Regarding Gohan's 3-A Rating

[Sera_EX]

I'd appreciate it if we did.

 

[Antvasima]

Everybody please calm down before this gets out of hand.

Anyway, I agree with Matthew regarding Gohan's potential being awakened, and that he clearly surpassed regular SSB.

I also agree with others that it seemed like bad writing to have him do so after a few hours, but that does not change the facts.

However, I am far too busy to constantly argue about it for hundreds of posts.

That said, for the logic to work out with other characters such as Piccolo, I also think that we should upgrade their Dragon Ball Super states to the OBD levels.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Antvasima

This is basically how I feel. It is stupid but it's what's happening.

And about the power of the other characters, this is something I've been debating with Everlasting, Ventus and Sera myself.

 

[Antvasima]

As a compromise, perhaps we could simply downgrade Gohan a bit if he handles himself badly during the tournament?

 

[Thebluedash]

Can you define "a bit"?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Anyway, I agree with Ant, Sera, Ven, Dragon and Ever that Gohan scales to SSB.

I also agree that it is weird.

And I also agree that we should stop DBS threads until the end of the arc. This upgrade, basedon this episode, is legitimate, but perhaps we should make it a rule not to do DBS upgrades until the end of each story arc.

 

[Thebluedash]

How about we start now with that rule? If we change it now whether it'll be correct or wrong will make a large chunk of people not happy until proven wrong.

 

[Joseph619]

I think the upgrade for Gohan based on a single episode is somewhat premature. We wait weeks to possibly months to upgrade other verses. There's a big tournament coming up where stats for most U7 participants except Goku and Vegeta will be changed when it's over. We should wait before we before changing stats, especially for an inconsistent mess like Dragon Ball Super

 

[Antvasima]

Well, regardless, we probably need another revision thread regarding whether or not we should upgrade other characters, such as Piccolo and Majin Buu, to the OBD's Multi-Galaxy ratings. Currently our statistics do not make much sense in this regard.

 

[Sera_EX]

There's already a thread for that discussion.

 

[Joseph619]

Anyway, I agree with Matthew regarding Gohan's potential being awakened, and that he clearly surpassed regular SSB.

I watched the fight, I didn't see any part where Gohan 'clearly' surpassed regular SSB.

 

[Thebluedash]

We should also bring up the topic of Roshi oneshotting Tien. He should have the same tiering as Tien. Tien was not using "Ki control" to hold back which I feel have been used for a lot of things lately.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Dash

I will need to look into it, and also look at God Movement's thoughts on the matter. God Movement is the most knowledgeable Dragon Ball debater online, so I trust his judgment.

 

[Antvasima]

Goku had to use SSBKK to exceed Gohan. Vegeta is Universe level with just SSB. As such, Gohan should qualify as well.

 

[Grudgeman1706]

Everybody please calm down before this gets out of hand.

Anyway, I agree with Matthew regarding Gohan's potential being awakened, and that he clearly surpassed regular SSB.

Ant I'm sure you did not watch the show(probably due to your tight schedule.) but Goku goes literally SSB for like 10 seconds and only goes higher cus gohan wanted to face him at a higher lower level to test his strength.

Literally nothing in that 10 second span showed gohan surpassing Goku. I don't know where u came to that conclusion.

He took like 1-3 punches and at least two of those are blocked or dodged with one of them connecting and got any other verse this would not be enough to Upgrade a character scaling.

 

[Joseph619]

Goku had to use SSBKK to exceed Gohan. Vegeta is Universe level with just SSB. As such, Gohan should qualify as well.

Goku only transformed to SSB at Gohan's request, at no point he was being overwhelmed by Gohan in SSB. I don't see how Gohan exceed's regular SSB. Goku also went SSB against Krillin, does it mean Krillin has surpassed SSJ? Goku was holding back, or so what everybody says

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Grudge and Joseph.

Gohan tanked Goku's punch. Goku had to use Kaioken to surpass him.

Goku wasn't holding back, are you ignoring the fight's entire context?

 

[ProspectX]

Goku deemed it necessary to go into SSB to fight gohan, or not. Really you can never tell if goku is holding back or not because of his constant excitement and hype. I would say if vegeta acknowledged gohan's power then it's enough.

 

[Joseph619]

Grudge and Joseph.
Gohan tanked Goku's punch. Goku had to use Kaioken to surpass him.

