something i myself had to constantly deal with for almost TWO YEARS now: People not giving me, and others here, a simple yet solid reasoning as to why they have OP characters super high like tier 1. Even if it's not for a story by any chance, any reasoning of sorts is better than no reasoning. Don't have any of them, one is more than very likely to have it get taken off the wikia later on...
Simply put, i have to agree with this as well.
And is as what Dragon have said here (with a tadbit of what Matt said to me the other day): People can make OP characters if they want, that's fine. And we want this place to be really fun. But we are definitely not a place where one can just make OP characters to the point of looking line a Suggsverse character or similar (power-wise). Mmm mmm, nuh-uh and no way. That is not creative and rather not fun for anyone that happens to view and read them here.
As for the points.
1) Personality is also good too in fact. This one is a lot better since it at least gives you a sense of how they are despite their high existence and/or whatnot. Other than that, i can look at this way too.
2) This one.......yeah. This one is especially true with people. Making powerful characters to all the way up to at least 1-A may seem fun, but it's really not. Especially when one makes it without giving any solid reasoning as to why they have such tiers and stats in the first place. Canon works as you said actual have evidence and/or reasons as to why they are that OP (from Saint Seiya and Digimon to Masadaverse and Demonbane and so on, yeah). And this is especially something i myself had to constantly deal with for almost TWO YEARS now: People not giving me, and others here, a simple yet solid reasoning as to why they have OP characters super high like tier 1. Even if it's not for a story by any chance, any reasoning of sorts is better than no reasoning. Don't have any of them, one is more than very likely to have it get taken off the wikia later on...
Simply put, i have to agree with this as well.
And is as what Dragon have said here (with a tadbit of what Matt said to me the other day): People can make OP characters if they want, that's fine. And we want this place to be really fun. But we are definitely not a place where one can just make OP characters to the point of looking line a Suggsverse character or similar (power-wise). Mmm mmm, nuh-uh and no way. That is not creative and rather not fun for anyone that happens to view and read them here.
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Like I mentioned above... Any kind of verse can be fun, as long as it's not just a bunch of infinite tiers slapped everywhere for the sake of it and characters that are no different from the section of this wiki called "Powers and Abilities".
They get the most generic of histories/personality ever (If they even get ANY history and personality) while overloaded with a crapton of powers that you even have to question how anyone in their home verse even beats them... Aside from PIS and wel, being made with an even higher crapton of powers and more infinities above just for the sake of it.
They get the most generic of histories/personality ever (If they even get ANY history and personality) while overloaded with a crapton of powers that you even have to question how anyone in their home verse even beats them... Aside from PIS and wel, being made with an even higher crapton of powers and more infinities above just for the sake of it.
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With that being said, I have two characters that might be controversial myself, so I'll point this out just in case:
1. One of them being Erika who is the main antagonist of my more powerful verse and thanks to being near the end of the plot has become... Practically a monster in regards to power when compared to my other characters. Though she stands at Universal Power (Low 2-C) and is justified by having an artifact that is a keypoint in the whole series.
2. And then the other is Nanashi, who has Non-Existence, Conceptual and Quantum powers that allow him to interact and mess with people up to the 3-D while being 0-D. This is justified in-verse by the fact that Abysstracts have their foundation on "the concept of Nothingness that was distorted and combined with 3-D materials as a result of the Ambivalent Energy Phenomenon". As such, they are capable of making (and acting) as "anomalies given form - walking dimensional breaches up to the third layer, which is as far as their influence was confirmed to go" meaning that, as long as they keep consuming worlds (which Nanashi did for an unspecified ammount of time) they can actually mess up with beings on our level of existence. Naturally, anything above 3-D would wreck them anyways.
...But if any of that sounds like NLF from my part, feel free to tell me, too. I'll either try to explain it further or be ready to change something if necessary.
1. One of them being Erika who is the main antagonist of my more powerful verse and thanks to being near the end of the plot has become... Practically a monster in regards to power when compared to my other characters. Though she stands at Universal Power (Low 2-C) and is justified by having an artifact that is a keypoint in the whole series.
