Real Life Big Animals CRT 2

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

They can probably be applied then.

 

[R4ndomPlayer315]

Ay so should the 41000 psi bite value be removed from the Megalodon's profile? Because I tried looking for a source that states that however I hadn't found one, though one of them that states that it had a bite force of up to 41000 pounds of force (182377.0856 newtons), not in psi, which the source cites the same study that estimates the Megalodon's bite force as being 108514 - 182201 newtons.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Ay so should the 41000 psi bite value be removed from the Megalodon's profile? Because I tried looking for a source that states that but again, I hadn't found one, one of them that states that it had a bite force of up to 41000 pounds of force (182377.0856 newtons), which the source cites the same study that estimates the Megalodon's bite force as being 108514 - 182201 newtons.

The wikipedia page for Megalodon is a featured article, which makes it a very trusted source.

Most other sources cite 40 to at most 41 thousand psi. But since wikipedia is edited regularly, that ironically makes the posterior bite force of 108,514 to 182,201 N (24,395 to 40,960 lbf).

Despite wikipedia traditionally not being the go to source, you can update the psi & N/lbf force accordingly. Just archive it in these sites when its' a website page so we're not force to hunt for the bite source again.

 

[R4ndomPlayer315]

The wikipedia page for Megalodon is a featured article, which makes it a very trusted source.

Most other sources cite 40 to at most 41 thousand psi. But since wikipedia is edited regularly, that ironically makes the posterior bite force of 108,514 to 182,201 N (24,395 to 40,960 lbf).

Despite wikipedia traditionally not being the go to source, you can update the psi & N/lbf force accordingly. Just archive it in these sites when its' a website page so we're not force to hunt for the bite source again.

alright

 

[H3110l12345I20]

alright

Lol, I didn't mean to say/imply to put the archived versions of the pages on the page. I meant to put the original links themselves.

I mean the unconventional linking is technically correct. For future edits, make sure the format for the links/references are consistent with the other link/reference formats for the rest of the page. That's how wikipedians make organized references on their articles.

The archived links may come across as slightly older than it should. I traditionally use the original links unless link rot caught up to the pages.

I meant to archive the pages so we can look back at them if they poof from existance.

 

[Antvasima]

Proposals looks fine to me.

Thank you for helping out.

They can probably be applied then.

Has this been applied yet?

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Has this been applied yet?

I've halted most of my efforts in IRL to work on composite human in Joke Battles & other things until around December 1. But if you want me to apply some of the changes on this thread eventually this month, ok. You're the admin.

 

[Antvasima]

What has been accepted here can probably be applied now, yes.

 

[Flashlight237]

Okay, hold the eff up here! I noticed that the Bison's article said that it can handle bulls, but the article it linked literally had nothing to do with bison: https://historybanter.com/animal-cage-fighting-in-mexico/

It's an article that went into detail about how certain fights between lions, bears, and bulls went.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Okay, hold the eff up here! I noticed that the Bison's article said that it can handle bulls, but the article it linked literally had nothing to do with bison: https://historybanter.com/animal-cage-fighting-in-mexico/

It's an article that went into detail about how certain fights between lions, bears, and bulls went.

Nice necro
Anyways, I actually looked into the scan. The reason why its valid is this quote within it: "Another fight saw an American buffalo taking on a bull. In this instance, the two animals rammed one another head on with the heavier buffalo managing to concuss the bull and win the fight."

The profile of the American Bison literally states that they can be also refered to as Buffalo.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

What has been accepted here can probably be applied now, yes.

Ant, when do you want you request to redo stuff with the Goat to be posted here? 3 or 7 days?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that you can begin to work on improving our goat profile page if you wish, if that is what you wish.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I think that you can begin to work on improving our goat profile page if you wish, if that is what you wish.

Since you've requested to improve stuff on the goat's tier, I'll copy-paste my findings and suggested changes.

• Goat. Even though they routinely have and can use their charges in combat, DarlingAurora has originally shown by example that if an animal has more consistently shown a tier different than the tier of their regular charges, it’s permissible to move that said animal into that tier. This has been shown in her contributions in the American Black Bear, Wild Boar, and Domestic Pig, which are capable of using charges as a method of attack in-character.
  
  So what happens if we stop relying on their charges as their tier justification? They’re 10-C to 10-B normally.
  