Goku wasn't holding back, are you ignoring the fight's entire context?

Goku was holding back before he went SSB. Gohan didn't ask Goku to fight at full strength after Goku transformed to SSB. Goku went SSB KK on his own, Gohan did not force him or request him. Just as Krillin did not force Goku to go SSB. I am not ignoring any context.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, Goku stopped holding back when he went SSB.

"Gohan didn't ask Goku to fight at full strength after Goku transformed to SSB"

What logic is this?

Gohan keeps overpowering Goku throughout the whole fight, while repeatedly asking Goku to stop holding back. When Gohan declares "This is my full power!" Goku responds by going SSB, and still gets overpowered, needing to use Kaioken.

"Oh, but he wasn't going 100% at SSB"

If he wasn't and could have stomped Gohan without Kaioken, why use it?

Goku needed the Kaioken to defeat Gohan.

By claiming that Goku was holding back when he goes Super Saiyan Blue, you are ignoring all of Gohan and Goku's lines and how they fought up until then.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also. Guys, what happens in the fight can be very easily interpreted, just look at it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKmqJk2NhQc

At first they are matching each other normally, with Ultimate Gohan vs Super Saiyan 2. Then here come the people say

"Oh, but if SSJ2 Goku is matching Gohan, he can't later match SSB, it's PIS!"

Yeah, not really.

They are both clearly holding back. Yes, they may look to be serious, but this is very common in Dragon Ball.

Goku vs Freeza: Both opponents were holding back tremendously during most of their fight, yet by visuals alone they appeared dead serious.

Goku vs Cell: Both were sparring and holding back a lot, yet without dialogue you wouldn't tell.

Similar thing happens here.

At 1:25, Goku screams: "Gohan, release more power!"

So up until then Gohan was holding back.

At 1:45, Gohan gets more serious and hits Goku with a punch to the gut that by Goku's expression was really painful. Then he continues to beat the shit out of Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

At 2:00, after kicking Goku's ass, he says: "Get serious, dad!"

Goku does get more serious and they match each other briefly.

And at 2:20, he says it again: "Please get serious, dad!", and then quickly overpowers Goku again. Gohan powers up to 100%, indicated by the sudden aura he gains. He says "Fight me at full strength! At full strength! See my full strength!",screaming "This is my full strength!", to which Goku replies by going Super Saiyan Blue.

So no, Goku WASN'T holding back when he went SSB there. To suggest that he was would be to ignore the fight's entire context.

At 2:50, we see the result of Goku and Gohan clashing, both at 100%.

Gohan punches Goku, then Goku punches Gohan again. Then Gohan exclaims again "At my full strength!", dashing. Goku punches Gohan, and it doesn't do jack shit. Gohan punches Goku away, who goes Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken. And only the does Goku stop being matched and surpassed by Gohan's strength.

Gohan with his Unleashed Potential is universal. He is stronger than Base Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

This is what's shown in the episode. Being Universal in Dragon Ball isn't special anymore. The supposed massive gap between tiers is not something that the plot cares for, and neither should you.

To suggest that Gohan simply can't be Super Saiyan Blue level is to ignore the entire context of Gohan Unlocking his Potential (Which Vegeta and Goku both stated in previous episodes is greater than theirs).

Gohan is Super Saiyan Blueberry level.

Once again, my full analysis of the fight, with a link to the video of the fight, quotations and timeframes, alongside descriptions of what happens in each timeframe.

I'm the only one actually posting the full fight and analysing it in full here. There is nothing in it indicating that Goku was holding back when he used SSB against Gohan. Him only defeating Gohan after Kaioken is obvious proof that he (Goku) needed to multiply his 100% power to overcome Gohan.

So far it is SSB Kaioken Goku > Ultimate Gohan > SSB Goku

 

[Joseph619]

Goku responds by going SSB, and still gets overpowered, needing to use Kaioken.

Proof? When did Gohan overpower Goku in SSB? That's the same as saying Krillin overpowered SSJ Goku. What's the point of bringing up conversation Pre SSB? We're upgrading Gohan based on his interactions with SSB Goku only, and Goku was not overwhelmed. Goku transformed to Kaioken because he wanted to. Look at the Krillin analogy again

 

[Thebluedash]

I was only thinking about Krillin analogy, he pushed Goku's Kamehame back at one point then we brushed it off as Goku holding back. Why aren't we doing the same here til more evidence?

