Regarding Mind based Powers

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So this is something that has come up many times, but I have gotten multiple differing opinions on it.

Issue
So I have heard many times that we treat the likes of Memory, Empathic and Morality Manipulation as subsets of Mind Manipulation. However, as such characters who resist Mind hax also resist these powers as a result.

I have also heard that it doesn't grant these resistances to said powers. I and other users are kind of confused on this. I don't care which side is true. I just want to know how we treat said powers.

So which is it?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I believe the former.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

really depends on how its achieved. You can use pheromones to achieve emphatic manipulation, and mind manipulation resistance should not stop it. If its done through directly changing the mind I believe it should be resisted tough

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Depends how nitpicky you want to be.

They are all altering the mind, that is true.

However, you could either argue that resisting one type of mind manipulation means resisting the others, or you could argue that people need resistances to each specific type.

I personally lean towards the latter.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I don't see how having a mind manipulation give a resistance to having your memories erased.

Empathic and Morality are just a mind manipulation who make you good or evil, so this should be in the resistance to mind control.

 

[Kepekley23]

If any given series treats emotions as concepts separate from the physical human mind, it would definitely not grant resistance.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Assuming the verse considers the mind in a similar way as it is in the real world, having resistance to mind manip generally should give you resistance to all forms of it.

 

[DMB_1]

What about Madness Manipulation?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Isn't that more like Empathic Manipulation?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

They're all just subpoints, so resisting the main point would grant resistance to them.

Damn mindset of just getting out of school...

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

What about Madness Manipulation?

This.

There was a recent issue in a thread, Bayonetta vs. Doctor Doom (Marvel Comics), about Bayonetta's "Resistance to Mind/Madness Manipulation". Most of the issue concerned how Jeanne's resistance scales to Bayo, but some of it was devoted to whether Madness Manip counted as Mind Manipulation to begin with.

 

[Kepekley23]

I mean.

Love, hatred, and etc. are nothing but chemical reactions that take place in your brain, so if they are treated as such, it'd technically give you all resistances. Otherwise, it wouldn't.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

If im not mistaken is about the level of resistance.

So if someone lacks a mind and therefore can't be mind haxed, he won't be affected by the others either.

Though if it were a case of "i resist mind control' then they should work just fine.

So i say it should be treated on a case by case. So:

X has resistance to Mind Manip due to resistance to Mind Control

Y can induce fear, not MC so it bypasses resistance via X having no resistance

So i say it's the latter, unless the case is special.

Also shouldn't this be under "Q&A Board"?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I mean.

Love, hatred, and etc. are nothing but chemical reactions that take place in your brain, so if they are treated as such, it'd technically give you all resistances. Otherwise, it wouldn't.

...really? You had to go there? ovo

 

[TacticalNuke002]

This should probably be taken on a case by case basis depending on the mechanism by which these powers work.

 

[Jimboydejuan12]

bruh got checked message pop right now it.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

This should probably be taken on a case by case basis depending on the mechanism by which these powers work.

^^^

 

[TacticalNuke002]

For example, if someone resists mind hax and madness, emphatic, memeory etc. manips are applied via mental means, then the resistance stands. If they are done using chemicals, machines etc., the resistance might not apply.

 

[Kepekley23]

@Cal

Don't really like "love and hatred are spiritual" stuff that people come up with to fool themselves into thinking it was "meant to be".

 

[DMB_1]

This reminds me that I have another thread about mindhax, but it's more about resistance to it.

 

[Antvasima]

I lean towards agreeing with Monarch Laciel.

 

[Antoniofer]

Pathokinesis and mnemokinesis aren't necessary linked only to mind manipulation, they could be affected by attacking the brain, such poison or anything that allow to control the nervous system. Depending of the verse, they can be also linked to the soul and not just the mind/brain, but those are special cases.

 

[Golden_Void]

I have a feeling this is going to end up as "only characters who were explicity stated to have every part of their brain/mind affected.....qualify for having resistance to every sub-power of mind manipulation", with multiple types of mind manipulation being created.

 

[Rocker1189]

Or it should just be taken case by case. It should be looked at based on the mechanics of said mind manipulation. If not people would equate creating illusions on the outside to creating illusions in the mind these are very different in their mechanics.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

If we took the route of "every sub Type is different and needs a different resistance", then it would always be case by case.

This isn't a disagreement, just a statement

 

[Nico-v11]

I normally agree with Case by Case but we need to at least be able to judge the mind manipulation into specifications like how we have different immortality types or regen types.

 

[Wokistan]

I feel that this is another verse by verse thing. If the verse treats blanket mindhax as a thing, then sure. Lots of people consider stuff like emotions and memories to be of the mind, after all. I've seen verses portray stuff like illusionism and stuff as mental and I've seen it considered totally different. If the verse separates things though, like making emotions as more of a spiritual thing as I've seen before, then no they don't resist all subsets. I will say that resisting one subset shouldn't mean you resist others unless mindhax is shown to be a blanket effect like that. Also, with that lacking the mind thing, some verses treat that as making mindhax impossible, while others treat that as making mindhax effortless. All in all, there's not enough cross verse consistency to make wide sweeping decisions about this, and as such it should generally be case by case, with the former put into place in cases where it's uncertain beyond just resisting generic mindhax.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Resisting Empathic & Morality-related abilities does not automatically give you Mind Resistance unless their opponent uses this ability requires them to use Mind Manipulation (not every character uses mind manipulation to affect your emotions & morality as there are other ways of doing this without Mind Manip.).

