Regarding Chara's Tiering.

[Ghostly_Owns]

@Crazystarf Chara never even got close to touching the player's soul; the bargain is only over Frisk's soul. Look at the soulless pacifist ending; it shows that Frisk gets possessed by Chara, as we gave Chara Frisk's soul, and now he has absolute power over Frisk, overriding our (player's) power, as previously we had control of Frisk's soul but handed control to Chara. Of course, we can always remove Chara's influence whenever we want by tweaking a few things, but that's non-canon, as is any sort of modding not officially endorsed by the creator, whose word is god in those matters.

@Saikou The Lewd King Kinda obvious there, isn't it? The thing with Chara is meant to be canon, that actions have consequences, and that handing over a soul, even if it's someone else's, isn't a trivial matter.

@Alice Liddel in WikiLand That's also obvious, to an extent. Yeah, Chara erased the world/universe of Undertale. But Chara by no means has the power to erase Undertale the game from our computers. That would be a power of the program that makes Undertale the game, which is higher than Chara (IE, a self-erasing program that contains the universe of undertale and Chara). Chara has no idea that he's just a character created by Toby Fox, much less do anything about it, and that we could end his little reign WITH A CLICK OF THE MOUSE. *Cue the insane laugher of a megalomaniac* Back to the main point.

But where Asriel and Photoshop Flowey eventually returned things back to normal after being defeated, Chara's actions are permament by canon. Furthermore, Sans states that Chara has power on multiple timelines (with many timelines jumping left & right, etc.), adding more evidence to Chara's power, not to mention the nature of how Chara gains power (which is obviously Undertale only, but still more than Asriel). Therefore, by canon, Chara is more powerful than Asriel.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Stop saying Chara got Frisk's SOUL dammit. Frisk has already their SOUL stolen in start of Genocide. And Chara is talking directly to the Player, not Frisk when they say to give them your SOUL.

Chara is only permanant because they are linked to the Player, as they feed on their lust for killing. And Asriel willingly undo his stuff, and Flowey gets his power used against him.

Also, when Chara rebels against you, you can't fight back, unlike against Asriel and Flowey.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Problem here, though. Asriel didn't lose. He willingly gave up at the end of the True Pacifist Route. After Frisk reached into his SOUL, Asriel became reluctant to fight. Tortured by the kindness Frisk shows him he loses his will to fight. Also, Photoshop Flowey did the game busting feat too with 6 Human Souls. Asriel had the power of 6 Human SOULS and every monster SOUL in the Underground. Photoshop Flowey only lost because he lost control of the 6 Human SOULS. He was also able to completely ERASE Frisk's SAVE and make new ones just to kill Frisk over and over. Asriel is above even that. Which means he can do that to if he wanted. But he didn't because he said "I don't care about destroying this world anymore. I just want to reset everything." Asriel can easily do the same game busting feat but doesn't because he wants to "play" some more. Chara just straight up wants to Erase everything. Other than the Game busting feat, Chara has no real other feat than that. So, I think:

Asriel > Photoshop Flowey > Chara is still true.

Chara only repaired the game after destroying it and used the SOUL from the Player to possess Frisk in the new timeline. Also, Chara needs enough LOVE and EXP to fully manifest, which is why Chara can't appear in the Neutral Route even though you kill some monsters. Another reason why Chara isn't in the True Pacifist Route. No EXP or LOVE, no Chara.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Problem here, though. Asriel didn't lose. He willingly gave up at the end of the True Pacifist Route. After Frisk reached into his SOUL, Asriel became reluctant to fight. Tortured by the kindness Frisk shows him he loses his will to fight. Also, Photoshop Flowey did the game busting feat too with 6 Human Souls. Asriel had the power of 6 Human SOULS and every monster SOUL in the Underground. Photoshop Flowey only lost because he lost control of the 6 Human SOULS. He was also able to completely ERASE Frisk's SAVE and make new ones just to kill Frisk over and over. Asriel is above even that. Which means he can do that to if he wanted. But he didn't because he said "I don't care about destroying this world anymore. I just want to reset everything." Asriel can easily do the same game busting feat but doesn't because he wants to "play" some more. Chara just straight up wants to Erase everything. Other than the Game busting feat, Chara has no real other feat than that. So, I think:

Again. Omega Flowey game busting feat isn't the same as Asriel's world erasing feat. You could say that he corrupted reality and break it. But erased it? Only two people did that in-screen. Chara and Asriel.

