Regarding Chara's Tiering.

[Lina_Shields]

I could not find a thread regarding this topic in the forum so I was hoping some of the experienced users can help on this one. When you, Frisk completed the genocide route in the game, Chara appears to you and speaks to you, laughs, and the game crashes. What actually happened?

First of all, the entire incident where Chara talks to you happens outside the gamespace (universe is too minor of a word for this). This would mean that they are at least a dimension above the Undertale's gamespace. The Flowey and Asriel battles, while stated to be completely outside the universe of Undertale, are still done inside the gamespace, as it is part of the story that you have to beat. You are unable to even battle Chara because she is a part of you, but it could also be that she is above the game's dimension.

Also, Chara is the only character that is able to interact to the player outside the gamespace. Even Flowey and Asriel are unable to accomplish this, even in their true forms (2-A). Chara permanently affects your game's savedata by overwriting it so that not even a TRUE RESET erases Chara's presence in the game (the true reset would erase everything in the game, thus would affect even Flowey and Asriel as well). This means that Chara is basically above the entire game altogether.

Basically, (Undertale universe) -> (gamespace multiverse) -> (Chara) in terms of dimensions.

TL;DR: True Reset doesn't erase Chara's influence in the game, thus Chara > Asriel/Flowey.

Therefore, I would like to propose an upgrade for Chara to: "2-B, likely High 2-A".

I also believe this upgrade also suit Chara's omnipresence, as he is the only one that is omnipresent (barring Asriel at FULL power, which is a maybe).

Apologies if this is blatant wank.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Chara is outright stated to be lower than Omega Flowey, who is weaker than Asriel in turn.

Also Asriel was holding back terribly in that fight, and Flowey willingly reseted his memories.

 

[Lina_Shields]

It is stated, but actions say otherwise. Also Asriel went full power on the pacifist route at the end, and you still beat him.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Hmm. Would i perhaps get Azathoth here to give his input? Other than Saikou and some others that i have no clue what to name as, he's practically one of the best Undertale experts we got here...

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yes but tht's Frisk, not Chara fighting Asriel.

Also, as I said, both were holding back, none of them showed any really strong feat on their own.

Also Chara has immortality due to being linked with the player, so they can come back even after being killed.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

and Flowey willingly reseted his memories.

Flowey can't "Reset his memories willingy" you force a true reset since Flowey is not willing to do the same again. And since you reset to return everything to its original state. You NEED to erase his memories.

 

[Lina_Shields]

I am still incredibly frustrated that the true reset (which is supposed to erase everything in that dimension, which is the game) cannot erase Chara's influence. If Chara was in the same tier as Flowey/Asriel (if full power isn't scary enough) she would have been affected by the true reset, but she's not even affected by it.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Chara is outright stated to be lower than Omega Flowey

I'm actually curious. Where it is outright stated that Chara is lower than Photoshop Flowey?

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

I am still incredibly frustrated that the true reset (which is supposed to erase everything in that dimension, which is the game) cannot erase Chara's influence. If Chara was in the same tier as Flowey/Asriel (if full power isn't scary enough) she would have been affected by the true reset, but she's not even affected by it.

Neither Asriel nor Photoshop Flowey were present when Frisk tried his True Reset. Only vanilla Flowey. So it is speculative to say that the influence of both would be erase.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Flowey stated at the begening of Genocide that his plan would make him stronger than Chara and their stolen soul.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Flowey stated at the begening of Genocide that his plan would make him stronger than Chara and their stolen soul.

Flowey didn't do that statement with the knowledge of how strong Chara would ended up be. Granted, Chara never actually fight someone with the Six Souls. But she DID do something that only Asriel was capable. And that was erasing "The World" (and specifically the world) casually.

 

[Lina_Shields]

@Alice: If Asriel was not affected by the true reset, he would have recognized you from when you beat him previously (he could be acting, but I doubt it). Chara didn't need to fight the six souls anymore at the end; even without the six souls he was actually completely above the entire game at the end of the genocide route.

 

[Pikachu942]

Flowey was more than capable of destroying "The World" but he wanted to torture you and play around so he didn't.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

@Alice: If Asriel was not affected by the true reset, he would have recognized you from when you beat him previously (he could be acting, but I doubt it).

Asriel is Flowey. So if you erase Flowey's memories there is no way Asriel would know.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Neither Asriel nor Photoshop Flowey were present when Frisk tried his True Reset. Only vanilla Flowey. So it is speculative to say that the influence of both would be erase.

