Regarding Mind based Powers

[Mand21]

Regardless of whether they call it warp powers, esper powers, magic or whatever, it doesn't matter.

What of the character is being affected? Their subjective mind and consciousness/POV, their physical organ called a brain, or a metaphysical essence which contains but is not restricted to one's personality and thoughts?

If Warhammer uses warp powers but ultimately treats the mind as one's subjective perception and aperception, then there's no reason to believe that Erago wouldn't be able to tank it based on just that. Rather, he might be able to stomp with the Eldunarí.

 

[Wokistan]

40K's generally not the greatest example to use here. The warp isn't a magical system, but a place. A lot of sorcery and stuff is derived from the warp, but non warp magic exists. It's not one of those weird systems that only a member of that system can use it, the GEOM's mind is just high 1-B/1-A scaling off the Chaos gods who're that strong in the warp. Fairly certain that different powers affecting all three of what mand described have shown up. Also, I don't think Eragon can tank mind hax that affected multiple solar systems, and the Eldunari isn't high 1-B/1-A, at least in the GEOM's case.

 

[Mand21]

...well, I guess he indeed can't. Even with the best of his magic and efforts he could at best fend it off from himself if it was focused on the Earth alone but the Earth as a whole. Lol, 40k really is broken. Moving on. I wonder if we have managed to create a consensus that satisfies OP's doubts.

 

[Sabriae]

40K is an example, though, and therefore we need a system that includes it. And saying "the GEOM's mind is just high 1-B/1-A", does that mean that simply having a higher level of any mind power at all gives immunity to any lower level mind manipulation feats?

 

[Wokistan]

I was saying it's a poor example because it's contrary to the point he was trying to make with it. His disembodied consciousness itself is high 1-B/1-A, that's what the second key represents. Having a higher dimensions mind does indeed do that. His mindhax in tier 4 form is not that strong. It's not like that due to mental powers, that's just the tier his mind has.

 

[Agnaa]

40K is an example, though, and therefore we need a system that includes it. And saying "the GEOM's mind is just high 1-B/1-A", does that mean that simply having a higher level of any mind power at all gives immunity to any lower level mind manipulation feats?

Yes that's how it's currently treated on the wiki.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here? I am not the right person to evaluate this kind of issue myself, as it seems to depend on whether or not the fiction in question is separating such abilities or treating them as connected.

 

[Wokistan]

Largely a case by case basis seems to be a commonality with the opinions in this thread. I don't think which of the two options is assumed if the verse doesn't make it clear is really conclusively agreed on yet though.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Should this be mentioned in the Mind Manipulation page?

 

[Wokistan]

I mean I guess, though I would personally wait and see if there could be more of a consensus on what to assume when the verse doesn't specify. Maybe give it another day?

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, of course.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, Tier and hax have are completely inseparable. A character could be 3-A and still have very basic mind hax, while a 9-C character could have like Multiversal levels of mind hax. And same with Offensive Mind hax =/= Mind resistance; though, characters who have numerous minds sharing one body could potentially have good mind resistance.

 

[Wokistan]

Having a higher dimensional mind means your mind is more than infinitely more complex. Being higher dimensional in the context of this wiki generally gives you absolute superiority over lower dimensional beings. We scale hax like that by dimension, not AP. Emprah resists < infinite/beyond dimensional mindhax not for having high 1-B/1-A levels of power in the warp, but because his mind is on that dimensional scale. "Tier 8 mindhax" is not a thing that exists, and mindhax users don't immediately get resistances unless they're shown to.

 

[Antvasima]

This thread seems to have derailed from the original purpose. Perhaps it would be best to delete some posts to get back on track.

Also, Sabriae you can check out our Dimensional Tiering page.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sabriae

We are not going to change our tiering system for you. Also, please stop derailing.

 

[Mand21]

Is a higher-dimensional mind really infinitely more complex? I can see how it works for AP/SS/Dura, but not Intelligence of all things. It doesn't seem to me like a 4-D brain would be an infinite pileup of 3-D brains, but rather four-dimensionally organized neurons, and thought the immunity to mindhax was rather because a three-dimensional hax user cannot affect a four-dimensional target to begin with. Can someone clarify this aspect, given its relevance to the OP?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There's a big difference between an 4-D being and a 3-D being with a 4-D degree of power. 3-D beings can have 4-D degrees of AP/SS/Durability and even hax. As for 4-D minds, examples could be like Non-Corporeal beings; such as a Peak Human physical body that's possessed and being controlled by an Omnipresent deity is an example. A character would need Mind hacking abilities stronger than the Non-Corporeal diety's in order to control the peak human avatar.

As for other examples of 4-D brains, aside the the some Non-Corporeal beings as an example, Zero Escape, which has yet to be introduced on the site, is a good example of surprisingly potent mind hax. No one has any physical feats that exceed Peak human, but all Espers in the series possess a mind that can transcend through the 4th dimension, aka time. They can transfer their memories to their past and future selves, and to themselves from other timelines/universes, which in turn grants themselves precognition and awareness to other universes. Each time they do it also makes them continuously more resistant to mind and memory manipulation, and they can potentially do it an infinite number of times. And it's especially in timelines and periods in which said character dies, in which they transfer all their memories from that timeline to another timeline or period.

 

[Agnaa]

@Sabriae It's uncountably infinitely large from a 3-dimensional frame of reference, and only finite from a 4-dimensional frame of reference.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, stop derailing.