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

Stop saying Chara got Frisk's SOUL dammit. Frisk has already their SOUL stolen in start of Genocide. And Chara is talking directly to the Player, not Frisk when they say to give them your SOUL.
Chara is only permanant because they are linked to the Player, as they feed on their lust for killing. And Asriel willingly undo his stuff, and Flowey gets his power used against him.

Also, when Chara rebels against you, you can't fight back, unlike against Asriel and Flowey.

Just took a look after Genocide. You're partially right. Yeah, Chara asks for the player's soul and not Frisk's. But Frisk didn't get his soul stolen at the beginning, it got corrupted more through the genocide playthrough, until the end, where Frisk is just a puppet of Chara's.

Second part is true; Frisk is just a blank slate, Chara feeds off the player.

Third part is for canon purposes true; once you hand over your 'soul', you can't undo by canon.

Though technically, you can just reset before you choose to destroy the world/or not; Chara is thereby erased. Now that I give it some thought; 'your SOUL' is pretty much the equivalent of Frisk's, as you control Frisk. Chara gets you, and by extension, Frisk. That's the entire point of souless pacifist ending; Chara tricks you into freeing him from the barrier.

Though by your soul, Chara actually means your proxy's ingame soul (ie, your control over the game). Your personal, real life soul (if souls / your soul exists) stays intact, for all those kids who are worried.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well yeah it's clear Chara doesn't attack you in Real Life but Chara doesn't take Frisk's SOUL at the end of Genocide.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Again. Omega Flowey game busting feat isn't the same as Asriel's world erasing feat. You could say that he corrupted reality and break it. But erased it? Only two people did that in-screen. Chara and Asriel.

Omega Flowey did this effortlessly, as well as he was playing around the entire battle. Both Flowey and Asriel aren't trying to destroy everything like Chara, they want to keep playing the game with Frisk for all eternity. Chara only wanted to destroy everything and didn't play around.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Well yeah it's clear Chara doesn't attack you in Real Life but Chara doesn't take Frisk's SOUL at the end of Genocide.

Didn't Flowey straight up say Chara hijacked Frisk's SOUL at the beginning?

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

So let's get back to the main question. Like I said before, Omega Flowey is below Asriel, for reasons I state before.

So, who's more powerful: Asriel, or Chara?

I personally believe 2 things: if it's by player only, usually Asriel; with a True Pacifist ending, Chara has no effective power, with nothing to feed on. If it's by the entire Undertale multiverse, then it's Chara hands down; 6 human souls and a bunch of monster souls is nothing to Chara's implied power in that case (basically, Chara is being backed with a large or infinte amount of universes).

 

[Lina_Shields]

The fact that Asriel even lost the battle speaks volumes about his ability being below Chara after genocide route, even at full power.

Flowey destroyed a save (which is still a part of the game that does no permanent damage), while Asriel is infinitely above this. However the true reset still affected both Asriel/Flowey to the point where he couldn't even remember who you were the first time you saw him.

Basically if he/she can't tank a true reset, he/she <<< Chara (Sans isn't relevant at this point). There is basically no way to not get affected by the true reset unless he/she is a step above that game's dimension. Keep in mind this is AFTER the genocide route, not before.

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

Well yeah it's clear Chara doesn't attack you in Real Life but Chara doesn't take Frisk's SOUL at the end of Genocide.

Didn't Flowey straight up say Chara hijacked Frisk's SOUL at the beginning?

Flowey mistakes Frisk for Chara due to a similar nature. But remember, the player may abort the Genocide route at any time; Chara has a hold on Frisk's soul, but that may be removed: If even 1 monster isn't killed, Chara cannot take full possession of Frisk.