But you did fight him before however.

Also, the six souls came out of flowey and completely demolished him. If he was completely above Chara his plan wouldn't have failed.

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

There are 3 main players in this discussion: Photoshop Flowey, Asriel and Chara. We can get rid of Photoshop Flowey, as he's direcly inferior to Asriel, who is basically Photoshop + every monster's soul. Onto Asriel vs Chara.

It cannot be exactly said on who is more powerful than the other. See, when Chara gets your soul and recreates the world, it's more like he just resets, but this time around he owns your soul. The true reset probably isn't from Asriel, but Frisk, but Chara still owns the soul, shown in the soulless pacificist route.

However, there's this: Asriel has to go through the events of the pacifist route to become what he is at the end, which he loses shortly after. Chara, however is self-sustaining; he gives his power to countless Frisks, and eventually (if succussful) destroys those universes and gains Frisk's soul (bit like Ywatch from Bleach; I know spelling is wrong but I don't care).

It can be argued that Asriel is more powerful than Chara in a direct fight, but Chara would last much longer, and with those souls from multiple Frisks, Chara would probably win in power too.

Conclusion: Chara is indeed more powerful than Asriel.

For those who have read my theory on Chara being a fraud in Undertale Wikia, this would prove my theory wrong; with all those souls from various frisks, he would definitely have power enough to destroy the universe. But there's a intresting idea that arises from this: Chara only has power from universes in which Frisk kills; though the main power would come from universes in which full Genocide is accomplished. Chara only becomes a real player in which Genocide is achieved, without it, especially on Pacifist routes (not soulless), Chara has no power. Chara might just get a downgrade from this.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The true reset was done by the Player, not Frisk.

Chara gains power from Frisk killing, true, but they don't lose it with a reset. Chara can exist and attack without Frisk, and can even attack the player.

 

[Lina_Shields]

@Ghostly Owns: This is why he should be rated "2-B normally, High 2-A after possesion". This states that Chara is above everything AFTER he has taken your soul. Before the genocide route he should be the same as Frisk (it's arguable that it was Frisk fighting Undyne and not Chara).

@Saikou: it could also be argued that after the genocide route, Chara is the player, not Frisk after the genocide route since Frisk sold his soul at that point.

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

But yeah, the general conclusion is that Chara is the strongest character in Undertale. And I'd say Chara attacks the proxy/interface of us (players). We as outsiders can alter the game directly in ways even Chara can't, such as removing Chara's influence after completing Genocide and giving up frisk's soul. Hax for the win. I only got undertale just to fight sans; Chara is boring and just trying to guilt trip players, which I'm not interested in. Anyone know how to hack/swap a save file so I can just get to the part with sans instead of slaughtering everyone for 2-5 hours straight?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Frisk didn't sold his SOUL. Chara probably took it by force somewhere before the start of the game. Chara takes the PLAYER'S SOUL.

Also Post-Player-SOUL Chara is featless.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

>General Conclusion

No one said that tho, Annoying Dog is easily above that, the Game busting thing was done both by Asriel and Omega Flowey.

 

[Lina_Shields]

actually I'm sure Chara > annoying dog, even if by a little.

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

Well yeah, I forgot the Annoying Dog. So technically, the Annoying Dog is the strongest character in Undertale, because it is the avatar of Toby Fox, who has complete control of the game, more than Chara or Asriel.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I seriously think we are over estimate Chara here.

Game busting feat was done by both Flowey and Asriel, and the whole reasons Chara survive everything is because they aren't directly attacked and they are linked to the player.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Wouldn't busting the entire game completely obliterate Chara as well? If Flowey busted the game Chara should not exist at all. This would be if Chara same-dimensional as Flowey and the other characters (busting the entire game would basically mean busting the entire amount of multiverses in that game, thus 2-A for Flowey), however it can't even hit Chara when it's supposed to obliterate her (scaling from True Reset).

It would not matter if they aren't directly attacked or linked or not; If it's in the same dimension, a game destroying attack would bust everything regardless.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

I seriously think we are over estimate Chara here.
Game busting feat was done by both Flowey and Asriel, and the whole reasons Chara survive everything is because they aren't directly attacked and they are linked to the player.

Nobody is talking about the game busting. We are talking about the world busting feat.

