Really small kirby CRT

[The_Pink_God]

This is not that big of a change to be 100% honest, it's pretty simple actually
As you may or may not know Kirby characters have a huge chain scaling that leads to the verse being so-called "Borderline 3-C", which in turn make the verse far into 4-A itself

However, the characters from Kirby are rated as At least Multi-Solar System level, and according to the Attack Potency page where it says:
Currently misused to an extraordinary degree on the wiki, the "+" symbol should be used when the Attack Potency has been calculated to be greater than the average (arithmetic mean) of the high-end energy level and low-end energy level of a particular tier.

The "+" symbol can also be used if there exists a calculation extremely close to the arithmetic mean, and characters scale above the calculated feat by a wide margin, for example being able to defeat enemies on such levels with a single casual attack.

So I suggest we add the + symbol to all Kirby character who is scalable to "Borderline 3-C" as they meet the following requirements
That's all

 

[Bernkastelll]

It seems good, uncontroversial and makes sense, if they are borderline 3-C, they should have ''+''

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Hard disagree. While I already disagree with the scaling itself, the gap between 4-A and 4-A+ is already that of a 312x gap between the results of a single starry sky ap feat.

 

[The_Pink_God]

Hard disagree. While I already disagree with the scaling itself, the gap between 4-A and 4-A+ is already that of a 312x gap between the results of a single starry sky ap feat.

Ummm
Did you even saw why they scale to 4-A+?

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Ummm
Did you even saw why they scale to 4-A+?

Scaling to the Master Crown, which affected around 15 worlds, and has since gotten stronger. 15x baseline. That's still a massive gap.

 

[The_Pink_God]

Scaling to the Master Crown, which affected around 15 worlds, and has since gotten stronger. 15x baseline. That's still a massive gap.

Yeah but, that's part of it
The real reason why Kirby would be 4-A+ is because of this little chain scaling

Whispy Woods (At least when powered by a Jamba Heart piece as he can take hits from a Friend Star, which is created by 4 Star Allies whereas a Warp Star can just be made by Kirby. The later 2 amps 2 different Jamba Heart pieces gave were portrayed as something even one of them could do, so they should all be each as strong)<King Dedede (Powered by a Jamba Heart, fought longer when its power visually manifested than what he could without it. The Jamba Heart also made him grow in size & musculature)<Meta Knight (Powered by a Jamba Heart, same case as with DDD except he could duplicate and use TK instead of growing in size & musculature)<Pon & Con<Francisca<Flamberge<Zan Partizanne<Whispy Woods (This is another Whispy Woods, they're a race. A Jamba Heart is in front of him before its fights and this will keep happening with future bosses; with Kracko we specifically got text saying that something about his energy was different and that the Star Allies had to stay on their guard, so this should likely imply that all those bosses got corrupted by a Jamba Heart, and maybe amped by it too. This Whispy Woods can just be as strong as the other one shown though<Yggy Woods (Fought right after the other boss, should be at least stroger than it and maybe even stronger than Zan Partizanne on her first fight)<Goldon & Silvox<Grand Mam<Francisca (Second fight. Said to be "tougher than ever before")<Kracko<Flamberge (Second fight)<Zan Partizanne (Second fight)<Hyness (Weaker than Zan Partizanne in-gameplay, he tossed her while she was already defeated but still able to take attacks from the Star Allies. He's most likely weaker to an unknown extent, and still able to take hits and harm the Star Allies)<Hyness with the energy from the Three Mage-Sisters [Francisca, Flamberge & Zan Partizanne] absorbed (Now he's a much more notable boss than even Zan Partizanne)<Void Termina (Devil form. Is composed of the combined energy/condensed power of from most Jamba Heart pieces [like 75% of the full Jamba Heart], Hyness, and the Three Mage-Sisters [Francisca, Flamberge & Zan Partizanne], all of which were merged, which completed the Jamba Heart [So nevermind how the Jamba Heart wasn't complete before]. This now full Jamba Heart turned into Void Termina, the important parts to note his power being that 1. The complete Jamba Heart is made of several dozens or even hundreds of Jamba Heart pieces, and 2. Again, each Jamba Heart piece scales to what the ones that powered Dedede and Meta Knight could do)<Void Termina (First Core form. May be his second phase but he's just being fought from the inside, he could just be comparable to his other form. Alternatively, since it's his core it may use power more easily)<Void Termina (Angel form)<Void Termina (Final Core form. In his Devil and Angel forms he creates things in a very specific manner that disappear in the same way, but it turns out those forms were in turn created by him in his Final Core form)

