Recent changes to Ayanokouji's profile

[Inferno3054]

Recently, there were two content revision threads that were made regarding some feats that were brought out for the Classroom of the Elite verse, which were made to downgrade those feats.

The one I'd like to talk about in particular regards Koenji's cliff feat, which will be linked here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...enji_jumps_a_mountain:_Classroom_of_the_Elite

The forum post that held the discussion for this feat is also here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/youko...hugi-no-kyoushitsu-e-downgrade-thread.168937/


In the second post, the two things that were called upon to be revised were:

1. Downgrades to Ayanokoji and Koenji's AP.
2. The feat being downgraded to a "Possibly Wall-Level" rating for their respective Durability only.

This is the argument that was used to downgrade Ayanokoji Kiyotaka's AP rating:

1. This scales to Kouenji's and Ayanokouji's attack potency. In the thread for this upgrade there wasn't any reasoning for this to scale to their attack potency. Ayanokouji nor Kouenji have ever fought or hurt each other. Which is why the feat should be limited to durability.

This is my main issue with the post, as this argument allowed Vzearr to make changes to Ayanokoji's AP rating despite it not being the main focal point of the debate between him and RoggerReggor. What the two discussed was the validity of the durability feat itself, not it's relation to the AP scaling of the characters.

I do not have an problem with the feat being reduced to a "Possibly" rating because it was generally agreed upon that Vzearr won that aspect of the debate. However, I do have an issue with the feat only applying to the Ayanokoji's Durability, with everything else being downgraded.

As I showed above, the argument that was made for this feat to not apply to each character's AP is that the two never confronted each other, which is false.

In Y2V3, we witness an instance where Ayanokoji and Koenji meet for one of the island exam's tests. This specific test is a tug of war, and these two are the only male competitors, meaning they're forced to face off against one another.

In this test, we see that Ayanokoji and Koenji seem to be relative in arm strength, according to Ayanokoji's direct statement in his monologue:

It’s not like I was going easy on him, not by any means. However, the force he was exerting on the rope was so great that it drew the center flag back to its place in between us, returning the match to a state of equilibrium.
From this, it seemed that Kōenji and I were just about evenly matched when it came to arm strength.

RoggerReggor also brought this up in his initial comment, but no further discussion was made for this, and the topic moved over to the tree discussion, which I have no input for.


Another significant moment is when Ayanokoji fought both Shiba and Tsukishiro, two of the best combatants in the verse. During this fight, Ayanokoji makes this statement:

I tried to focus my attention on dealing with and damaging Shiba, who was still behind me, but then something unexpected happened. I felt a cold sensation on the nape of my neck, inevitably forcing me to bring my counterattack to a halt. I took evasive action once again for what felt like the millionth time and moved away from Tsukishiro. Moments after I moved, Shiba’s arm swung by me. The sound of his fist flying through the air rang in my ears.
If I had carelessly gone through with trying to trade blows with Shiba, I might have been stopped at once. Shiba’s attack just then had most definitely boasted the same level of power as my own.

In this instance, Ayanokoji is tricked by Tsukishiro and Shiba due to them holding back their abilities until a moment of surprise. Ayanokoji notes after this that if he remained careless in this moment, he would have been immediately "stopped", or defeated. Ayanokoji also states that Shiba's attacking power here was relative to his own.

This means that Ayanokoji's AP should be > his own Durability, and according to the original post and the general scaling of the verse on their respective profiles, Ayanokoji scales to Koenji in terms of Durability.

This would mean that Ayanokoji possesses the necessary AP to bypass Koenji's Durability. Furthermore, Koenji's similar level of arm strength to Ayanokoji suggests he may have a similar level of AP as well, meaning he'd be able to bypass his own Durability.



Conclusion and Content Revision Request:
—
Ayanokoji and Koenji's AP rating should be reverted back to Wall-Level, but with the limitation of "Possibly" being added to it like Ayanokoji's Durability currently has written for it.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

MY MAN INFERNO COOKS!
AGREE WITH THE THREAD

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Wait, his ap should still be equal to his durability, other than that this is good.

 

[Dereck03]

As per our discussion rules I shall close this in request.

Edit. It seems like it was an error of the person who requested the closure, I've reopened this.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

As per our discussion rules I shall close this in request.

Edit. It seems like it was an error of the person who requested the closure, I've reopened this.

Yeah this thread is about Koenji's durability feat scaling to Koenji and Ayanokoji's AP, which the other thread isn't about.

Anyways Mr. Dereck you're gonna check the thread right?

 

[Vzearr]

Snip

1. Relative lifting strength and relative ap don't coincide.
2. I suppose this is a good time to discuss this, but what makes Ayanokouji's durability = to Kouenji's durability?

This means that Ayanokoji's AP should be > his own Durability, and according to the original post and the general scaling of the verse on their respective profiles, Ayanokoji scales to Koenji in terms of Durability..

Having an AP above your own durability isn't possible when you're a strike based fighter. This sort of proves the inconsistency in Ayanokouji's narration during this scene.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I and Vzearr did the debate about the Y2V3 feat, I remember speaking about it in the near start of the thread.

