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Regarding OP Characters and OP abilities...and Tier 1's

CrossverseCrisis

VS Battles
FC/OC VS Battles
Retired
11,582
548
May not be the right title to put but good enough.

I'm here to make this thread regarding a trend we've have had going here on FC/OC for quite a while. It may not be something done generally, but it has and is still going.

So i was contacted in private on Skype by Matthew, one of our users here and, more importantly, an admin of VSBW, about a matter of how some or so of our characters are being made to be the most broken or something in a rather overpowered matter.

One particular matter he had pointed out to me that is rather starting to maybe be prominent here is characters having "100% Hax Resistance". I've seen this done before on those of the Gyrohem verse of Xmark's characters. AFAIK, those characters are all listed of having complete resistance to any and all hax....which i, Dragon, Matthew, Promestein (all three that i have talked to about this the other day) as well one other user we have here (that i won't name for now) deem this as rather bad and more of NLF, as this implies of the character being able to resist hax of any kind just like being immune to them regardless of Tier difference and scale of hax that any and all others they face would not be able to harm in any way.

I was told that this shouldn't be a thing unless one is 1-A or above or something of the sorts. One can have OC's get heavy resistance to any haxes, just not 100%/full on hax resistance to....well everything. A good example would likely be that of Promestein's Starcross characters. Her OC's have barriers that allow to have resistance to a number of haxes, but are not absolute and, iirc, can break and be nulled if one is of a higher tier than her.....i think. Just go read back on her verse page about this for more info. Other characters like Tenebris and my Xero OC even (albeit still in progress), while they themselves are broken especially have some heavy hax resistance, they are apparently made like that for OC's themselves and even they don't have absolute hax resistance (especially as for mines as i made him that way for story purposes/reasons. DK enough on Tene again tho).

Anyways, the point i am trying to make here is that we need to make a rule or sorts about these kinds of things. Otherwise, this place will end up with characters having such factors as well as things like maybe characters going Irrelevant in speed or something (though i have yet to get see at least one that has this but it can happen somehow).

I would prefer if Matt or someone further elaborates this and other issues we have here like above with the hax resistance thing, but aside that we may need to very well make rules and regulations about making these kinds of characters, or perhaps do something else besides that like making them still beatable in some way like giving them legitimate weaknesses or perhaps a sort of window of opportunity that an opponent can use to somehow have a potential victory over them.

There is also the matter of the number of Tier 1's, particularly that of 1-A, but Matt and the others that know of this will come and explain fully of these characters...

Didn't really quite make a solid thread reasoning, but i will let this be clarified to Matthew, Dragon, Promestein, and whoever else happens to know this kind of issue we have here.
 
Followed.

And what I have to say for now is: "Where do I begin...?"

I'll have a lot to say about this subject, for sure. Especially on the NLF department, but I'll do so tomorrow, because then I'll have more time - and won't be as sleepy as I am atm - to better elaborate my view regarding this whole matter and situation.
 
This is a very important thread and a very important subject.

100% Hax Resistance is an issue, unless it's for certain types of hax for certain reasons (like being immune to soul manipulation due to being soulless or something comparable). And since it was brought up, the absolute barriers were partly inspired by Dark Schneider's Dispel Bound; they can be worn down by comparable opponents over the course of a battle, and stripped away / punched through by stronger opponents.

The thing about this is that it's not easy to judge on a general scale, it has to be judged on a case-by-case basis when it comes to rulings. Just... full-on immunity shouldn't be allowed outside of certain cases (like soullessness making you immune to soul manipulation), as it is a huge room for NLF.
 
Following!

I have a lot to say on the subject, and will do my best to explain my thoughts:

The figurative "Arms-Race" of Overpowered characters that many users here do, creating ever broken abilities, hax resistances, mimicking each other's abilitieis and inserting OCs of ever higher Tiers to their verses is a troubling thing, and it needs to be fought in some way. Though I do not know exactly how.

We cannot allow this Wikia to become Suggsverse-lite. From what I understand, it was once riddled with ridiculous Tier 0s and characters with nonsensical ratings like "Faster than Irrelevant" speeds. It has come a long way since, but I believe OPness for OPness sake should be discouraged.