Which makes Post-Star Allies Kirby Characters borderline 3-C
Literally this far from them being 3-C

 

[BlastX]

Doesn't matter how high the scaling chain is, no calc means no +

 

[Lou_change]

Scaling to the Master Crown, which affected around 15 worlds, and has since gotten stronger. 15x baseline. That's still a massive gap.

The hearts are two games stronger and void is at least a thousand I believe so it's like 15*1000=15000 15000x stary sky at a likely minimum.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Aha. No. Sorry, but an item amping you =/= suddenly that item is equal to you. A long scaling chain is not gonna make Kirby 219x stronger.

 

[The_Pink_God]

Doesn't matter how high the scaling chain is, no calc means no +

Even tho their literally few numbers away from Galaxy level?

 

[The_Pink_God]

It appears as we have 2 disagreements and 1 agreement already

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Even tho their literally few numbers away from Galaxy level?

No, their calculation puts them at multi-solar system level, multiplying that by 15 gives us 2.532e+64 joules. That's NOWHERE near close for a plus.

 

[The_Pink_God]

Well 2 disagreements counted

 

[The_Pink_God]

No, their calculation puts them at multi-solar system level, multiplying that by 15 gives us 2.532e+64 joules. That's NOWHERE near close for a plus.

That's Pre-Star Allies
We're talking about Post-Star Allies

 

[DatOneWeeb]

That's Pre-Star Allies
We're talking about Post-Star Allies

Post-Star Allies Kirby at the moment only upscales from that feat, so that doesn't change anything.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Disagree, you need a calc for a +, otherwise Canon Yoda and Sidious would be High 7-C+

 

[The_Pink_God]

Disagree, you need a calc for a +, otherwise Canon Yoda and Sidious would be High 7-C+

The "+" symbol can also be used if there exists a calculation extremely close to the arithmetic mean, and characters scale above the calculated feat by a wide margin, for example being able to defeat enemies on such levels with a single casual attack.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yoda has a calc that is borderline +, and he doesn't have it.

 

[The_Pink_God]

Yoda has a calc that is borderline +, and he doesn't have it.

You could just make a CRT like the one I'm doing now yknow

 

[DaReaperMan]

Also if a 40+ character scaling chain isn't enough to get to 7-B+ from 8.8 Megatons then anything Kirbey has aint touching 4-A+ without a calc

 

[DaReaperMan]

You could just make a CRT like the one I'm doing now yknow

It would be shot down by the staff, why should I?

 

[BlastX]

Yes, the calc needs to be extremely close

X15 starry sky isn't close in the slightest.

 

[Eficiente]

Aha. No. Sorry, but an item amping you =/= suddenly that item is equal to you. A long scaling chain is not gonna make Kirby 219x stronger.

That's an imprecise oversimplification. If we were to walk away from this thread with that take, we would need to downgrade the first key of the Jamba Heart profile, which I can defend by looking up the profile and little more.

Jamba Heart

A Jamba Heart is the vessel for Void, they can turn into a new incarnation of him when completed. As there are as many Voids are there are dimensions, it's likely that all of them either have a born incarnation of Void or Jamba Hearts yet to be completed. A previous, evil incarnation of Void in...