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

The fact that Asriel even lost the battle speaks volumes about his ability being below Chara after genocide route, even at full power.
Flowey destroyed a save (which is still a part of the game that does no permanent damage), while Asriel is infinitely above this. However the true reset still affected both Asriel/Flowey to the point where he couldn't even remember who you were the first time you saw him.

Basically if he/she can't tank a true reset, he/she <<< Chara. Keep in mind this is AFTER the genocide route, not before.

Huh, had this conclusion at the beginning, but forgot about it. Also, I proved this by another means: Asriel is powered by 6 human souls + a lot of monster souls.

Chara, on the other hand, is backed by the player's soul, countless Frisk souls (from all those timeline), and the feelings of grinding (aka every timeline in which Frisk kills, though power varies with # of monsters killed). All of this amounts to much more than Asriel; the player's soul has control over frisk, which says a lot. You can technically interpret this as the player being a mini version of Asriel, but with just one (Frisk's) soul; this is subverted at the end of Genocide, in which Chara takes control instead.

But once again, assuming this is by a player basis of power, Chara can be from infinitely stronger than Asriel (who is static) to having no power, if the player never had Frisk kill anyone; Chara would therefore have nothing to feed on and therefore have no power.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Keep in mind that for this discussion, any version of Chara before the genocide route would be in the same level as Frisk is. It is after you do the genocide route that things go wonky.

Anyways from what I read about the true reset, absolutely nothing should be unaffected by it provided they are in the game's dimension (meaning timelines and multiverses are fair game).

Edit: If anyone here is knowledgeble about higher dimensions, it would be a great help. Personally, being able to permanently affect the save files in your PC (which would transcend time in the Undertale verse which is 4-D) >>> anything Asriel could do.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Again. Omega Flowey game busting feat isn't the same as Asriel's world erasing feat. You could say that he corrupted reality and break it. But erased it? Only two people did that in-screen. Chara and Asriel.

Omega Flowey did this effortlessly, as well as he was playing around the entire battle. Both Flowey and Asriel aren't trying to destroy everything like Chara, they want to keep playing the game with Frisk for all eternity. Chara only wanted to destroy everything and didn't play around.

He didn't. Omega Flowey never destroyed the world. It is never described. The only time this happens is, again. Against Asriel and at the end of geno run. Also. Photoshop Flowey, unlike Asriel, wasn't destroying the world with his mere presence.

 

[Lina_Shields]

The thing about deleting the files is complete non-canon. It is not intended to be that way.

Except that Chara added the files in the first place.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

A few things.

1. Flowey outright mentions his plan to steal the human souls being able to make him stronger than Chara. While Chara was obviously not at full power at this point, this was at the very beginning of the game, and thus would seem odd to mention if Flowey had no idea how powerful they truly were.

2. While Flowey didn't know their intention, I'm fairly certain he knew what Chara was capable of. For a brief period of time, they were literally the same person.

3. Both Omega Flowey and Asriel are also capable of overpowering the player. Omega Flowey does this as soon as he forms, along with every other time he kills you. While Asriel never directly does this, it is implied that had Frisk been killed (and not refused to die), he would have completely wiped your save data back to absolutely nothing.

4. The only reason Chara can make themself permanent is due to you/Frisk willingly giving up your SOUL, a situation they force you into.

5. Despite all this, Chara's power does indeed appear to be variable, and I would not be opposed to altering their tier to "Likely 2-B, probably/potentially higher".

Thoughts?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The fact that Asriel even lost the battle speaks volumes about his ability being below Chara after genocide route, even at full power.

By pretty much no definition of the word did Asriel lose his fight with Frisk. He willingly stopped killing them before they were completely erased due to his own guilt.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

A few things.
1. Flowey outright mentions his plan to steal the human souls being able to make him stronger than Chara. While Chara was obviously not at full power at this point, this was at the very beginning of the game, and thus would seem odd to mention if Flowey had no idea how powerful they truly were.