  The sentences of these following changes below will be added and will not always be rewrites.*
  
  Attack Potency: Varies (Strength varies on the size and weight of the breed; most breeds weigh 40-250 lb (18.1-113 kg)) from Below Average Human level (Can overpower hawks. A 18.1 kg goat isn’t large enough to fend off a coyote) to at least Human level normally (Are closely related to domestic sheep. Can knock down humans from where they stand (Ar), and can harm them and can weigh heavier than them. Some can stand their ground against or even fend off coyotes despite usually having trouble fending off predators, especially ones stronger than them or coyotes), Street level kinetic energy (Can use their charges to knock down humans, knockout cattle and contest with each other in combat)
  
  Lifting Strength: Varies from Below Average Human to Athletic Human (Can pull 1.5 times their weight)
  
  Durability: Varies from Below Average Human level to at least Human level normally, Street level for their heads (Can get only minor head trauma from rammings from other goats and should be taller than domestic sheep, which are usually 4-5 ft (1.23-1.52 m) long and stand 2-4 ft (61-123 cm) tall. Their skulls can withstand the force of a casually running cow that would get knocked out shortly after. Can take minor cuts from pitbull bites)
  
  Weaknesses: Relies on fleeing and herding behavior to defend themselves against predators, otherwise they can easily get overpowered and killed by them.
• Domestic Sheep: As for the domestic sheep (they scale by virtue of being a related animal to the Goat)
  The sentences of these following changes below will be added and will not always be rewrites.*
  
  AP: Varies (Strength varies on the size and weight of the breed. Sheep weigh 40-130 kg and are shorter than other ungulates. They’re usually 4-5 ft (1.23-1.52 m) long and they stand 2-4 ft (61-123 cm) tall) from Below Average Human level to at least Human level normally (Closely related to Goats to where some people confuse the 2 animals with each other. Can harm other humans despite being usually defenseless farm animals. However, they’re not as wild and muscular as wild related bovidae of similar weight, who can successfully harm wolves and overpower dogs easily), Street level kinetic energy (Males and dominant ewes use their charges to ram at other people, goats, and predators)
  
  Lifting Strength: Varies from Below Average Human to Athletic Human, likely lower (While physically on par with goats, their legs aren’t as strong as them and should be weaker than goats in terms of pulling. Some have been trained to pull carts, sleighs and wagons)
  
  Durability: Varies from Below Average Human level to at least Human level normally, Street level heads (Related to goats, and can be uninjured from being tossed into a field several feet by a human. Can withstand the force of other sheep ramming head-to-head onto their skull at full speed with minor injury)
  
  Weaknesses: Relies on fleeing and herding behavior to defend themselves against predators, otherwise they can easily get overpowered and killed by them.
• Dogs: Dogs are remarked as dangerous predators of the goat. Any dog stronger than a pitbull/coyote should be 10-B with the goat as supporting evidence. If their physical/lifting strength gets close to, the goat’s size and LS (169.5 kg), the dog should be at least 10-B in tier. If the dog exceeds the goat’s strength, then their tier should be 10-A.

Now that I think of it, if they were 9-C, some of them should be capable of fending off 10-A predators with some success. The suggested tiers are more consistent, albeit a concession on the Goat's skull AP.

 

[Flashlight237]

That's the thing. Unlike creatures such as pigs and cattle, creatures such as goats and bighorn sheep are actually designed to charge into things head-on. The example of a goat knocking a cattle out is a showing of them being Street Level as, as shown in the video, the goat ran into the cow as one would expect from the charge. I don't think an animal that straight-up concussed a cow should be downgraded (never mind one that is already pathetic in the KE department compared to, again, pigs).

 

[H3110l12345I20]

That's the thing. Unlike creatures such as pigs and cattle, creatures such as goats and bighorn sheep are actually designed to charge into things head-on. The example of a goat knocking a cattle out is a showing of them being Street Level as, as shown in the video, the goat ran into the cow as one would expect from the charge. I don't think an animal that straight-up concussed a cow should be downgraded (never mind one that is already pathetic in the KE department compared to, again, pigs).

The problem here is that goats and sheep already have a hard time fending off their predators.

Their regular AP and durability feats hasn't really shown to go above 10-A; is a goat even strong enough to fend off a 9-C predator? Nevermind the fact that domestic goats and sheep aren't really as strong as their wild counterparts.

Plus, I think these details flew over your head vvv

DarlingAurora has originally shown by example that if an animal has more consistently shown a tier different than the tier of their regular charges, it’s permissible to move that said animal into that tier. This has been shown in her contributions in the American Black Bear, Wild Boar, and Domestic Pig, which are capable of using charges as a method of attack in-character.

Now that I think of it, if they were 9-C, some of them should be capable of fending off 10-A predators with some success. The suggested tiers are more consistent, albeit a concession on the Goat's skull AP.

Would it be more consistent to move black bears back to 9-B territory? Wild Boars back into their KE tier? Domestic Pigs to be 9-C when they're not really consistently there?

I'll make a correction that she may have not done stuff to the domestic pig, still, the examples still remain from her contributions.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

bump

 

[H3110l12345I20]

The problem here is that goats and sheep already have a hard time fending off their predators.

