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Regarding Gohan's 3-A Rating

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Promestein said:
I agree with Matt here, the fight makes it pretty clear that Gohan was holding back until Goku went SSB.
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They were both holding back at first, until Gohan asked to fight at full power.

Edit: They were both holding back before goku tells Gohan "Gohan, release more power!" Then things get serious from here.
 
>Um, what? Gohan states twice hes using his full power against goku in both forms.

No he doesn't.

"Gohan, release more power!" - SSJ2 Goku to Gohan as he is winning.

"Get serious, dad!" - Gohan to SSJ2 Goku, after releasing more power and starting to beat his father.

"Please get serious, dad!" - Gohan to SSJ2 Goku, overpowering him again.

"Fight me at full strength! At full strength! See my full strength! This is my full strength!" - Gohan to Super Saiyan Blue Goku at the end of the fight.

They both increased their power 4 times during the fight and each power-increase was indicated by the dialogue.

This is transparent.
 
Joseph619 said:
You think all of them are PIS?
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I wouldn't say PIS, i would say...way too bad scripted.

I just think that waiting till the arc ends with more solid feats should be better than just upgrading to right and left.
 
Seeing as how DBS has shown us that the levels of these characters fluctuates rapidly depending on if they've been training or not, I'd be inclined to believe that Goku just isn't quite at his peak rather than that Gohan is 3-A.

I mean, ignoring the whole SSJ2 debacle, you'd have to argue that Gohan went from 4-B to 3-A in hours. How in the world does that work?

In the Cell Saga they train for months to get from a stellar class to a solar system class. In the Saiyan Saga they train for months to get from a level where they can destroy moons to one where they can destroy worlds.

Yet Gohan is magically capable of training billions of times more effectively than anyone else in the universe? Not even Vegeta got to the level of an SSJB that fast, and he had specialized training to do exactly that.
 
DBS image
Says this too Goku at SS2

DBS2image
Gohan realizes Goku is holding back on him

DBS3image
Repeats this too him as he knows Goku is hesitating to go all out

DBS4image
Begs him too go higher to see how much he compares.

Goku goes SSB with kaioken and literally one shots Gohan in one blow. When Goku went SSB Gohan only landed two blows and did literally nothing to Goku. At this point in time I don't agree with Gohan scaling to Goku and support the argument from Aizen and the others.
 
It's stupid and doesn't make sense but it's what happened.
 
" I'd be inclined to believe that Goku just isn't quite at his peak rather than that Gohan is 3-A."

Except that's not the case. Goku trains constantly. He became Universal in the Battle of Gods arc, since them he has trained for 3 years + has spend 2 other years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

Goku now >>>>>>>> Baseline 3-A Goku from before.

"You'd have to argue that Gohan went from 4-B to 3-A in hours. How in the world does that work?"

Hidden. Potential. Done.

Gohan had lost his Hidden Potential from lacking, and after training, training that he has done for years with Piccolo by now, he awakens it back, and reaches the level of a God. This is consistent with the story as both Goku and Vegeta previously mentioned multiple times that Gohan's potential is greater than theirs.

"Yet Gohan is magically capable of training billions of times more effectively than anyone else in the universe?"

Argument from incredulity. The power boosts are not dependent on the actual gap in joules between each tier, but on what is shown in the story. In this case, Gohan did become Universal by awakening his Hidden Potential after training.

The gap between 4-B and 3-A is wholly irrelevant to the discussion.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Grudge

No, Gohan is stronger than base Super Saiyan Blue Goku

https://youtu.be/tKmqJk2NhQc?t=180

See here. His punch didn't do shit against Gohan.
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I'd chalk that up to pis or Goku holding back, either way one punch from Goku who was still hesitating is not enough to warrent the upgrade. We should wait for better feats in the tournament arc

He got knocked out in one hit after Goku went all out.
 
Okay, but can you give an explanation that ties to what's shown on screen? Most of you guys' arguments come from personal belief or incredulity.

"I think"

"In my opinion"

"I don't believe"

"How does this work"

And statements of the like.

You are welcome to disagree, but I would invite all of you to analyze the scene proper, the dialogue and the visuals, and the context that Super has been establishing since after the Universe 6 Arc.

Gohan awakened to his Hidden Potential, a potential which was established multiple times to be above Goku and Vegeta, which is shown in this fight where Goku needs to use his full power, Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken (Likely x10 since Gohan kept demanding he used all of his power) to beat him.
 
If Goku was holding back in SSB why'd he power up to SSBKK? That'd be completely unnecessary, and there's no indication of Goku holding back. And yeah, he got oneshot by SSBKK Goku. SSBKK Goku's a lot stronger than SSB Goku. That doesn't change anything.
 
"I'd chalk that up to pis or Goku holding back, either way one punch from Goku who was still hesitating is not enough to warrent the upgrade."

>Goku holding back >holding back

I mean, sure, that would be possible if it weren't contradicted by the entire context of the entire fight, and the fact that goku needs to use SSB xKaioken to beat Gohan.