2. While Flowey didn't know their intention, I'm fairly certain he knew what Chara was capable of. For a brief period of time, they were literally the same person.

I specifically want to debate this. But before. I want to make an advise and is that i can be somehow bias towards Chara. But i think this is worth debate for and, well, that's what we do here, right? debate. After all.

Let's start with this. Yes. Flowey mentions that his plan of steal the human souls would make him stronger than Chara. Yes, he did know Chara fairly well and i'm not saying that Flowey was doing a hyperbole. But let's be real. Flowey didn't have a way to know how strong Chara ended up be. So we need to take that statement carefuly. And this has nothing to do with Flowey knowing Chara, this has to do with powerlevels. And again, Flowey didn't have a way to know how much power Chara would gain at the end of genocide run. This is also helped with the fact that she is the only one apart from Asriel who did the "world" busting in-screen. As i said before. Even if Flowey corrupted reality or crashed the game this is never explicit stated as destroying the "world" unlike the two other instances against Chara and Asriel.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I specifically want to debate this. But before. I want to make an advise and is that i can be somehow bias towards Chara. But i think this is worth debate for and, well, that's what we do here, right? debate. After all.

Let's start with this. Yes. Flowey mentions that his plan of steal the human souls would make him stronger than Chara. Yes, he did know Chara fairly well and i'm not saying that Flowey was doing a hyperbole. But let's be real. Flowey didn't have a way to know how strong Chara ended up be. So we need to take that statement carefuly. And this has nothing to do with Flowey knowing Chara, this has to do with powerlevels. And again, Flowey didn't have a way to know how much power Chara would gain at the end of genocide run. This is also helped with the fact that she is the only one apart from Asriel who did the "world" busting in-screen. As i said before. Even if Flowey corrupted reality or crashed the game this is never explicit stated as destroying the "world" unlike the two other instances against Chara and Asriel.

Flowey has killed everyone in the Underground many, many times in the past. I'm sure he had at least some grasp on just how much Lv Chara could gain. After all, he was never afraid of their power, in the slightest. He was only afraid once he realized they were turning on him.

Yes, Flowey doesn't do this, but that's because he's a sadistic individual and likes watching you squirm. He forcefully boots you from the game at least once (more, should you die), and only even allows you to fight because he wants to see the look on your face when you realize you can't even harm him. His downfall has little to do with you, and everything to do with the unexpected event of the SOULs leaving his body.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

I specifically want to debate this. But before. I want to make an advise and is that i can be somehow bias towards Chara. But i think this is worth debate for and, well, that's what we do here, right? debate. After all.

Let's start with this. Yes. Flowey mentions that his plan of steal the human souls would make him stronger than Chara. Yes, he did know Chara fairly well and i'm not saying that Flowey was doing a hyperbole. But let's be real. Flowey didn't have a way to know how strong Chara ended up be. So we need to take that statement carefuly. And this has nothing to do with Flowey knowing Chara, this has to do with powerlevels. And again, Flowey didn't have a way to know how much power Chara would gain at the end of genocide run. This is also helped with the fact that she is the only one apart from Asriel who did the "world" busting in-screen. As i said before. Even if Flowey corrupted reality or crashed the game this is never explicit stated as destroying the "world" unlike the two other instances against Chara and Asriel.

Flowey has killed everyone in the Underground many, many times in the past. I'm sure he had at least some grasp on just how much Lv Chara could gain. After all, he was never afraid of their power, in the slightest. He was only afraid once he realized they were turning on him.
Yes, Flowey doesn't do this, but that's because he's a sadistic individual and likes watching you squirm. He forcefully boots you from the game at least once (more, should you die), and only even allows you to fight because he wants to see the look on your face when you realize you can't even harm him. His downfall has little to do with you, and everything to do with the unexpected event of the SOULs leaving his body.