vsbattles.fandom.com

So,

• DDD fought and lost to Kirby & co. after losing less than half of his health, then the Jamba Heart piece kicked in to give him extra power to fight better with an exaggeratedly increased musculature, bigger than his body.
• MK fought and lost to Kirby & co. after losing less than half of his health, then the Jamba Heart piece kicked in to give him extra power, and the ability being the ability to turn into 4 copies of himself of even power each. Both of this cases are what "even one" of those hearts can do.
• Whispy Woods, who we have as 5-A/a low-tier for good reasons, was the first we saw amped by 1 of those hearts, being able to fight Kirby & co. w/ a Friend Star, made by the 4 of them, when a 4-A Warp Star is only made by Kirby. Makes perfect sense for Whispy to be weaker than DDD or MK as he lacks their power himself, and added to their own power they all have the heart.
• All the hearts while inside their possessed victims are able to take hits from Kirby & co. until they defeat the foe and kick the heart out of it. The exterior part of their bodies doesn't take all the damage, tho I bit more fair would be to ignore how every character is given an energy beam that canonically passes through you if it hits you.
• Not a reason but just context, it's kinda weird how all the hearts can keep up w/ the Star Allies yet would have lower power.

This isn't some "an item amping you =/= suddenly that item is equal to you", I can say that's the case for some cereal that gives energy for part of a day, this is more so like some cartoonish drug that makes your arms 4 times bigger and with better musculature, subtlety included.

Disagree, you need a calc for a +, otherwise Canon Yoda and Sidious would be High 7-C+

That's a made up rule. Out of just recent examples Scott Pilgrim and Jotaro got upgrades due to their feats and upscaling. A "+" is less than a tier upgrade. We have the calc for starry skys feats, upscaling, and thus a +, that's that.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

DDD fought and lost to Kirby & co. after losing less than half of his health, then the Jamba Heart piece kicked in to give him extra power to fight better with an exaggeratedly increased musculature, bigger than his body.

Which literally falls back to "it's an item that's used to amplify your power". An item amplifying you doesn't exactly warrant that it makes you equal in power to the owner.

MK fought and lost to Kirby & co. after losing less than half of his health, then the Jamba Heart piece kicked in to give him extra power, and the ability being the ability to turn into 4 copies of himself of even power each. Both of this cases are what "even one" of those hearts can do.

So it gives him duplication. Amazing. Can't wait to give any duplication equipment equal tiering to its user.

Whispy Woods, who we have as 5-A/a low-tier for good reasons, was the first we saw amped by 1 of those hearts, being able to fight Kirby & co. w/ a Friend Star, made by the 4 of them, when a 4-A Warp Star is only made by Kirby. Makes perfect sense for Whispy to be weaker than DDD or MK as he lacks their power himself, and added to their own power they all have the heart.

This feels pretty outdated, considering this scan is from Kirby's very first game. Is there anymore cases where he isn't canonically fodder? Because he can still harm the cast from other games. And I imagine his other versions shouldn't be completely stronger than him. I mean it's generally shown while usually being an early game boss, he himself can make himself grow, which I imagine would mean he's stronger than before. And if you yourself claim Kirby gets stronger often, you'd think he would too in order not to get completely stomped. He doesn't need to be as strong, but back scaling exists, and I feel as if a single statement from only the first game is enough. And hell, the game sometimes warns you to be careful.

All the hearts while inside their possessed victims are able to take hits from Kirby & co. until they defeat the foe and kick the heart out of it. The exterior part of their bodies doesn't take all the damage, tho I bit more fair would be to ignore how every character is given an energy beam that canonically passes through you if it hits you.

But they do? Unless you mean visual scratches (which no character has for their models), characters like Whispy, Dedede, Meta Knight, Pon/Con, and just in general everyone are displayed to be knocked out.

Not a reason but just context, it's kinda weird how all the hearts can keep up w/ the Star Allies yet would have lower power.

Because backscaling, not like every Kirby boss (or barely any) are stated or hinted to already be close to Kirby in power. Doesn't Kirby most of the time just win anyways? Which would just mean they're already weaker than him to begin with.

This isn't some "an item amping you =/= suddenly that item is equal to you", I can say that's the case for some cereal that gives energy for part of a day, this is more so like some cartoonish drug that makes your arms 4 times bigger and with better musculature, subtlety included.