2. And then the other is Nanashi, who has Non-Existence, Conceptual and Quantum powers that allow him to interact and mess with people up to the 3-D while being 0-D. This is justified in-verse by the fact that Abysstracts have their foundation on "the concept of Nothingness that was distorted and combined with 3-D materials as a result of the Ambivalent Energy Phenomenon". As such, they are capable of making (and acting) as "anomalies given form - walking dimensional breaches up to the third layer, which is as far as their influence was confirmed to go" meaning that, as long as they keep consuming worlds (which Nanashi did for an unspecified ammount of time) they can actually mess up with beings on our level of existence. Naturally, anything above 3-D would wreck them anyways.
...But if any of that sounds like NLF from my part, feel free to tell me, too. I'll either try to explain it further or be ready to change something if necessary.
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well after reading that I think I will be fine.
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And thus another point. How can one beat such a foe if they have such powerful hax. People need to evaluate that as well.
Kira for example. Can create a weapon for any situation. Weakness. Can still be broken by physical force...Which is common her verse. Heck even elements the exact same as that weapon could break it if powerful enough.
But when you have a character who is like 3-A with an un-godly amount of hax with no clear weakness or something you can take advantage of....
Kira for example. Can create a weapon for any situation. Weakness. Can still be broken by physical force...Which is common her verse. Heck even elements the exact same as that weapon could break it if powerful enough.
But when you have a character who is like 3-A with an un-godly amount of hax with no clear weakness or something you can take advantage of....
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That is a case by case scenario as well. Characters like Reinhard or the GeOM, Arceus or the SS Gods are extremely powerful and haxxed, with weaknesses nowhere to be seen.
Ocasionally, it is expected from a verse to have one or another character far outclassing the others for the sake of storytelling, so it really depends on the justification for these inside the plot - e.g. You cannot have a villain be comparable to the heroes everytime. Or sometimes you need a character that is far above to give that impression of superior power.
Look at the father in FMA Brotherhood, for instance. By the end of the series he was so powerful that he far outclassed the entire cast and was only defeated by the combined efforts of many other characters as well as preparation time from many.
When you have a few characters in a verse that happen to be like that, it's one thing. When MOST or EVERY character is like that, on the other hand, then it looks suspicious.
Ocasionally, it is expected from a verse to have one or another character far outclassing the others for the sake of storytelling, so it really depends on the justification for these inside the plot - e.g. You cannot have a villain be comparable to the heroes everytime. Or sometimes you need a character that is far above to give that impression of superior power.
Look at the father in FMA Brotherhood, for instance. By the end of the series he was so powerful that he far outclassed the entire cast and was only defeated by the combined efforts of many other characters as well as preparation time from many.
When you have a few characters in a verse that happen to be like that, it's one thing. When MOST or EVERY character is like that, on the other hand, then it looks suspicious.
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But they are beatable with the right tools. They have weakpoints be it their personality flaws or other things. They have an undefined weakness. But sometimes, people make characters have like no weakpoints. The only way to beat them is by overpowering them unless they negate that too.
I guess my point is that like what you said. It's okay to have a few. But a verse full of like 70 characters and all of them are so haxed that you can't even touch them is a problem.
I guess my point is that like what you said. It's okay to have a few. But a verse full of like 70 characters and all of them are so haxed that you can't even touch them is a problem.
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Fate, your characters are fine, I think.
I agree with the points that everyone has brought up, here.
I agree with the points that everyone has brought up, here.
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@Dragon Outside of plot reasons, character flaws are borderline Irrelevant depending on the ammount of power or hax a character has. Just a minor inconvenience to them, at most (Unless it's extremely pronounced, like say, Gilgamesh's ego). But again, case by case.
Hence why I said it depends on their position within the plot of their verse and how that is justified. It's not unheard of many characters that are only defeated because of a lot of plot related events - such as prep time from the opponents, being outnumbered, the enemies having prior knowledge, some sort of plot thing in verse that may work against them, being weakened after fighting others or some power up from the heroes... And many others.
And yes, a few makes sense. While on topic, take a look at Bernkastel's or Arceus' profile. It has a bajillion powers and abilities and their weaknesses are borderline Irrelevant when you think about all they have on arsenal.