Of course, we cannot remove someone's right to create an OP Verse, and there are no good ways to handle it. I've thought of limiting the number of 1-As per Verse, but that would be problematic. Though I am seeing an increasing number of people adding Infinite Hierarchies of 1-As, only to render those characters that are Infinity ^ Infinity beyond baseline Outerverse Level fodders in comparison to their protagonists. High 1-As who fight each other are also common-ish, it seems.

These things are, if you'd allow me to give my thoughts, incredibly cringey, and very obviously done only for the sake of rendering one's OCs the most powerful possible. I don't want to remove anyone's right to make 1-As or broken characters, but there should be a case-by-case way of filtring this. A way of making writers "downplay" their own characters.

I admire FCOC, its Staff, and its idea. And I want to become a larger part of it. However, we cannot let it become worthy of mockery like this is.

Going back to Promenstein's Starcross for an example. It used to have characters ranked at Low 2-C to 2-A, but currently said characters have all been downgraded, and the Verse now peaks at 3-C. I talked about this with Prom once at chat, and she told me that Multiversal+ characters didn't serve her story, and made the rest of the cast seem irrelevant, and so for the sake of the writing their power level was reduced.

I cannot express how much I aplaud this decision... A decision that, really, should be completely obvious. This is what I want for FCOC as a whole. People putting their stories and writings over said writing's Tiering.
 
Matt words it very well. I am mixed on the possibility of limiting the number of 1-A's. We may just have to be much stricter when it comes to 1-A pages and how they fit within verses. And yes, there are a lot of High 2-A pages. I agree with Matt, in that people are clearly making their OC's strong just for the sake of strength.
 
I will say what I said to Cross. If one is planning on making a verse full of tier 1-A main protagonists and antagonists. I believe you should probably make a blog detailing a reason why they are this level. Not gonna lie I am guilty of having a verse full of 1-A MAIN characters. But when we start getting fodder 1-A's then things are getting crazy.

I use my Yuracion Absolon verse as an example. Many notice many characters share similar tiers and reasonings. But of course I made a blog explaining how scaling and tiering works with these characters. Heck, soon I'm even gonna update it with more reasoning. Plus this also saves me time when editing pages. Although I probably should add more reasoning.

I feel as though you should have a story reason behind a ton of 1-A's other than "muh my verse so OP.." Yuracion Absolon deals with dimensions as a major plot point. Heck the seals I make reflect that. But some people I've seen make a ton of 1-A's without really any good plot reason.

Are the villains they fight that powerful? Do you understand dimensions enough to make a tier 1-A page?

Many times I have questioned should my characters be 1-A. Each time I've decided to keep the planned tiering (as I plan tiers ahead of time and update per arc I make.) as it fits within my story.

However, one should question whether a certain tier fits in their series. Anyway that's my opinion on that.

Now for "100% Hax immunity" just no. Sorry but even for a 1-A that'd be NLFish since High 1-A's exist. High resistance is fine. But flat out immunity is not that good. Unless it is like immune to a few certain haxes. Not EVERY hax. Even then if someone is a whole dimensional tier above them they should be affected by that hax.

That is what I think should be done here.
 
Going on what Matthew, Prom, and Dragon said here, things like characters having full-on hax resistance is pretty BS and heads onto NLF-territory. As Dragon said even if that were the case, unless specified, those having such resistances should still be effected by characters who are a whole dimensional tier above them. There can be characters here who can have immunity to few or some haxes even, but not ALL of them. Which is why those like Prom's OC's aren't absolute, neither is mines or those like Dragon's or Everlasting's Tenebris and so on.

The things of what Matthew said here is true as well. For a while, it seems to be a recurring trend on FC/OC to make OP characters with things such as granting them broken abilities that others may or may not be able to easily break through, mimicking each others abilities or something....somehow, putting characters of higher tiers past 2-A if they don't know how the story would fit like that. And Matt is right in that at some point on here, almost 2 straight years back when i first became admin here, we had characters who perhaps had ridiculous ranks like being "faster than Irrelevant" and there were quite a lot of Tier 0's and 1's here at some point as well. Which i along with those such as Dragon and Prom are constantly helping out on this not happening again.