But... your example was just that. The heart piece amplifies you, and thus makes you stronger. But I wouldn't exactly say the amount of it doing so is comparable to you yourself, because we don't know to the extent. It'd have to be reasonable, sure, but at the moment the best case you have is Wispy, whom should already be scaling to Kirby by then.

 

[The_Pink_God]

Oh boy this will be interesting

 

[The_Pink_God]

Bump

 

[Eficiente]

Which literally falls back to "it's an item that's used to amplify your power". An item amplifying you doesn't exactly warrant that it makes you equal in power to the owner.

That's a single-minded idea. If a character has X tier on their arms and a certain size w/ them but something makes them grow their arms makes times bigger and better then you have crearly what's attributed to the character by themselves and the thing amping them, all the og size of the character as it was applied to their new figure is their own merit on their own tier, all the extra body mass that overlaps from their og form is not their own metit, that's from the thing amping them and w/ the same tier as they can use those new parts to attack w/ the same tier.

To say that we just can't give a tier to it is like saying that a character of a certain tier shooting an energy beam being helped by a character of unknown tier making the beam 4 times bigger (and somehow better) shouldn't scale to the same tier due to it being unquantifiable.

The Jamba Hearts aren't items, but living things using their power to do what they did just to showcase their power, part of the purpose of it being in turn to make players notice how powerful Void Termina should be.

So it gives him duplication. Amazing. Can't wait to give any duplication equipment equal tiering to its user.

If you don't, then an item that can make copies of a 4-A (by turning them into energy, splitting, and turning those into a copy each) may as well to copies of a 3-A too, if this doesn't raise an eyebrow then idk what to tell you.

I forgot, the heart MK got also gave him TK attacks, with which he could cover you with energy from the heart to trap you and harm you. MK got that 4-A attack because of the heart.

This feels pretty outdated, considering this scan is from Kirby's very first game.

It's old, yes, but not outdated. Whispy's the first boss or sub-boss you face in most games, or an environmental hazard when anything can be that. He blows air at you and throws apples, I would think he's meant to be weak for his own reasons and as a dynamic in the Kirby games where more powerful stuff pops up later.

Is there anymore cases where he isn't canonically fodder?

When he shows up more than once in a game or gets amped, if he shows up again then so do other bosses, and their would-be bigger power (via powerscaling) only goes for them as individuals rather than the beings of the same species.

Because he can still harm the cast from other games.

So does a Waddle Dee.

And I imagine his other versions shouldn't be completely stronger than him.

It was created by Taranza, a 4-A, to stop Kirby from following him, and Taranza didn't know how who Kirby was. And he's still the first boss w/o any reason to scale at 4-A, unlike the second boss.

I mean it's generally shown while usually being an early game boss, he himself can make himself grow, which I imagine would mean he's stronger than before.

Yeah, the tree can also jump and fly.

And if you yourself claim Kirby gets stronger often, you'd think he would too in order not to get completely stomped.

Many things

• He's a member of a species, if it's shown more than once in the same game they can be the same and have grown in power or be another Whispy, but in other games they're not the same Whispy.
• Any main characters we know grow in power like that isn't something that would apply to weaker characters like Whispy.
• The reason why Kirby grows in power like he does is because of the team work w/ allies and the friendship they have makes that happen. That's something I would believe everyone can do in Kirby and yet nobody minus a counted number of characters does. As you can see in the scaling chain some Twin Woods tried this out and went from "They could maybe scale to Kirby but that doesn't look good" to"They legit scale to Kirby", which is logically a special case.
• People in Dreamland are lazy.

He doesn't need to be as strong, but back scaling exists, and I feel as if a single statement from only the first game is enough. And hell, the game sometimes warns you to be careful.

Well, even 5-A seems a bit weird for him for most games, but that's as far we can put him w/o any shenanigan going on for him.

And hell, the game sometimes warns you to be careful.

Where do they? W/o any amp for him it sounds like something you could say about minor enemies too, that's as much of a feat as him being able to harm you in gameplay. In the most important games everything's a threat at first until suspension of disbiief is gained and what ends up happening in the games comes off as more impressive, some minor enemy in the first level of Star Allies scared Kirby when trying to attack him on a cinematic, that alone is miles better than anything Whispy has and that the minor enemy doesn't scale anyway.