But NOT EVERYONE is Bernkastel or Arceus. They are a class of their own - each of them far outclasses a ton of characters from their verses by virtue of being explained in such a position by the narrative. When a ton of characters sound indestructible in the verse with no flaw whatsoever, it's time to stop and bring the nerf hammer.
Hence why I said it depends on their position within the plot of their verse and how that is justified. It's not unheard of many characters that are only defeated because of a lot of plot related events - such as prep time from the opponents, being outnumbered, the enemies having prior knowledge, some sort of plot thing in verse that may work against them, being weakened after fighting others or some power up from the heroes... And many others.
And yes, a few makes sense. While on topic, take a look at Bernkastel's or Arceus' profile. It has a bajillion powers and abilities and their weaknesses are borderline Irrelevant when you think about all they have on arsenal.
But NOT EVERYONE is Bernkastel or Arceus. They are a class of their own - each of them far outclasses a ton of characters from their verses by virtue of being explained in such a position by the narrative. When a ton of characters sound indestructible in the verse with no flaw whatsoever, it's time to stop and bring the nerf hammer.
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Oh... Ok. Thanks, Prom. I was worried that I'd have to delete Nanashi as that is pretty much the whole mechanic of Abysstracts in general and if it was NLF then I would have to. XDPromestein said:
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I would just like to say that Lower-Dimensional characters with Higher-Dimensional powers is not impossible nor stupid.
If you ever watch the anime, Space Dandy, in which you'll see a Four Dimensional race that is weaker than humanity, and you'll also see a Universal+ Two-Dimensional Being.
If you ever watch the anime, Space Dandy, in which you'll see a Four Dimensional race that is weaker than humanity, and you'll also see a Universal+ Two-Dimensional Being.
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@Fate Yeah that kind of personality weakness is what I meant. For example Zamasu. Dude would be too busy monolouging to fight.
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Yeah i agree with cross (coming from the guy who did this…never posting that kind of character cause too much work lol i blame my organizing skills for this…) Personality weakness could help but not as much considering resistance is making the hax not as effective as before like it's effectiveness could be reduced by half or something having 100% resistance then they can only be beaten physically which ain't fair. Fate has a good point of case to case basis
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Well, just because a character seems indestructible, doesn't mean they are. Regardless of the hax they may hold. So this arms race is childish from the start. Technically, everyone is 1-A in Umineko, that same technicality applies to Kanza, yet we don't rank all of our characters 1-A (outright) and there is a reason for that. It's because the laws really only apply to our verse. Magic is primary in Kanza, Mana (magic) comes from the Anomaly itself (Amy Liu) however in another verse, magic may be considered weak.
I/O has a cast full of 1-As who can control everything because infornation is primary in I/O yet those 1-As would be fodder to the 1-As of Demonbane because they are the source of information and thus should be able to completely control the I/O informational beings, mind you, these informational beings are omniscient and still lose to Another Blood.
There is nothing more boring than an unbeatable protagonist. Let's not make the next Seeker or SorA's blog. Nobody wants to see Suggsverse or Penultimate Pataverse here. This site is for creativity and building your own verse, not nonsensical imagination.
Finally, I do believe we should limit the number of High 1-As (if we haven't already) per verse. I think 3 should be fine, like Cthulhu Mythos and potentially I/O. Not to attack anyone, but I don't see the point in a High 1-A protagonist. One does not simply become High 1-A. I like how Hop explained Sop. That's a prime example of how you could become High 1-A. Otherwise, regular 1-A is fine. As Matt said, it's the widest tier.
Just to give my thoughts on this.
I/O has a cast full of 1-As who can control everything because infornation is primary in I/O yet those 1-As would be fodder to the 1-As of Demonbane because they are the source of information and thus should be able to completely control the I/O informational beings, mind you, these informational beings are omniscient and still lose to Another Blood.
There is nothing more boring than an unbeatable protagonist. Let's not make the next Seeker or SorA's blog. Nobody wants to see Suggsverse or Penultimate Pataverse here. This site is for creativity and building your own verse, not nonsensical imagination.