Yes. But Flowey is a souless being. Therefore he lacks of a SOUL to know how it strenghts towards LOVE and Determination(Which is, after all. The power of a SOUL). He probably had somewhat an idea of how powerful Chara would ended up be and that's where get the impression of the Six Soul being enough to overpower Chara. But still, that doesn't necesseraly mean it's true. Specially because he said that early in the game, Flowey didn't even try to taunt you about how he will kill you once he get the souls (Which would be more like him) And as you said, Flowey was never afraid of her power not because he think it was too much, but because it turned out against him.

And i didn't contradict the fact that Flowey was toying. This is true, Flowey was toying all the fight. But still, that doesn't change the fact that both Asriel and Chara are the only ones who perfomed the "world" busting feat in-screen. You can even argue that Chara did it casually. Of course you can also say that Flowey "should" be able to do it to. But that would lead us to a cyclic argument that won't end until we resolve the one above.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes. But Flowey is a souless being. Therefore he lacks of a SOUL to know how it strenghts towards LOVE and Determination(Which is, after all. The power of a SOUL). He probably had somewhat an idea of how powerful Chara would ended up be and that's where get the impression of the Six Soul being enough to overpower Chara. But still, that doesn't necesseraly mean it's true. Specially because he said that early in the game, Flowey didn't even try to taunt you about how he will kill you once he get the souls (Which would be more like him) And as you said, Flowey was never afraid of her power not because he think it was too much, but because it turned out against him.

And i didn't contradict the fact that Flowey was toying. This is true, Flowey was toying all the fight. But still, that doesn't change the fact that both Asriel and Chara are the only ones who perfomed the "world" busting feat in-screen. You can even argue that Chara did it casually. Of course you can also say that Flowey "should" be able to do it to. But that would get us to a cyclic argument that won't end until we resolve the one above.

Actually, remember that the whole reason Flowey exists is because he was injected with massive Determination. He also definitely gains LOVE from killing, otherwise not only would he be unfamiliar with how it works, but he wouldn't have been able to kill everyone in the Underground. When you start a game, he goes back to 0 Lv, and gets bodied by a casual attack from Toriel.

Yes, but there's reason for Flowey to be above Chara. Not only did he state that's what would happen, but he has six souls. Chara has one.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Yes. But Flowey is a souless being. Therefore he lacks of a SOUL to know how it strenghts towards LOVE and Determination(Which is, after all. The power of a SOUL). He probably had somewhat an idea of how powerful Chara would ended up be and that's where get the impression of the Six Soul being enough to overpower Chara. But still, that doesn't necesseraly mean it's true. Specially because he said that early in the game, Flowey didn't even try to taunt you about how he will kill you once he get the souls (Which would be more like him) And as you said, Flowey was never afraid of her power not because he think it was too much, but because it turned out against him.

And i didn't contradict the fact that Flowey was toying. This is true, Flowey was toying all the fight. But still, that doesn't change the fact that both Asriel and Chara are the only ones who perfomed the "world" busting feat in-screen. You can even argue that Chara did it casually. Of course you can also say that Flowey "should" be able to do it to. But that would get us to a cyclic argument that won't end until we resolve the one above.

Actually, remember that the whole reason Flowey exists is because he was injected with massive Determination. He also definitely gains LOVE from killing, otherwise not only would he be unfamiliar with how it works, but he wouldn't have been able to kill everyone in the Underground. When you start a game, he goes back to 0 Lv, and gets bodied by a casual attack from Toriel.
Yes, but there's reason for Flowey to be above Chara. Not only did he state that's what would happen, but he has six souls. Chara has one.

You are not wrong. Flowey is a souless being that has been forced the will to live in him. I was not saying that concepts like LOVE and Determination are strange or non-existent for him. I was saying that, since he is a being without a real soul, but a will to live that has been forced to him maybe concepts that are linked to the SOUL are not exactly accurate for him. Which would explain why his calculations would ended up being so wrong. He don't have a SOUL, so even if he gets strenghts from LOVE and has Determination he can't really know how it would act with a being with an actual SOUL that strenghts from both.