Their regular AP and durability feats hasn't really shown to go above 10-A; is a goat even strong enough to fend off a 9-C predator? Nevermind the fact that domestic goats and sheep aren't really as strong as their wild counterparts.

Plus, I think these details flew over your head vvv


Would it be more consistent to move black bears back to 9-B territory? Wild Boars back into their KE tier? Domestic Pigs to be 9-C when they're not really consistently there?

I'll make a correction that she may have not done stuff to the domestic pig, still, the examples still remain from her contributions.

bumping for this post ^^^

 

[Antvasima]

H3 makes sense to me above.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

bumpity yeet.

H3 makes sense to me above.

So do we need more input, or should this change be applied? vvv

The problem here is that goats and sheep already have a hard time fending off their predators.

Their regular AP and durability feats hasn't really shown to go above 10-A; is a goat even strong enough to fend off a 9-C predator? Nevermind the fact that domestic goats and sheep aren't really as strong as their wild counterparts.

Plus, I think these details flew over your head vvv


Would it be more consistent to move black bears back to 9-B territory? Wild Boars back into their KE tier? Domestic Pigs to be 9-C when they're not really consistently there?

I'll make a correction that she may have not done stuff to the domestic pig, still, the examples still remain from her contributions.

^^^

Newsflash, DarlingAurora has stated that she may return to IRL in January. The big thing that's stopping her from comming back is that she doesn't understand the new concepts. So I'll be prioritizing making standards for doing stuff in the IRL verse on-site.

In the meantime, I'll link dump suggested changes related to fairly trending animal pages in the "Real World" category so DarlingAurora can actually see good examples of what's changed. (As of typing this post, the T. Rex, Lion, Grizzly Bear and Tiger are trending, so I'll link dump stuff related to the aforementioned pages)

Edit: also, the elephant and gorilla profile is a frequent trending profile in the "Real World" category. Which I'll provide even more links and rewording suggestions to support stuff.

Spoiler: Link Dump

Spoiler: Grizzly Bear

• Grizzly Bears are only surprised from a horse kick to the ribs, can swipe a horse hard enough to knock it to the ground
  • Horses like Old Grey Rex can get back up after taking a Grizzly swipe to the muzzle faster than the grizzly could in Rex’s circumstance (While there’s a chance that the witnesses didn’t see any cuts, this feat is a notable display of blunt force durability). Was able to wound the Grizzly Bear.
    • As for how good of a durability feat this is, this feat has quite the vagueness despite circumstances suggesting that the horse could have taken little to no damage from the horse swipe. So at most 9-C+ for the horse is fine since there's also an argument to me made about the observers of the fight being unable/report to see any notable damage on the horse during the feat.
• Grizzly Biology & Behavior - Western Wildlife Outreach (enhanced senses; eyesight, hearing & smell

Spoiler: Elephant

• Elephant
  • AP/LS: Backup support for elephants pushing down trees. Can trade blows with other elephants and break each other's tusks.
  • Dura support: Can withstand pushing each other at full force even without tusks, should be more durable than rhinos.
    • Also, can we put this section in the elephant's current durability in a new explanation section for the profile? It makes stuff more nicer and cleaner.
      • "by being up to 6 inches thick in some areas, spreading out & creating arches at the back, & being strong enough to withstand the force of the elephant's head's weight & force of their trunk.[3][Note 1] Despite having natural sinuses (or honeycomb spaces) that make the skull lighter,[3] an elephant's skull can weigh over 400 kg.[4] The context of a strong skull & high surface area of an elephant results in 2 tuskless elephants being able to withstand a full head-to-head charge from each other from significantly reduced pressure"
• White Rhinoceros
  • Replacement scan for rhinos being able to push each other (link is dead)
  • Dura support: Can withstand getting overpowered and pushed around by larger elephants' trunks and heads (note: While the lessened surface area the rhino was in contact with the elephant would decrease the energy its absorbing drastically, it would still be on the level on the rhino's. The same area of the trunks and head the rhino was in contact with was still capable of pushing down trees. and is capable of having more pushing power than a rhino) and can withstand getting pushed by other comparable rhinos.