Finally, I do believe we should limit the number of High 1-As (if we haven't already) per verse. I think 3 should be fine, like Cthulhu Mythos and potentially I/O. Not to attack anyone, but I don't see the point in a High 1-A protagonist. One does not simply become High 1-A. I like how Hop explained Sop. That's a prime example of how you could become High 1-A. Otherwise, regular 1-A is fine. As Matt said, it's the widest tier.
Just to give my thoughts on this.
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I think we limited it to 3 High 1-A's at most.
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If so, The Everlasting's Verse is breaking the rule. And his verse is also where the Infinite ^ Infinite 1-As are rendered fodders.
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I don't think Ever was around when we made the rule since it is fairly recent. I'll ask him to comment here.
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@Sera To quote Venom on that: The problem arises when the person or persons don't seem to have any idea of what they're doing/or inside the plot and just want to have these characters be that strong "because why not/because my verse has to be that strong".
Sure, Umineko, I/O and Masadaverse have a good number of named, important characters that all reach 1-A heights.
But, there's a lot more to said characters than just "Their power is maximum!" ...When it's just that, it stops being like these series and becomes more like Suggs, indeed.
On a sidenote... ovo
Point: I agree with Venom on this. You can make a verse strong like that... As long as you get the mechanics and don't go overboard just for the sake of it. Plot is still what matters the most.
Sure, Umineko, I/O and Masadaverse have a good number of named, important characters that all reach 1-A heights.
But, there's a lot more to said characters than just "Their power is maximum!" ...When it's just that, it stops being like these series and becomes more like Suggs, indeed.
On a sidenote... ovo
Point: I agree with Venom on this. You can make a verse strong like that... As long as you get the mechanics and don't go overboard just for the sake of it. Plot is still what matters the most.
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By the way, while we're at it, we've been mentioning these verses as an example but I'd also like to point out that you don't necessarily NEED a broken af extremely high tier verse to make a good story or demonstrate power.
Sure it's fun, but at times it's good to re-evaluate things and question yourself as a writer/author: Do I REALLY need these guys to be on this level?
There are great series at huge power levels, but there are awesome ones just as well that are weak overall.
FMA:Brotherhood, Berserk, even famous ones like One Piece and (compared to the higher dimensions we're seeing a lot) Dragon Ball as well may look weak (too lacking in hax), but they are verses loved by many and show awesome battles and plot.
It's a thing to consider. Focusing on power may be nice at times, but as long as the story is good, anything goes. Like Matt said above, I respect Promestein myself because her verse looks by far one of the most balanced ones I've ever seen while also giving that impression of great power when I look at her characters AND having personality as well.
Sure it's fun, but at times it's good to re-evaluate things and question yourself as a writer/author: Do I REALLY need these guys to be on this level?
There are great series at huge power levels, but there are awesome ones just as well that are weak overall.
FMA:Brotherhood, Berserk, even famous ones like One Piece and (compared to the higher dimensions we're seeing a lot) Dragon Ball as well may look weak (too lacking in hax), but they are verses loved by many and show awesome battles and plot.
It's a thing to consider. Focusing on power may be nice at times, but as long as the story is good, anything goes. Like Matt said above, I respect Promestein myself because her verse looks by far one of the most balanced ones I've ever seen while also giving that impression of great power when I look at her characters AND having personality as well.
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I didn't say you couldn't. Our verse is unspeakably hax. I'm saying that those who make these kinds of pages have no idea what it means to be 1-A other than being "beyond dimensions" (primary in your verse) and how it is completely relative to the setting. I've written several stories for the Kanza Collection. I know how to write opness.
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^ I agreed with Venom on most of that long ago, tho. I was not referring to Kanza nor to any verse around here in particular, just to the problem at hand as a whole. My apologies if it wasn't clear on the above replies.
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Furthermore, there are no absolutes once you get to "beyond dimensions". No rules nor anything we're used to should normally apply or be understood as "truth", "correct" or an accurate depiction of a "beyond dimensional" situation. In fact, anything beyond the 4th dimension is already anyone's guess (And that's why High 2-A is usually the last tier where matches can legit happen across verses).
Humans hardly know all that there is to know about even the "small" planet we live in.