-This is kinda of a theory. So you don't have to debunk it because it's not really confirmed. But i've always had this idea that, while Frisk can acquire more Determination from her sheer will Flowey will always be static. Since he was injected, he doesn't have a Soul that can produce Determination.- Which lead us to the second point:

The fact that Flowey has six souls doesn't invalid what i'm trying to say. Frisk, with one soul, was able to make somewhat a stand against Asriel. Granted, it was with a fraction of his power so isn't really accurate to say that Frisk=Asriel. But even then. He had enough Determination to stop Asriel from resetting the timeline and even when he couldn't even move against him he still could endure his attack enough time. Let's not say that Frisk only has Determination (a LOT) but Chara has both Determination and LOVE. Which would explain why she is so powerful.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Actually, after the genocide ending, he should have an infinite amount of souls from Frisk from different universes.

Also explains why Chara can tank a true reset while Flowey can't.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

So your asking for 2-A or High 2-A Chara? @Crazystarf

 

[Promestein]

Actually, after the genocide ending, he should have an infinite amount of souls from Frisk from different universes.

Also explains why Chara can tank a true reset while Flowey can't.

Of course Base Flowey doesn't tank a true reset.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Also explains why Chara can tank a true reset while Flowey can't.

Again. This argument is not really that solid. Vanilla Flowey couldn't resist a True Reset. But we don't know how Photoshop Flowey (Much less Asriel) will react to a True Reset. Or if it would be even possible to perform a True Reset with those two in existence. So this is basically a highly especulative argument.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Crazysarf

Too much speculation to confirm anything, on that.

@Alice

Yes, it is possible that Flowey's Determination is static (albeit absolutely massive, as he had more than the six humans before Frisk), but that doesn't stop him from gaining LOVE. In fact, judging by most of his dialogue, he seems to know more about it than almost anybody.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

@Crazysarf
Too much speculation to confirm anything, on that.

@Alice

Yes, it is possible that Flowey's Determination is static (albeit absolutely massive, as he had more than the six humans before Frisk), but that doesn't stop him from gaining LOVE. In fact, judging by most of his dialogue, he seems to know more about it than almost anybody.

Far as i know, or at least from what i understeand from the True Lab. Flowey's existence was after the six humans fall to the underground, but before Frisk fall in. Therefore, since the six humans were long dead there wasn't really anyone with determination that could override Flowey's. But maybe i'm getting it wrong.

With this said, and as i stated before. I'm not saying that LOVE is non-existence for Flowey. I'm just saying that since he doesn't have a SOUL. He really doesn't have an accurate way to know how much power a being with an actual SOUL will gain from both a non-static supply of Determination and LOVE accumulated from the slaughter of the entire underground. So his word shouldn't be absolute on the matter.

Basically, he is not really lying or doing a hyperbole. But he's not, by any means. Word of God and it shouldn't instantly disregard the possibility of Chara being stronger than he thought.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Far as i know, or at least from what i understeand from the True Lab. Flowey's existence was after the six humans fall to the underground, but before Frisk fall in. Therefore, since the six humans were long dead there wasn't really anyone with determination that could override Flowey's. But maybe i'm getting it wrong.

With this said, and as i stated before. I'm not saying that LOVE is non-existence for Flowey. I'm just saying that since he doesn't have a SOUL. He really doesn't have an accurate way to know how much power a being with an actual SOUL will gain from both a non-static supply of Determination and LOVE accumulated from the slaughter of the entire underground. So his word shouldn't be absolute on the matter.

Basically, he is not really lying or doing a hyperbole. But he's not, by any means. Word of God and it shouldn't instantly disregard the possibility of Chara being stronger than he thought.

I don't know if that's ever mentioned. Plus, if that's the case, Flowey would know a lot about human SOULs for someone who had never actually encountered a human in his new life.

He's certainly not WoG, but Flowey has proven to be incredibly well versed on the subject, and him making a miscalculation on that level seems off. In fact, the only times he ever really made miscalculations, they were regarding Chara's bond with him and the SOULs ability to fight back if beckoned by someone with enough willpower and heart.