 

[Sera_EX]

Can we please just wait? How hard is that?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Joseph

Here's proof:

https://youtu.be/tKmqJk2NhQc?t=180

Tanked Goku's punches. Goku then had to use Kaioken to win.

You don't get more transparent than that.

"That's the same as saying Krillin overpowered SSJ Goku"

Bad argument.

We know for a fact that Base Goku > Base Gohan Pre-Potential >>> Kuririn.

And we know for a fact that Goku only went SSB to test Kuririn's resolve.

"What's the point of bringing up conversation Pre SSB?"

Because it proves that the argument that many of you were, and still are using, that "Goku was holding back", is fale. It is contradicted by the fight.

Goku went 100% in his SSB state against Gohan, per Gohan's request. Not only did Gohan endure his punches, but replied in kind and actually hurt Goku. Goku only won with Kaioken.

 

[Thebluedash]

Can we please just wait? How hard is that?

Why are you telling to stop the conversation when we're doing it in a civil way, are you that annoyed of people disagreeing with your side?

 

[Thebluedash]

Also let me explain why you telling us to just wait makes no sense. We're telling the Matt side to wait til more proof for Gohan 3-A, so who's the one not waiting?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I was only thinking about Krillin analogy, he pushed Goku's Kamehame back at one point then we brushed it off as Goku holding back. Why aren't we doing the same here til more evidence?

Because it is a false equivalency, you are deliberatedly withholding context from both fights and characters to make the comparison to make us seem biased.

I am simply coldly analyzing the fight and coming with the logical conclusion that Gohan is at least comparable to Blueberry.

 

[Sera_EX]

I don't have a side first of all, please quote me where I said I agree with Gohan being 3-A or downgraded. Second of all, yes it's extremely annoying. This debate is going in literal circles and it was already stated we should wait for the actual tournament to begin before taking any further action.

 

[Hit_The_Badass]

Well I can wait till tournament to settle things up. Can't say the same for you guys?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Sure.

 

[Joseph619]

Bad argument.

Bad arugment how? And no we don't know for fact since there's a lot of cherry picking going on here. So Gohan tanking SSB Goku's punches makes Goku overwhelmed? That's it? I do not see how that makes Gohan 'overwhelm' SSB Goku. I didn't say anything about Goku holding back in SSB, I said Gohan didn't overwhelm SSB Goku, and Goku went to Kaioken in his own volition just as he did with Krillin. As I said earlier

"Goku went 100% in his SSB state against Gohan"

Sounds like headcanon to me. Goku never said being at full power against Gohan in SSB, and using earlier conversations proves nothing, I am sorry to say

 

[Antoniofer]

We have to deal with this any week now? this seems kinda pointless for me and pretty repetitive... I suggest to turn back any drastic change made and just waits until the arc end. There's another inconcludes DB threads too, this one shouldn't have relevance above the others.

I'm pretty tired right now, I have 2 expo, 1 project defense and 1 test tomorrow, so I wouldn't reply after this post.

 

[Joseph619]

I will reiterate one of my earlier post, upgrading Gohan to 3-A based on 1 episode was premature and we will get to see his full power at the tournament. We wait for other verses to upgrade in case for controversy, we should've done the same for Gohan. He was upgraded hastily and should be reverted. Cherry picking characters doesn't help the case.

 

[Antvasima]

@Grudgeman I did watch the show, yes. I get a few hours left over in my schedule most days.

@Matthew Since this discussion seems to cause controversy and bad blood, perhaps it would be better to reverse the upgrade for the time being, until the tournament arc is over. I still agree with you, but it doesn't hurt to be patient and wait for a few months.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree with reversing the upgrade, because there is no evidence that Goku wasn't going 100% at SSB against Gohan.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Joseph

I explained why it is a bad argument and why Goku was 100% in SSB in the posts above.

 

[Thebluedash]

Give me the evidence that Goku wasn't going full power at Krillin?

 

[Thebluedash]

If you're going to upgrade Gohan, why not Krillin? What's the difference? Because it wouldn't make sense? Earlier you said so yourself that DBS is filled with bad writing, so why can't Krillin be as strong as Goku?

 

[Joseph619]

If you're going to upgrade Gohan, why not Krillin? What's the difference? Because it wouldn't make sense? Earlier you said so yourself that DBS is filled with bad writing, so why can't Krillin be as strong as Goku?

Cherry picking