However, Matthew is right in that we should not restrict or take away a users right of making an OP verse. But we should not make it to the point of being Suggsverse-like. Restricting the number of Tier 1-A's may be problematic, so i think Dragon's reasonings of that can work. The majority of us here has seen plenty of verses back on VSBW that have a bunch of Tier 1-A's (example being the Masadaverse and Cthulhu Mythos), so i don't believe we should be any different so long as someone or anyone here knows about dimensions and of how our Tier system, that we always use and borrow from VSBW, operates. If there is a story-related reasoning for having one or so be 1-A, then one is fully alright of having such high tiered characters. Even then, it is also preferable if one did made a blog regarding why we would have such characters of this caliber and if, again, there is a story-related resoning behind this sort of thing.

I do also agree of what Promestein said of why she downgraded her characters that she had talked with Matt about. It should be important to have ones stories and writing to be over some tiering system. And i, as i may have said in some thread here a while back, believe that making OPness for the sake of Opness should be discouraged as Matthew said earlier above. I have had thoughts of wanting my Xero OC to be Tier 1 which, while i COULD actually pull it off, it'd break the story and wouldn't be fun even to do so anymore. Thus i limit to High 2-A at the most....for the time being (^^;), for the sake of my verses story setting and plot even.

@Matthew: Is there any issues besides things like "100% Hax resistance" that i should be aware of? Is also important of this too given the subject and matter at hand.
 
One thing I've noticed before (may not be an issue anymore tho.) is that characters who suddenly become Tier 0. Is that even possible. I know Tenchi Muyo exists, but wasn't that a like "I'm just restricting myself" situation? I don't see how someone who never was omnipotent can become omnipotent.
 
@Dragonmaster: I'm not sure of Tenchi Muyo's case. I think Tenchi Masaki is supposed to be some kind of Avatar or....something idek, of Kami-Tenchi.

However, no it's not possible to be Tier 0. Beings like those are already supposed to be omnipotent from the get-go. It's not something you can actually progress up to.....at all. It can be possible to be 1-A. DK about High 1-A actually but it can be for the former. Tier 0, definitely no on that.
 
Ah i forgot about him....yeah actually since you point that out, no character who has ever been omnipotent can become omnipotent as you said.

Never noticed why i never saw this before when it was as clear as day to me...that may have to be changed or perhaps deleted. Leon's not around much and i doubt i'd get him here just to change that...

Edit: Nvrmind i decided it was best to delete. There was actually at least one comment from months back that actually pointed out how bad it was and i don't believe Leon had a Tier 0 prior to that as it is a rather old page from two years ago. As i have no idea what alternative to do with it, i decided it was best to just delete it. Again, i can't see it actually happening as the same to you, Dragon.
 
There are quite a number of things regarding this NLF thing, so first I'll give my points then after that I'll adress the points already made here that I find noteworthy or have something to add as well. Here we go.

1. Full Hax Resistance: Gyrohem is one of the few verses I actually became a supporter around here so far, but with all due respect, this aspect of it looks to me like a stain on the verse. You can't have something like this.

For one, Hax is a broad term that relates to ALL abilities in EVERY VERSE that may grant a character or another some sort of advantage or powerful technique when fighting. You. Cannot. Say. Your character resists every hax in existence. That's akin to taking the rights of every verse and character that ever existed and saying that your character can resist and/or lolnope every hax they ever possessed. Fiction is vast.

And rights in fiction only go as far as one's own verse. Full hax resistant is not different than that occasion where a writer tried to say that the Omniverse was all of Fiction and reality and that TOAA (if I'm remembering correctly) was the one who created it all. Also, I have to question the actual meaning and need of "FHX" in its own home verse. It's not like the character needs resistance against every hax in existence, even those outside of his verse, to be strong or resist stuff.

2. Immunity to Reality Warping: I've seen this in a few profiles so far. I'd like to point out that I talked about that not only in threads, but I also made a thread regarding the subject myself like a month ago just in case, which might come in handy.

3. Drawing power from Higher Dimensions: I'm starting to see this one here and there. Not exactly impossible, per say, but at times it does sound like some NLF for a lower dimensional to be drawing power from higher ones and actually oneshotting enemies of a higher dimensional level. It would be like me getting the strongest cannon and alien technology so complex I wouldn't even begin to understand it but somehow using it to blow another being that is entirely beyond my comprehension from existence as well. Maybe case by case basis, not sure.