Either way, it is impossible to have an AP above your durability, the scene is not so debatable. "I might have been stopped at once." could basically mean that one strike would have got him off guard, and the consecutive strikes would have finished him, also, I believe your basic argument is that one strike from Shiba would have defeated him? If that is, then the thing is that Ayanokouji still implied that he would have been in the fight even after Shiba's attacks.

He mentioned that if he had been attacked by Shiba (which presumably proposed in the OP would have stopped him), he would have been left completely defenseless, which is somehow not implying that Shiba's strike would have stopped him at "once". I know "once" can be a confusing word considering how that can also be interpreted as Shiba taking down Ayanokouji (I have Shiba being equal to Ayanokouji as a false statement and Shiba only being equal to the Ayanokouji who's holding back), but "once" can also be interpreted as a short moment. For us, that short moment can be very small, but for subsonic characters who all scale massively above 70 m/s, that very small moment is a life-or-death moment.

Your AP cannot be greater than your durability if your attacks are through physical striking power, it would be basically like you throwing a punch and you yourself cannot take your own force, like a Baki character whose arm breaks when they throw a force.

 

[MCH2]

Even though I believe Ayanokoji and Kouinji are likely wall level, I disagree with placing them there due to the current state of the AP feats on the verse page.

Kouinji’s feat is unquestionably durability. it’s not AP.

On Koji’s durability being > Koji AP. Hard disagree, as Tsukishiro took multiple strikes to go down.

Currently, the 3 AP feats are 4Kj Ibuki, 1.2 Mj Ichika and 2.1 Mj something Sudo.

The inconsistency needs to be addressed imo.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

The first AP feat introduced in the series was Sudou's 2 MJ feat which happens in Year 1 Volume 2

 

[DonkeySlayer06]

In the conversation between Ayanokoji and Koenji in Y2V11, doesn't it make sense to equalize their AP and durability? Because according to Ayanokoji, he implies that in a one-on-one fight with Koenji, both of them will remain equal. So both of them should be able to overcome the other person's durability

 

[Vzearr]

In the conversation between Ayanokoji and Koenji in Y2V11, doesn't it make sense to equalize their AP and durability? Because according to Ayanokoji, he implies that in a one-on-one fight with Koenji, both of them will remain equal. So both of them should be able to overcome the other person's durability

Remaining equal doesn't necessarily mean Ayanokouji can damage him. If I remember correctly, Ayanokouji wasn't able to damage Albert until he hit him in the solar plexus?

 

[DonkeySlayer06]

Remaining equal doesn't necessarily mean Ayanokouji can damage him. If I remember correctly, Ayanokouji wasn't able to damage Albert until he hit him in the solar plexus?

I don't agree. Ayanokoji didn't give his all during the fight, he said so himself. Secondly, he overcame this again in the last volume, when Hosen punched Albert, he stated that Hosen was very strong and his hand tingled and then he equated Hosen and Ayanokoji. Then Ryuen said they were not equal. Albert changed his mind and said that Ayanokoji was stronger. What is stated here is that in pure strength and pure strength Ayanokoji > Hosen.
We know that Hosen is able to harm Albert and this puts him above Albert.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Even though I believe Ayanokoji and Kouinji are likely wall level, I disagree with placing them there due to the current state of the AP feats on the verse page.

Kouinji’s feat is unquestionably durability. it’s not AP.

On Koji’s durability being > Koji AP. Hard disagree, as Tsukishiro took multiple strikes to go down.

Currently, the 3 AP feats are 4Kj Ibuki, 1.2 Mj Ichika and 2.1 Mj something Sudo.

The inconsistency needs to be addressed imo.

Ibuki's feat is probably fine.

A mod disagreed with the Ichika 1.2mj feat because it doesn't fulfill the required criteria, specifically that the AP result derived from the KE is inconsistent with the destruction.

The feat performed by sudo is a mistranslation, in the raw japanese text, it is only stated that sudo kicked the desk and nothing else, it was already talked about here when another user calculated it

 

[RoggerReggor]

A mod disagreed with the Ichika 1.2mj feat because it doesn't fulfill the required criteria, specifically that the AP result derived from the KE is inconsistent with the destruction.

It's being debated currently, but again, COTE is a novel, so I don't really go with the "it isn't mentioned so it mustn't have happened" thing (and Qawsed also mentioned how it doesn't happen to be in line with inconsistencies). It logically should have formed the crater if Kushida really goes around at those speeds, and also, it's Kushida's narration we are talking about, she isn't as observant as Ayanokouji. Afaik, the current debate is about the interpretation of the feat rather than the apparent inconsistency.

The feat performed by sudo is a mistranslation, in the raw japanese text, it is only stated that sudo kicked the desk and nothing else, it was already talked about here when another user calculated it

Zefra said that he had a way of proving its relevancy, though I don't know completely about that. But yes, that part where Sudou splinters the desk does happen to be the official Seven Seas translation and not an MTL or a fan TL unlike what people speculated.

Even though I believe Ayanokoji and Kouinji are likely wall level, I disagree with placing them there due to the current state of the AP feats on the verse page.

Kouinji’s feat is unquestionably durability. it’s not AP.