 

[Lina_Shields]

So your asking for 2-A or High 2-A Chara? @Crazystarf

"2-B, likely High 2-A after possession".

Basically, my main reason for this upgrade would be -permanently hacking the entire data of the game so that you have to manually go outside out of the game to remove the file from your system (higher-dimensional interaction) -omnipresence (which God Flowey/Asriel doesn't even have)

Now the first point wouldn't really be relevant if Chara did not add that file to your system drive. No other character in the game is even hinted to be able to do something like this (save data corruption can't even compare to this).

To rival what Chara did at the end of the genocide route would mean that Asriel would have to forcibly access your undertale data or would have to break the game so bad you would have to reinstall it just to play again. I am not actually sure if Asriel full power is able to do that. Even if Asriel says he can do something like that, it doesn't hold much weight if he didn't do it in the first place. By pure feats alone Chara (after possession) > Asriel

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Far as i know, or at least from what i understeand from the True Lab. Flowey's existence was after the six humans fall to the underground, but before Frisk fall in. Therefore, since the six humans were long dead there wasn't really anyone with determination that could override Flowey's. But maybe i'm getting it wrong.

With this said, and as i stated before. I'm not saying that LOVE is non-existence for Flowey. I'm just saying that since he doesn't have a SOUL. He really doesn't have an accurate way to know how much power a being with an actual SOUL will gain from both a non-static supply of Determination and LOVE accumulated from the slaughter of the entire underground. So his word shouldn't be absolute on the matter.

Basically, he is not really lying or doing a hyperbole. But he's not, by any means. Word of God and it shouldn't instantly disregard the possibility of Chara being stronger than he thought.

I don't know if that's ever mentioned. Plus, if that's the case, Flowey would know a lot about human SOULs for someone who had never actually encountered a human in his new life.
He's certainly not WoG, but Flowey has proven to be incredibly well versed on the subject, and him making a miscalculation on that level seems off. In fact, the only times he ever really made miscalculations, they were regarding Chara's bond with him and the SOULs ability to fight back if beckoned by someone with enough willpower and heart.

It is obvious that Flowey existence should be, at the very least. After a couple of humans fell in the underground. But even then. I don't really think it would make such a big deal of Frisk arriving in the Underground. Although there is the possibility of the other humans simply were incapable of override Flowey's determination. But honestly. That seems unlikely at least for me.

That's what i'm trying to get. Flowey, even if he is well versed and don't talk without knowing. Isn't incapable of doing miscalculation. He already did one with Chara, and couldn't even expect the reaction of the Souls (Which also adds more to the first point. If Flowey knew some of those souls how he didn't expect that?) So it's not impossible for him to be wrong about Chara being completly incapable of surpass him. Specially because, again, he already misjudged Chara.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It is obvious that Flowey existence should be, at the very least. After a couple of humans fell in the underground. But even then. I don't really think it would make such a big deal of Frisk arriving in the Underground. Although there is the possibility of the other humans simply were incapable of override Flowey's determination. But honestly. That seems unlikely at least for me.

That's what i'm trying to get. Flowey, even if he is well versed and don't talk without knowing. Isn't incapable of doing miscalculation. He already did one with Chara, and couldn't even expect the reaction of the Souls (Which also adds more to the first point. If Flowey knew some of those souls how he didn't expect that?) So it's not impossible for him to be wrong about Chara being completly incapable of surpass him. Specially because, again, he already misjudged Chara.

A couple, yes. Doubtfully after all of them. You also have to remember that Flowey's Determination is considerably high, and Frisk is a very special human. It's unlikely anyone beforehand could have overwritten his control.

He misjudged Chara's intentions, not Chara themself. He also mentioned that Frisk and Chara were the two individuals he could never predict. This does not mean he could not predict the power of the human SOUL, which he was well acquainted with; simply that he was unable to judge the course of action the two would take, such as Frisk focusing on calling for help instead of directly fighting back.