 

[Sabriae]

What about cases where a character has mindhax, but has never gone up against someone else with them, or don't even have anyone else in their own verse capable of them? In those cases it's impossible to even figure out if these powers can be separated within their verse. There should be some sort of base "if we can't determine the information, then X is the assumed standard". Also in these cases, where there's never been an in-verse battle between mindhax users, should having a mindhax count as having (minor) resistance?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Having ice manipulation does not give resistance to cold inherently. Having mindhax does not make you resist mindhax either

 

[Wokistan]

Yeah, with a few exceptions that are largely verse specific just because you have one ability does not mean you resist it, especially with how there can be discrepancies in potency offensively and defensively for them.

 

[Mand21]

It depends.

You know the way some verses treat the mind as an abstract thing ultimately tied to the brain, but which some powers may touch without directly interacting with the brain, as if sending information through some astral plane of sorts? Like how most telepathy works.

Basically, if a person resists any sort of invasion of this kind, then I believe they should be able to resist all sorts of interference that works through this same umbrella of mechanism, unless stated otherwise. This includes things such as Haoshoku Haki which projects "your will" through the air as if putting "pressure" on the minds through some sort of astral plane, or anything else where the powers affect the mind as in our consciousness and what we store in our points of view.

However, someone completely invulnerable to this kind of power still can't do jackshit if an extremely badass medical alchemist from FMAB somehow manages to touch their heads and rewrite their brains, or other kind of physics based mind manipulation. This kind cannot be resisted even if you're a robot or have utter immunity against mind manipulation, so long as you have a physical medium through which your consciousness comes into being.

On the other hand, there is mind manipulation through the soul. Someone who resists this medium wherein the verse allows for mind-to-mind interaction through the two other ones will simply not resist mind manipulation otherwise.

Basically, I believe that, not just a case by case basis, but these three main mediums for mind interaction exist as a commonplace concept and wherever they can be recognized, they should be considered this way, like as in a standard model for it is indeed a "standard model" used in most of fiction.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, if those hax abilities come telepathically, then I think Mind resistance would resists most of those. Although, Madness Manipulation could also be caused by powerful drugs in some, which are chemical virus based rather than telepathic based. For example, Radical-6 which I'll talk about after I introduce Zero Escape some time might be able to get around mind resistance, but resistance to Virus manipulation might grant resistance to that.

 

[HailTheGodTwains]

I agree with the former rather than the latter, unless if it's something like erasing your memories or something like that.

 

[Mand21]

Well, if those hax abilities come telepathically, then I think Mind resistance would resists most of those. Although, Madness Manipulation could also be caused by powerful drugs in some, which are chemical virus based rather than telepathic based. For example, Radical-6 which I'll talk about after I introduce Zero Escape some time might be able to get around mind resistance, but resistance to Virus manipulation might grant resistance to that.

Yup. Meanwhile, those who resist diseases and infections might resist physical alterations of the brain. And undead characters would mostly be invulnerable to this. That's the second of the three fronts I mentioned.

 

[Eficiente]

Ah, I knew this wasn't as black and white as I was originally told.

 

[Sabriae]

Alright, so if we've got multiple different ways mindhax can be performed, and subsequently different ways that they can be resisted. Then we come across a universe where we don't know which method is being used, do we simply say "ignores immunity" because we can always argue it's using a different method than the one the immunity works against? Or are mindhax from a verse where the method is unknown technically nerfed by being affected by ALL resists, rather than just a specific type of resist?

In other words, does this mean that someone could argue 40Ks God Emperor of Mankind (4B minimum) has no resistance against Composite XCOM Soldier's (8B) permanent mind control ability, since 40K mind manipulation works through Warp powers and XCOM doesn't?

You've also got the option for people to say "we haven't seen anyone resist mindhax from verse X, therefore it's impossible to have resistance to this particular type of mindhax".

This points to needing an agreed upon "base state" for mindhax whenever the information is unavailable. And I suggested giving mindhax users from verses where we haven't seen such individuals ever go up against another mindhax user resistance so that we never end up in a situation where a 4A who can easily mind control an entire planet goes down to a 9A with a half hour mind control simply because the 4B had never come up against another mindhax-er while the 9A had.

 

[Wokistan]

GEOM's not the best example there. His mind is high 1-B/1-A, so it would resist regardless, and for some people the warp is more a power source than the power itself. Lots of people channel the warp too, but that's not how all the mindhax works. Doesn't verse equalization cover things like that anyways?

 

[Wokistan]

There's nothing wrong with your example of the 4A mindhaxxer losing against a 9A mindhaxer who I guess is just faster at mindhaxing if the 4A never resisted. Not sure why that shouldn't happen, mindhax doesn't immediately give you resistance.

 

[Endless_Astrograph_Sorcerer]

IMO it should be taken on a case by case basis tied to how any given fiction treats the relevant mindhax.

If it could be determined that mindhax in a verse give the user total control of the target's thought processes on both a physical and some non-physical (spiritual, astral whatever the author chooses) level, then resisting mindhax in that verse should probably give the resisting character resistance to Mind, Morality, Empathic, and Memory Manip.