Each author can only make guesses or adapt to suit their tastes in what "beyond dimensional" would be like, as it's so many infinities beyond us and even beyond those infinities, that any sort of depiction will never be enough to come close to describing it. That's why we can't even have matches in these high tiers. Far too beyond us to judge.
Humans hardly know all that there is to know about even the "small" planet we live in.
Each author can only make guesses or adapt to suit their tastes in what "beyond dimensional" would be like, as it's so many infinities beyond us and even beyond those infinities, that any sort of depiction will never be enough to come close to describing it. That's why we can't even have matches in these high tiers. Far too beyond us to judge.
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That doesn't matter. As I said, what makes someone from I/O 1-A and so powerful is that they control the primary essence of that verse (information in I/O). If there were an endless race of 1-A beings in I/O who aren't informational beings, they would be irrelevant compared to the imaginary children because they do not have complete control over information. This is what I mean by 1-A and the difference between the power of 1-A beings, regardless of the number of 1-As in a verse being relative to series' setting and thus should be evaluated on a case by case basis. There should be no verse with endless hierarchies of 1-A beings and the only difference is that they are infinity^infinity as Matt mentioned.
1. Infinity is a quantitative value. Even if it's unlimited, it's still quantity.
2. As Ven has said time and time again, once you hit 1-A you need a qualititative superiority and not a quantitative (any multiplication up to infinity) one.
At High 1-A and Tier 0, even a qualitative superiority becomes irrelevant due to the nature of "boundlessness".
1. Infinity is a quantitative value. Even if it's unlimited, it's still quantity.
2. As Ven has said time and time again, once you hit 1-A you need a qualititative superiority and not a quantitative (any multiplication up to infinity) one.
At High 1-A and Tier 0, even a qualitative superiority becomes irrelevant due to the nature of "boundlessness".
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Using "Infinity" to quantify the power of beings beyond infinity is stupid.
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My points above we're, once again, actually agreeing with yours, so I'm not exactly sure but I'll clarify a few things anyways.
0. We can imagine in our verse, sure, but what if another author fulfills the requirements for 1-A as well, while imagining it in a different way from us? Can we say that OUR rules are the real deal in a 1-A existential condition? Not really. Hence why I agreed with your point when you said before that it is relative. Even before that, Isaid that the mechanics of 1-A vary a lot from one verse to another, to further back that up. I also brought the case by case basis a number of times, sooo, not sure. Are we even disagreeing on this at all or is this some sort of misunderstanding from one side or another? ^_^' Because to me it doesn't look like we're disagreeing on anything.
1. Indeed it is. Hence why I said "as it's so many infinities beyond us and even beyond (<< keywords) those infinities, that any sort of depiction will never be enough to come close to describing it. " , when referring to 1-A levels. Indeed it is.
2. Once again, I agreed with Venom on this a good time ago. Qualitatively superiority is the deal - a rather interesting example of this would be Hajun who, while having a Taikyoku value of Infinity, actually is justified by the fact that this value indeed gives him a qualitatively superior power to those bellow him rather than just "higher power level". Pretty nice stuff.
And on the last point, yup.
0. We can imagine in our verse, sure, but what if another author fulfills the requirements for 1-A as well, while imagining it in a different way from us? Can we say that OUR rules are the real deal in a 1-A existential condition? Not really. Hence why I agreed with your point when you said before that it is relative. Even before that, Isaid that the mechanics of 1-A vary a lot from one verse to another, to further back that up. I also brought the case by case basis a number of times, sooo, not sure. Are we even disagreeing on this at all or is this some sort of misunderstanding from one side or another? ^_^' Because to me it doesn't look like we're disagreeing on anything.
1. Indeed it is. Hence why I said "as it's so many infinities beyond us and even beyond (<< keywords) those infinities, that any sort of depiction will never be enough to come close to describing it. " , when referring to 1-A levels. Indeed it is.
2. Once again, I agreed with Venom on this a good time ago. Qualitatively superiority is the deal - a rather interesting example of this would be Hajun who, while having a Taikyoku value of Infinity, actually is justified by the fact that this value indeed gives him a qualitatively superior power to those bellow him rather than just "higher power level". Pretty nice stuff.
And on the last point, yup.