4. Faster than Irrelevant: It makes as much sense as me saying "I can go faster than blah." ...Yeah, it doesn't. You're saying you go faster than something that doesn't give a damn about whatever speed even is. Speed. Is. Irrelevant. And 1-A mechanics vary A LOT from one verse to another, so being "faster" in one verse may not at all equal being "faster" in an-You know what, this doesn't really make any sense. Arguing a stats that is irrelevant.

5. Drawing power from Tier 0: Ok, as a user I'll make my view on this very clear: Not only is it NLF, it sounds like a VERY clear attempt to make a character invincible no matter what AND circumvent the "Only one Tier 0" rule at the same time. It's like "Yeah, he fights at said level but he also has this tier 0 backing up the output of one or another of his power to wreck his opponent, even if he is LEAGUES above!"

Unless you actually ARE the very Tier 0 rather than some manifestation or another avatar, this... Is absolutely horrible for me. I'll be 100% honest: It's nothing short of cringey. Tier 0's are usually by definition beyond any and all. You may be some sort of avatar or lower manifestation or whatever. Anything bellow the Tier in question doesn't even begin to compare. In fact, in very famous verses that actually DO have Tier 0's of their own (which are extremely rare in VSB, yet are multiplying around here too lately), they're usually the ones who created everything and everyone may indeed be just an infinitely lower aspect of them...

Still, we don't see these infinitely lower facets drawing power from the Tier 0 to ACTUALLY GET TIER 0 OUTPUT just because.

By that same reasoning I could literally upgrade EVERYONE in SiPsi to Tier 0 by using "The Resonant Gene" as NLF and saying that "everyone can draw power from a High 1-A who, in turn, draws power from some higher plane of existence that is True Infinity. Since they are all connected and lower manifestations of True Infinity, they can all go Tier 0 via this".

6. OP Verses: I have absolutely nothing against someone if they want to make a verse like that. But I do mean A VERSE. Not just slap infinite tiers in everyone you can think about while making a semblance of a history, while also making your characters look no different than the powers and abilities sections of the wiki.

We're getting to the point where verses like SMT, Masadaverse and Umineko, highly regarded as some of the strongest, are slowly but surely on their path to look... Rather weak by comparison to some things we have here. And let me tell you that this is bad.

7. "Power Mimicry/Reactive Evolution"... Crossing verses. : Somewhat harder to notice, but I'll have to point out that sometimes people seem to add powers to a character on a whim, just to counter something totally unrelated to their verses. To give a simple example, the last edit I made on a character of mine some time ago added one ability to her. Less than half an hour later I saw someone (won't name) adding immunity to THAT VERY ABILITY I had just given her. Like, what? So the mechanics of your own character somehow changed out of nowhere to counter an ability of an entire unrelated character? That's some broken "Reactive Evolution" if I've ever seen one, buddy. lol By the way, this happened to me around... 4 times or so already.

That's what I remember atm.

In fact, I'll have to agree with Matt and make a Suggs reference, because some profiles do give me that sort of impression at times. In fact, I originally wouldn't even discuss this subject, but I revealed to him that I would be distancing myself from here entirely as soon as I finished a few things that I had to (like editing the Power pages for Cross and commenting on other pages) because lately, too many things were just making me feel... Not exactly good feelings when I visited the wikia. And let me tell you one more thing: Overpowered characters that are that way for the sake of it are a big part of what makes a lot of people dislike FCs/OCs in general (with prejudice).

I'm not saying things should be changed to suit anyone's tastes. In fact, leaving without saying a word was my intention before this thread was made. But this is a piece of advice: The same way I'm feeling less inclined to be around thanks to these issues, a number of other users in the future may very well feel the same. And then the Suggs thing that Matt pointed happens.
 
Also, when everyone is a broken infinite whatever or mister perfect in some sense, it stops being impressive. In fact, I've seen so many extremely powerful characters these days that by now, when I see another one being made, it's usually just that.

Another one to the bunch. Nothing special.
 
"7. "Power Mimicry/Reactive Evolution"... Crossing verses. : Somewhat harder to notice, but I'll have to point out that sometimes people seem to add powers to a character on a whim, just to counter something totally unrelated to their verses. To give a simple example, the last edit I made on a character of mine some time ago added one ability to her. Less than half an hour later I saw someone (won't name) adding immunity to THAT VERY ABILITY I had just given her. Like, what? So the mechanics of your own character somehow changed out of nowhere to counter an ability of an entire unrelated character? That's some broken "Reactive Evolution" if I've ever seen one, buddy. lol By the way, this happened to me around... 4 times or so already."