On Koji’s durability being > Koji AP. Hard disagree, as Tsukishiro took multiple strikes to go down.

Currently, the 3 AP feats are 4Kj Ibuki, 1.2 Mj Ichika and 2.1 Mj something Sudo.

The inconsistency needs to be addressed imo.

Calculations having a large difference in their resultant values don't account for inconsistency in a verse. See MCU for example, it has characters performing high tier feats while having low tier feats subsequently (like Infinity Ultron performs a Tier 3 feat and a Tier 5 feat). It really wouldn't make Sudou > Ichika in AP in case you happen to wonder about that (considering both the calcs as valid). And as Morris highlighted, the state of both the calcs is currently in question.

 

[RoggerReggor]

I don't agree. Ayanokoji didn't give his all during the fight, he said so himself. Secondly, he overcame this again in the last volume, when Hosen punched Albert, he stated that Hosen was very strong and his hand tingled and then he equated Hosen and Ayanokoji. Then Ryuen said they were not equal. Albert changed his mind and said that Ayanokoji was stronger. What is stated here is that in pure strength and pure strength Ayanokoji > Hosen.
We know that Hosen is able to harm Albert and this puts him above Albert.

If you mean that Pure Strength is Lifting Strength, then Housen = Albert.

Either way, I don't know how this helps in proving the comparison between Kouenji and Ayanokouji.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

It's being debated currently, but again, COTE is a novel, so I don't really go with the "it isn't mentioned so it mustn't have happened" thing (and Qawsed also mentioned how it doesn't happen to be in line with inconsistencies). It logically should have formed the crater if Kushida really goes around at those speeds, and also, it's Kushida's narration we are talking about, she isn't as observant as Ayanokouji. Afaik, the current debate is about the interpretation of the feat rather than the apparent inconsistency.

Better call for more mods to check it.

Zefra said that he had a way of proving its relevancy, though I don't know completely about that. But yes, that part where Sudou splinters the desk does happen to be the official Seven Seas translation and not an MTL or a fan TL unlike what people speculated.

Eh, not sure about that, I don't really think anyone can prove a feat that doesn't exist.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Eh, not sure about that, I don't really think anyone can prove a feat that doesn't exist.

Maybe he has the author showing that it's valid.

 

[MCH2]

My main gripe is that instead of giving Koji / Koeinji wall level based on residual from a 50 Kj durability feat, we need a good AP feat that isn’t laced with a million asterisks.

And I would honestly look at the anime for that, both the manga and especially the LN suffer from having to use our own assumptions for many things.

 

[Dinozxd]

My main gripe is that instead of giving Koji / Koeinji wall level based on residual from a 50 Kj durability feat, we need a good AP feat that isn’t laced with a million asterisks.

And I would honestly look at the anime for that, both the manga and especially the LN suffer from having to use our own assumptions for many things.

I agree with this fully.

It just feels weird scaling a verse to wall level without a single visual object or enviromental destruction feat.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

And I would honestly look at the anime for that, both the manga and especially the LN suffer from having to use our own assumptions for many things.

I very much agree with this sentiment.

I personally don't agree with most of what are considered 'feats' in this novel, it's a novel for a reason, meaning things are explained detailedly, so I believe that if something performed is to be of certain caliber, the writer would make it more explicit for the readers to understand that they're of that caliber.

So the best thing is to wait for anime adaptation for certain feats or either at the very least, go for what's the most probable, instead of trying to interpret a feat in an extremely specific manner that makes a feat having unreasonably high end result

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

But it isn't up for me to decide so it's whatever mods think.

 

[RoggerReggor]

My main gripe is that instead of giving Koji / Koeinji wall level based on residual from a 50 Kj durability feat, we need a good AP feat that isn’t laced with a million asterisks.

What do you mean? If you get a durability feat for a character and if a character can somehow significantly damage the character with that amount of durability, then that character also scales to their durability, letting possibility of them deliberately hitting their pressure points, that is.

 

[MCH2]

What do you mean? If you get a durability feat for a character and if a character can somehow significantly damage the character with that amount of durability, then that character also scales to their durability, letting possibility of them deliberately hitting their pressure points, that is.

You might need multiple full power strikes, you would hit their weak points, etc. I am not sure how you’d go about converting a likely 50 kJ durability feat to AP given that. For all intents and purposes Koeinji could be more durable than Koji given the big difference in pure mass and size.

I still stand by my suggestion regarding the current state of AP calcs for the verse.

Also regarding translation, there have been cases where the official TL was wrong. An example of this is the wager between Horikita and Koeinji in y2v3. In both the raw and the fan TL, if Koeinji failed he would have to help in the next special exam. But the official TL changed it to indefinitely.

I’d suggest looking at the raw and perhaps using a tool like chatGPT to deduce what’s more likely to be a correct TL when fan vs official TL differ.

 

[Dinozxd]

I’d suggest looking at the raw and perhaps using a tool like chatGPT to deduce what’s more likely to be a correct TL when fan vs official TL differ.

I think someone already translated the raw version of the Sudou feat before and it didn't state something like "splintering" which is why the original calculation was rejected.