But they do? Unless you mean visual scratches (which no character has for their models), characters like Whispy, Dedede, Meta Knight, Pon/Con, and just in general everyone are displayed to be knocked out.

The exterior parts of their bodies isn't some shield w/ higher durability and total absorption of kinetic energy for the parts inside, otherwise electric attacks that passes through Kirby characters and any characters would destroy their organs from 1 tier below. Kirby's biggest injury was a couple of tiny cuts in official art, the other end of damage is to blow up.

Also to note, Kirby has been able a few times to beat the possessed victim of Dark Matter, kick them out of their bodies, and make the Dark Matter blow up as a result of that. Against Dark Nebula the latter kinda got dizzy for a while after Kirby kicked him out of his victim. The Jamba Hearts' possession should work the same, as Dark Matter and everyone are descendants of Void Termina and the latter uses their attacks and powers, primarily Dark Matter's.

Doesn't Kirby most of the time just win anyways? Which would just mean they're already weaker than him to begin with.

Yeah but it's a 4v1, with friendship making the 4 grow stronger and it being implied that they needed that team work to win through the story.

But... your example was just that. The heart piece amplifies you, and thus makes you stronger. But I wouldn't exactly say the amount of it doing so is comparable to you yourself, because we don't know to the extent. It'd have to be reasonable, sure, but at the moment the best case you have is Wispy, whom should already be scaling to Kirby by then.

Idk why that reaffirmation of your take is there I imagined it was a innocent question or stretchy proposal.

Should your take be true we would walk away from this thread downgrading the first key of the Jamba Heart, upgrading Wispy and all other bosses and mid-bosses above him at a Kirby level, and keeping them at a Kirby level as Kirby gets even stronger. That's nonsense.

 

[The_Pink_God]

Bump

 

[DaReaperMan]

You know that is a real impressive scaling chain, but crossing even a 100x gap is not happening with a scaling chain, especially one that is from what was posted above, 20 characters. Why in the 18 spheres of hell should I even begin to accept that as being solid enough evidence for upscaling enough to cross a 300x, I repeat 300x gap?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Where does 3-C even come from? And who is currently 3-C that people are downscaling from? But the others are right about how "+" signs work.

 

[BlastX]

There's no 3-C, certain people just act like Kirby's Scaling chain brings the verse to nearly 3-C

 

[DaReaperMan]

20 character scaling chain from what is approximately 15x baseline 4-A or thereabouts.

 

[Lou_change]

Void seems to be considered at least a dozen jamba hearts if we have 15x stary sky maglor and multiply by 12 below the accepted minimum it is 180x this is ignoring the fact there is a large scaling chain from the to previous games and the statement I got 12 from was dozens not dozen and 24*15=360 stary sky

If we accept hundreds a minimalist 200

We get 3000x stary sky

If we assume the two previous two games only lead to a 1.5 times increase we get 4500x stary sky

Note: This is merely meant to be an interpretation of the logic that brought us here it's validness is highly questionable.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Where does 3-C even come from? And who is currently 3-C that people are downscaling from? But the others are right about how "+" signs work.

3-C is not real; it's something made up to make kirby AP seem stronger than it actually is via completely unquantifiable differences

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, no. We do not assume multipliers like that; this is 4-A Buu saga all over again...

 

[Lou_change]

The only multiplier is the 1.5 everything else in really insert number of hearts and void is assumed at least equal to the sum of their parts 15*12 is just easier to write then 15+15+15+15+15+15+15+15+15+15+15+15

 

[DaReaperMan]

The question of the day is: why should Jamba hearts stack?

 

[Lou_change]

I don't know, I just am trying to explain the logic that they are using, I don't understand AP

 

[DaReaperMan]

.

Basically: VT has dozens of things that scale to 15x baseline 4-A, so he should scale to all of them stacked on top of eachother in a multiplier fashion is the logic of this CRT.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Kirby supporters on their way to justify treating kirby as thousands of times stronger than his actual AP