The entire fight is about Gohan continuously pushing Goku to use his full power against him. It's Gohan overpowering everything Goku throws at him until the Kaioken.
 
I'd be more inclined to believe that if the fight was longer, I can't make a definitive conclusion based on 3 punches.
 
Pikachu942 said:
I'd be more inclined to believe that if the fight was longer, I can't make a definitive conclusion based on 3 punches.
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The number of punches is irrelevant if the entire context of the fight showcases Gohan continuously overpowering Goku and pushing him to use and more and more of his power.
 
Promestein said:
If Goku was holding back in SSB why'd he power up to SSBKK? That'd be completely unnecessary, and there's no indication of Goku holding back. And yeah, he got oneshot by SSBKK Goku. SSBKK Goku's a lot stronger than SSB Goku. That doesn't change anything.
Click to expand...
He transformed because Gohan asked him to.

And Goku has been transforming against everyone for little reason. Like Bergamo and Krillin

As the picture Grudge posted clearly shows, Gohan states this is his full power to SSJ2 Goku, who he stalemates. Then in a quick exchange he stalemates ssb goku.

The only way this is possible is if hes holding back or pure PIS

Im honestly not sure what context you guys are on about. It's bordering on headcanon. The scans dont lie.
 
@Aizen

If you wanna talk about scans... Please read my post again, carefully.

Matthew Schroeder said:
Also. Guys, what happens in the fight can be very easily interpreted, just look at it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKmqJk2NhQc

At first they are matching each other normally, with Ultimate Gohan vs Super Saiyan 2. Then here come the people say

"Oh, but if SSJ2 Goku is matching Gohan, he can't later match SSB, it's PIS!"

Yeah, not really.

They are both clearly holding back. Yes, they may look to be serious, but this is very common in Dragon Ball.

Goku vs Freeza: Both opponents were holding back tremendously during most of their fight, yet by visuals alone they appeared dead serious.

Goku vs Cell: Both were sparring and holding back a lot, yet without dialogue you wouldn't tell.

Similar thing happens here.

At 1:25, Goku screams: "Gohan, release more power!"

So up until then Gohan was holding back.

At 1:45, Gohan gets more serious and hits Goku with a punch to the gut that by Goku's expression was really painful. Then he continues to beat the shit out of Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

At 2:00, after kicking Goku's ass, he says: "Get serious, dad!"

Goku does get more serious and they match each other briefly.

And at 2:20, he says it again: "Please get serious, dad!", and then quickly overpowers Goku again. Gohan powers up to 100%, indicated by the sudden aura he gains. He says "Fight me at full strength! At full strength! See my full strength!",screaming "This is my full strength!", to which Goku replies by going Super Saiyan Blue.

So no, Goku WASN'T holding back when he went SSB there. To suggest that he was would be to ignore the fight's entire context.

At 2:50, we see the result of Goku and Gohan clashing, both at 100%.

Gohan punches Goku, then Goku punches Gohan again. Then Gohan exclaims again "At my full strength!", dashing. Goku punches Gohan, and it doesn't do jack shit. Gohan punches Goku away, who goes Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken. And only the does Goku stop being matched and surpassed by Gohan's strength.

Gohan with his Unleashed Potential is universal. He is stronger than Base Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

This is what's shown in the episode. Being Universal in Dragon Ball isn't special anymore. The supposed massive gap between tiers is not something that the plot cares for, and neither should you.

To suggest that Gohan simply can't be Super Saiyan Blue level is to ignore the entire context of Gohan Unlocking his Potential (Which Vegeta and Goku both stated in previous episodes is greater than theirs).

Gohan is Super Saiyan Blueberry level.
Click to expand...
 
I feel you think we did not read your message, we did, it's not like it was in another language like Portuguese or something.

The thing you guys are claiming to be "context", just feels more like headcanon to the rest of us.
 
I read it and you are just chery picking evidence that fits with your headcanon.

>Scans says Gohan is going FP against SSJ2 Goku

>B-b-but muh context!!

Gohan telling his dad to get serious does not mean Gohan wasn't serious. Again you're ignoring the scan for your headcanon.
 
@Thebluedash

It is not a headcanon. It is the plot and it is what has been established with many episodes now. Gohan with Hidden Potential > Goku and Vegeta. This episode confirms it.

It may seem unbelieavable to you. You might not want to accept it. You might be frustrated this is happening, but it did. The plot and context shows it.

Showing Gohan's statements while ignoring everything else, and claiming that "He just begged Goku to go 100% and got stomped" is to ignore practically everything of the whole fight.

Gohan briefly overpowered Super Saiyan Blueberry. That was shown. Goku only won with Kaioken.

If he was holding back so much, he wouldn't need to use Kaioken. If he was so much stronger, Gohan wouldn't have tanked his punch.

And no, I don't think you didn't read the post, but I supect you didn't get the message, specially when they ignore the proven context and repeat theories and personal beliefs. Which is why I repeat it.
 
LordAizenSama said:
I read it and you are just chery picking evidence that fits with your headcanon.
>Scans says Gohan is going FP against SSJ2 Goku

>B-b-but muh context!!