That is very suspect. But I would be very careful on that. As there is also the same possibility that they edited their character with that ability for other reason. People add and get rid of powers as time goes on. Heck I do it for my characters. However, some situations are kinda suspect.
 
Well, adding abilities and removing as time goes on is perfectly fine. It's just that immunity to the exact same ability being added in less than an hour does sound like too much of a coincidence. Besides, that isn't the only case, it's just the most recent. It happened four times, more or less to me (and not counting the cases for other users yet), in very similar conditions: Adding an ability, next thing I know someone is either adding the exact same power to their characters or immunity/counter to it. Hence, Power Mimicry/Reactive Evolution crossing verses.

Worse it is when there's no reason behind that - the character may be entirely unrelated to said power but it is added anyways because God forbid that something can ever be an advantage against them.

I had this same issue regarding "Balancing" back in my RPing community back in the day, where people would add the exact same power to their characters as soon as they noticed someone having some sort of advantage over them.
 
Thankfully, in a place like this one, this is the less consequential of the bunch because fights aren't the main point of the wiki. Unless we're talking VS Matches, in which case soon we will be getting only Inconclusive results by virtue of no one ever beating the other or being "Oneshot or be Oneshotted".
 
Again I see flaws with this point. We can't go around assuming that everyone is adding powers to a character just to counter another character....Although that has happened to me as well. But again we have to evaluate whether said person or person's addition were because of plot or in verse reasons or for "muh, my verse can't lose" reasons.

That's kind of the weakpoint of us not posting stories here as we never know. So unless it's the same person EVERY time. We shouldn't really judge. But of course it is suspect at times.

For example you add power nullification on one of your files. Then someone almost immediately adds Resistance to Power Nullification. That is too specific if that is the ONLY resistance they add. Not many people even in tier 1 verses have resistance to Power Nullification. However, said power is common nowadays.

Now we also got to remember to distinguish between Reactive Evolution and Adaption. For example many of my Brave Oni character have Reactive Evolution when in fact it should be adaption.
 
Of course, I didn't mean everyone or every verse - I just said it does happen at times.

And indeed, I agree to this. That is precisely what I meant with this point.
 
Plus that means I have files other than Yuracion Absolon to edit.........In the middle of upgrades and then I gotta fix abilities....And then blogs......Yaaaaaayyyy.....
 
Speaking of drawing power from Tier 0s or Higher-Dimensions, how about this for a rule:

Main characters who are avatar of Tier 0s can only be up to 1-A?
 
Probably 1-A. Even broken af Dies Irae and Umineko characters go up to 1-A. Freaking Hajun is 1-A. I don't see the need for High 1-A regarding this subject. Not everyone needs to be Featherine or Yog Sothoth.
 
@FateAlbane: Ah yes. I agree to about most of them at the least.

1 & 3: I see this as being a rather bad look and problem for any verse such as Gyrohem. While it is a good verse that i myself is a supporter of same as you, the idea of it having these factors are pretty.....ugh, or the same as what you said earlier. I can't say the same to 3 as what i feel with 1, but seeing it til' now here, the idea is pretty BS-ish to an extent (moreso on 1 than 3. 3 can be alright depending on WHERE and what level of higher dimensional power is one getting....power, from).

2: Yeah having immunity to reality warp shouldn't be a thing unless one were Tier 1-A and above. Even if that were a thing, the character should actually still be vulnerable to reality warping done from characters that are a whole dimensional tier above them. Kind of like what Dragon said of it.

4, 5, and 6: Agreed.

7: This one i have to agree on Dragon. People here could be adding or even taking off their abilities for reasons that can be for their verse. Though it could be of some suspect as he also said we also said we'd have to follow it on a case by case scenerio to knwo weather it is for what he had said.

Anyways, i agree with your later comments as well regarding how people be adding powers to their characters in order to not get stomped or badly beaten from them. And especially on the whole OP FC/OC problem. This is something that i've been REALLY REALLY trying to not have again anymore (or at the very least, take it down a significant notch) so that we can have actual quality level pages here. Lest we end up losing those like you and potentially others. That's rather bad for FC/OC here.
 