 

[Sally_Raven]

i am very new here, so sorry if i am unused to the way this wiki works and talk nonsense ans a result. regardless of power relation between asriel and chara, chara doessurvive a true reset that should raise their dimensional level. even if asriel really is more powerful than than them, shouldn't chara and be upgraded regardless of that fact?

i agree that flowey has partial knowledge of the potential of determination and SOUL, because even if he lacks both, living chara had them. however, flowey does not have any knowledge of the potential of abstract chara. he saw chara as a being similar to him with the addition of one SOUL, which is not what chara ended up becoming. he also had no way of knowing about the absurd streangh of frisks specific SOUL, and was surprised by it. thus, in the begining of genocide, it his prediction should be taken with a grain of salt, and would only rever to chara while bound to a physical body anyway.

it is also important that chara does have connection to aspects of the player, as was noted by others, and thus has clear no upper limit to their potential inside the game. from that moment, charas power would extend to the point where they can extract it from the players dimention, which is beyond the games dimention.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Even of the upgrade is legit, wouldn't Chara only be 2-A, not High 2-A? Being infinitely stronger than Asriel is only 2-A in the Tiering System unless Chara can affect/destroy 5-D space time.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Even of the upgrade is legit, wouldn't Chara only be 2-A, not High 2-A? Being infinitely stronger than Asriel is only 2-A in the Tiering System unless Chara can affect/destroy 5-D space time.

Wouldn't Chara's "interaction" with your PC be 5-Dimensional anyways since accessing your PC should be beyond time in that universe?

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Chara's talking to you, not crashing/destroying your PC. Everything they do only affects the game. Even taking the player's SOUL doesn't do anything other than reset the game. Also, interacting with the player doesn't seem to be a good space time feat, unless She-Hulk and Deadpool are now 5-D for talking to you in the comics.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Even if Chara didn't actually affect my PC, Chara should still be able to exist be at any point in any time as well as any number of possible choices (as well as the probability of that happening, if you believe the Player is Chara at that point) that you could have made in that game. This is because Chara's speed is

Omnipresent.

Otherwise, his speed would be "immesurable" because he would not be everywhere and anywhere at once.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

Aren't there multiple characters here that are Omnipresent or not and are either not 2-A or WAY above it?

Anti-Spiral

Chaos King

Pre-Recton Beyonder

Also, with that argument, wouldn't Asriel be High 2-A too considering he's Omnipresent too?

 

[Lina_Shields]

Aren't there multiple characters here that are Omnipresent or not and are either not 2-A or WAY above it?

Anti-Spiral (only in their own timeline)

Chaos King (tier 1)

Pre-Recton Beyonder (tier 1)

Also, with that argument, wouldn't Asriel be High 2-A too considering he's Omnipresent too?

Asriel being omnipresent is actually questionable. Chara however, after much discussion, is actually proven to be omnipresent after the genocide route. Also all the characters that you posted had enormous control over their universe/multiverse. The difference between the Anti-Spiral and Chara is that the Anti-Spiral is only omnipresent in their own timeline/realm while Chara is omnipresent in infinite timelines at the same time.

Also, Chara destroyed way more than a timeline, which is way more than the antispiral can hope for.

 

[MarvelFanatic119]

But they're still not Omnipresent. Both Beyonder and Chaos King are still Tier 1 and are only Immeasurable (which regardless both are still hilariously above Tier 2). Chara being able to affect other Frisks in different timelines still won't warrant High 2-A unless, again, it explictly shows the effect/destruction of the 5-D space and time. And nowhere has deleting your game files or affecting them will make that 5-D. Or else Omega Flowey would be bumped back to High 2-A as well as Asriel (you can be much stronger than a High 2-A, and still be High 2-A). There are also characters like YHVH from SMT who's Omnipresent, but only at least 2-A.

Being able to destory an infinite number of timelines (if it's all 4-D) is still only 2-A. If breaking the game or interacting with you, the player, counts as 5-D, would Psycho Mantis from MG be 5-D considering he can disable your controller and directly read your game card?