Gohan telling his dad to get serious does not mean Gohan wasn't serious. Again you're ignoring the scan for your headcanon.
Click to expand...
Aizen, first I would kindly appreciate if you weren't smug like that. That indicates anger and a lack of arguments.

Firstly, nice strawman.

Secondly, you are once again ignoring what happened.

At 1:25, Goku screams: "Gohan, release more power!" So up until then Gohan was holding back.

At 1:45, Gohan gets more serious and hits Goku with a punch to the gut that by Goku's expression was really painful. Then he continues to beat the shit out of Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

At 2:00, after kicking Goku's ass, he says: "Get serious, dad!" Goku does get more serious and they match each other briefly.

And at 2:20, he says it again: "Please get serious, dad!", and then quickly overpowers Goku again. Gohan powers up to 100%, indicated by the sudden aura he gains.

He says "Fight me at full strength! At full strength! See my full strength!",screaming "This is my full strength!", to which Goku replies by going Super Saiyan Blue.

Gohan wasn't at full power during SSJ2 Goku, or else he wouldn't have grossly overpowered him, as he did here:

https://youtu.be/tKmqJk2NhQc?t=105

Or did you not watch the scene in full?
 
Matt I think it's more you're frustrated that we aren't jumping to conclusions based on a 10 second clip of 3 punches. Krillin somewhat pushed back SSB Goku's Kamehameha in a beam struggle, but obviously that was PIS. Like we've been saying, wait until the tournament.
 
Pikachu942 said:
Matt I think it's more you're frustrated that we aren't jumping to conclusions based on a 10 second clip of 3 punches. Krillin somewhat pushed back SSB Goku's Kamehameha in a beam struggle, but obviously that was PIS. Like we've been saying, wait until the tournament.
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No, I'm not frustrated.

Secondly, false equivalency.

Kuririn is established as being weaker than Pre-Training Base Gohan. And Goku went SSB to test Kuririn's resolve. And was stated to be holding back.

Meanwhile Gohan has been stated by both Goku and Vegeta to have a potential greater than theirs. Gohan awakened to his potential.

In their fight, Gohan pushes Goku into continuously using more and more of his strength until he is forced to use Kaioken to end the fight.

There is no possible interpretation other than Ultimate Gohan > Super Saiyan Blue Goku.
 
The Everlasting said:
snip
Click to expand...
Digimon literally got half of it's character upgraded to High 2-A and immeasurable, Yggdrasil got high godly Regenerationn. The God Tiers became Low 1-C and if we get more confirmation they can go EVEN HIGHER.

I do not see why they're saying that the main upgrades are just DB and Pokemon.

@LordAizenSama what happens > word of god
 
Matt, there is many possible interpretations, like the one many others feel is true, including myself.

Base Gohan=Base Goku, which means Ultimate Gohan is>>>SSJ2 Goku, which I agree with. SSB Goku>>>Ultimate Gohan, however, and he went SSBKKx10 because Gohan pleaded with him to show him his full power, and then proceeded to get oneshotted.

Like I said, we should wait until the tournament before doing any more scaling, there's not enough evidence to make a definitive claim.
 
> first I would kindly appreciate if you weren't smug like that. That indicates anger and a lack of arguments

Takes one to know one, I guess?

Seems like I'm wasting my time.
 
Let's try and be civil here ye? Otherwise we're gonna end up having no choice but to close the thread.
 
@Pikachu942

No, there is one intepretation which is what is shown on-screen.

I am the only one who is arguing by using the entire scene, pointing to specific moments in the scene where this or that happens. I am not arguing like Grudge who posted Gohan's statements and ignored the rest of the scene, or most other people which are either arguing from disbelief / incredulity, or personal opinion.

"Base Gohan=Base Goku, which means Ultimate Gohan is>>>SSJ2 Goku, which I agree with."

And how does that disprove that Ultimate Gohan is > Blueberry?

"SSB Goku>>>Ultimate Gohan, however, and he went SSBKKx10 because Gohan pleaded with him to show him his full power, and then proceeded to get oneshotted."

Please explain how that's the case with the scene.

https://youtu.be/tKmqJk2NhQc?t=169

Really weird for the supposedly stronger guy's punch to not do crap, and be send many feet away, and subsequently only defeat his opponent by multiplying his power by x2 to x10 times.
 
Lets try not to turn this into the Portuguese Colonial War here, and be civil.

Anyways, you guys should probably cool off a bit before replying. @LordAizen / @Matt
 
Regardless, Aizen did not answer my argument in his last post, but rather just insulted me. I too would appreciate if this was kept civil.
 
That particular was stuck out to me because I'm learning in class right now. Anyways let stay on topic guys. Ooo
 
I'm think I'm being fairly calm, just explaining my point of view on the matter. Like I said, there are several possibly interpretations, which means I am not saying your's is outright wrong. I'm simply saying there is not enough data to properly upgrade Gohan, so we should wait. Gohan is my favorite Dragonball character, so when he becomes definitively 3-A I'll be the first to defend it.
 
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