I am fine with 1-A, really. Don't see much of Tier 0's having High 1-A avatars....well they could but limiting the power of their avatars to at least 1-A is, again, alright enough for me.

Also Fate, none of the Masadaverse's Gods (i don't limit to just DI, yo....there's more than one part of the verse, you know) have an actual Tier 0 or even a High 1-A. They all have 1-A Gods.....that's it. Though Hajun was High 1-A initially before being downgraded but whatever.
 
@Cross Thanks!

And yes, Dragon elaborated on point 7 better than me so I agreed with him. Yes, that's what I meant. Resistance to Reality warping (even very powerful resistance like say, Emrakul) is perfectly fine, but being totally immune to it is NLF as that is kinda one of those "omnipowers" in fiction.

Indeed, point 3 is a case by case scenario while we have all agreed so far that 1 is definitely NLF.

@Dragon I'd say the main problem with this is if people put higher dimensional outputs behind the level of some of their hax by the reasoning that it is fueled by a Tier 0. Because then, say that a character like that fights another on equal dimensions - it won't be a fair match at all because there's one literally getting power from a way higher being. I believe unless they have some serious hax of their own (and not coming from another being), the output of a character should usually be on the same dimension they stand at, but that could be just me. Even then, the whole "affecting higher dimensions" can definitely be a case by case thing.
 
CrossverseCrisis said:
Also Fate, none of the Masadaverse's Gods (i don't limit to just DI, yo....there's more than one part of the verse, you know) have an actual Tier 0 or even a High 1-A. They all have 1-A Gods.....that's it. Though Hajun was High 1-A initially before being downgraded but whatever.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's why I said 1-A sounds fine for avatars, when even some of the most powerful and haxxed characters in fiction out there are 1-A as well.
 
Okay, just got finished skimming over everything everyone basically said here.

First off, I just want to say my sincerest apologies for the Full Hax Resistance scandal. When I get home, I'll be sure to add full explanations and completely revise the system.

For now though, I'll just give a summary on what I'll change:

  • The characters of the Gyrohem verse will only be able to resist hax that are shown in the verse only. I will eventually add a list of all hax that was shown in the verse so far, so don't worry about that. I know that it would be straight up NLF to say they would be able to resist anything ever, so hopefully this change would help. I would also like to clarify that it specifically says on the Gyrohem page that Full Hax Resistance does not mean immunity, just simply lessening the damage delt by said hax. It also is connected to willpower, so if a character's will isn't so great, Full Hax Resistance would only resist- say, 5% of the total damage delt. Speaking of willpower...
  • I will add a section on each of the Gyrohem characters with Full Hax Resistance with a sort of "Willpower Meter" (Don't know the permanent name yet) which will gague how much hax they're able to resist. For instance: Linx may only be able to resist 70% of said hax, so something like Durability Negation may have a slight effect on him, but not fully, or another character may only be able to take 30% of his powers, whereas they would be able to take all of it normally.
From now on, I'll be careful about my words, and try to explain it the best of my ability. I also would like to say that I, from now on, will never make immunity to reality warping unless the character is High 1-A or something (I don't even think I'll make a character that high of a tier, but meh. Just incase).

For the drawing power from higher-dimensions part, I believe this is pertaining mostly to Shiryu Rain, but Linx is also an offender of this. I'll try my best to explain this ability when I get the time to do so, but I am also sorry for not explaining this too well from the start.

The power mimicry and immunity to powers of other verses... I also feel as if it's pertaining to me too. I don't know, I feel very bad right now (I'm sorry if I did! ;A;). I'll double check my characters and see if I can do anything to nerf them later on.

Tell me if I missed anything that I should fix for my verses for future reference, and I hope to make my characters less NLF-ish eventually. Once again, I'm sorry that I'm one of the causes of this, and we can hopefully fix this problem.

Good day to ya'll! ^^;
 
Thank you for acknowledging your place in this and accepting what we have discussed, Xmark.

Anyways, I agree with the other things brought up, and with all of Fate's points.
 
Thank you as well for understanding this concern, Mark.

And do please don't take this the wrong way. As Dragon said, you aren't the only one with this problem. Your's kind of just happen to be the most prominent....at least.

But yes again, thank you for accepting of what we've discussed here up til' now.
 
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