Also. I'm honestly havinga bad time thinking that Chara REALLY took the player's soul and not Frisk's soul. Specially because i have my soul right here. (or that's what i think)

 

[Promestein]

Chara survives due to the nature of their immortality, which links them to the entity that is the player within the game's canon.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Frisk already had their SOUL taken, and Chara was literally talking to the Player. After the game crash Frisk is no more.

Dude Chara destroyed the game before. If they were unaffacted by that, they wouldn't be affected by Asriel doing it too.

Also pretty sure World = Game. I mean, there is Timeline, and then there is game. There isn't any level above it that is known.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Also pretty sure World = Game. I mean, there is Timeline, and then there is game. There isn't any level above it that is known.

That...Don't make a lot of sense. I mean. Asriel, without any "game busting" feat is destroying the world with his mere existence. Yet the game never crashes nor it corrupts.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Asriel was like the only time a "world" was mentioned. Also crashing isn't needed to destroy the game. Looks like Frisk's determination kept the player from being denied access to the game.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Asriel was like the only time a "world" was mentioned. Also crashing isn't needed to destroy the game. Looks like Frisk's determination kept the player from being denied access to the game.

The "world" is mentioned in two instances. At the end of the genocide route by Chara("Let us erase this pointless world") and against Asriel ("The world is ending")

Also. Frisk's determination has nothing to do with the player being denied access to the game. She only revives everytime she dies.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

So it DOES prove that both Chara and Asriel destroyed the same thing, right?

Yeah but in the case of Genocide or Neutral, Frisk didn't have enough determination to help against the world being crashed. They were completely overpowered.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Chara survives due to the nature of their immortality, which links them to the entity that is the player within the game's canon.

which would make Chara a same-dimensional entity as the player, which is +1 above the game.

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

First, it can at most be said tha Chara attacked our interface to the Undertale universe; that's as close as he gets to us, the plaeurs. Besides, Chara can't take our souls. He's in a game. Besides, I didn't do genocide route (yet, and would only do so up to sans for the fight vs sans), and even if I did...

Heh, Chara and Satan can't take what I don't have.

Also, souls irl (if they exist) are =/= to undertale souls.

With what Crazystarf said, it only proves Chara > Asriel, with timeline destroying feat. You can argue that Asriel recreated it, but that would mean that Asriel would be aware of Chara (assuming chara is constrained within it), but that's obviously not true, with no reaction on recreating the timeline. Thinking on true reset; if it was done by frisk, he'd have memories on what happened before, and sans would be able to tell (unless it extends to self). Therefore, true reset is done by player. With the soul exchange, what happens is that we trade Frisk's soul for another shot at the undertale universe, but in the end, he gets the final word on what we do (he has control of our ingame avatar, frisk).

What I say is that Chara takes Frisk's soul, but we retain control of Frisk until Chara decides to act. Remember, we only have control until pacifist route ends, then it shows what chara does afterwards (also Chara can't really comprehend social interactions; all he knows is how to grind and bargain like the devil). The ending kinda points to that fact as well, that once you trade in frisk's soul, it's a done deal. Until we decide to hax, anyways... =D

So once again, Chara > Asriel. And Annoying Dog is the true god of Undertale, the #1 in power. Pity he doesn't do more, he could prank Sans the prankmaster himself, a prank that trancends time and space.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Chara didn't directly attack us, just cut the contact with reality (game) from us. We are still alive and things. Also Chara only takes the soul of the player when the latter is willing.

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

Chara didn't directly attack us, just cut the contact with reality (game) from us. We are still alive and things. Also Chara only takes the soul of the player when the latter is willing.

First part: a shortened version of what I said. There is a interface that we used to interact with the Undertale universe, Chara just screwed with it, and will repair it with a payment of Frisk's soul. Second part: Whether he gets the soul is up to us. And when we don't want him to fk up our Pacifist ending, all we have to do is change or delete a folder in the game's data and his only hold over us players vanishes.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

lol? are people debating if Chara's final attack was against the player?

ehhh...No. That animation it's not meant to represent Chara killing the player. It's meant to represent Chara erasing the world.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Chara didn't directly attack us, just cut the contact with reality (game) from us. We are still alive and things. Also Chara only takes the soul of the player when the latter is willing.

Cutting the reality away from us is way above what Asriel has done in game at full power. Chara also has complete hostage over your soul, controlling whether you can play the game or not at that point.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The thing about deleting the files is complete non-canon. It is not intended to be that way.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

What? what are you talking about, people?

Chara didn't cut us from Undertale. Chara ERASED Undertale.