Spoiler: Gorilla

• Gorilla (in particular): At the time, I didn't have too much certainty in durability stuff. Now I have more confidence. So can we give rewording and context to turn this section
  • • "Can be visibly unaffected by each other's blows,[3] although they can harm each other."
  • Into this:
    • "Can be visibly unaffected by each other's blows.[3] While they can harm each other, they've shown a musculoskelatal system that's able to absorb and withstand forces higher than humans, orangutans, and chimpanzees"
  • Since gorillas are closely related to us, the context of bones and skelatal muscles that I know and have for human durability would be 90% valid for the gorilla.
• All apes:
  • Non human great apes have a higher density of spongy bone compared to humans.
  • Chimps, Australiopithecus, human hunter-gatherers & other related primates have stronger bone structures than modern humans
    • Hip bone strength in human foragers comparable to other primates
• Chimpanzees and Australopithecus
  • both are related primates
  • Australopithecus: Males of weighed 45-68 kg (99-150 lb) and stood 1.51 m (5 ft) tall. Females weighed 30 kg (66 lb) and stood 1.05 m (3 ft 5 in) tall. With these weights and sizes making them as strong and durable as a chimpanzee.
  • Chimps: Can visibly withstand strikes from each other for several minutes. With the fights being longer than the usual human street fight, which is usually several seconds (Source of street fight duration; Athletic Stamina).
    • Female bonobos, chimps and humans weigh 15% less than males
• Neanderthal
  • Dura support: Superior to other physically comparable athletic homo sapiens at the time and physically comparable to other nonhuman related primates of similar size and weight (like chimps and orangutans). With the primates having stronger bones than modern humans and can have bone structures of comparable strength to other humans of similar size. Members of the genus homo's faces have developed robustness to take full strikes from each other.

Spoiler: Lion

• Leopard
  • Better LS statement: “Leopards are incredibly strong and capable of taking prey much heavier than themselves. Such prey included antelopes.”
    • Better support for the lion and leopard's LS rating

Spoiler: Tiger

• American Black Bear | VS Battles Wiki | Fandom (Since Cattle & will be 9-C+ in AP & durability by calcs from the former. Asiatic Bear can withstand hits from the Tiger, who can smash cattle skulls. The 9-C+ rating is surprisingly going to be fine)
  • This is here to actually fix the Tiger's divored 9-C+ rating.

Spoiler: T. Rex

• Durability support: (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scie...-fossils-show-how-dinosaurs-fought-180981443/)
  • Ankylosaurus (https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rsbl.2022.0404)
    • AP: (Can harm other Ankylosauruses and break their armor in sparring bouts)
    • Dura: (Its armored body makes it almost immune to attack from most dinosaurs and protected against strikes from its kind in sparring bouts. Can be hit by other ankylosaurus and only have a third of their osteoderm’s tops be broken off of their armor)
    • Speed: 3 mph
    • LS: Superhuman (while heavier and bigger than even the largest of crocodiles, its overall low body agility made it unable to lift as much as them)
  • Triceratops
    • AP: (Can fight and harm other Triceratops); (better replacement for the scan that the dino didn't charge at objects full speed)
    • LS: same (Has sufficient speed and strength to be stronger than the strongest living crocodile)
    • Dura: (While they can pierce each other’s frills, their bodies should be capable of withstanding the raw strength of them pushing each other. Can oppose the strength of a T. Rex)
  • T. Rex
    • AP: (Can dent each other's skulls in fights)
    • Durability: (Should be physically comparable with other dinosaurs of similar strength like Triceratops and Ankylosaurus. Their strength and durability should be proportionally upscale from crocodiles like the nile. Their bones can be merely dented by bites from each other even when they're implied to bite into each other's flesh easily)
    • LS: Class 5 (while heavier and bigger than even the largest of crocodiles, its overall lower speed made it unable to lift as much as them)
  • Nile Crocodile
    • Durability: on par with their AP (Can withstand blunt attacks from other physically comparable animals like lions)

Other

• Orangutans can run 40 mph, so that should be applied to the Orangutan and the Gigantopithecus profiles, the latter being related to the former.

Also, I've found quite the reaction time feats and statements that we can scale to IRL animals. Which I'll link later.

Also, permission to apply these calcs?

Spoiler: Calcs

(Checked/Evaluated: Beluga Whale KE (AP section), Black Bear (Survival injury feat evaluated (stamina section), not AP feat (which is unconfirmed to be evaluated)), Cattle KE (AP section), Gray Wolf LS (At least athletic human to peak human in LS) (LS section), Komodo Dragon KE (AP section), Orca KE (AP section), Sheep KE (AP section), Tiger leaps +12 inches into the air (LS section))

 

[H3110l12345I20]

bumpity yeet.


So do we need more input, or should this change be applied? vvv

^^^

Newsflash, DarlingAurora has stated that she may return to IRL in January. The big thing that's stopping her from comming back is that she doesn't understand the new concepts. So I'll be prioritizing making standards for doing stuff in the IRL verse on-site.

In the meantime, I'll link dump suggested changes related to fairly trending animal pages in the "Real World" category so DarlingAurora can actually see good examples of what's changed. (As of typing this post, the T. Rex, Lion, Grizzly Bear and Tiger are trending, so I'll link dump stuff related to the aforementioned pages)

Spoiler: Link Dump

Spoiler: Grizzly Bear

• Grizzly Bears are only surprised from a horse kick to the ribs, can swipe a horse hard enough to knock it to the ground
  • Horses like Old Grey Rex can get back up after taking a Grizzly swipe to the muzzle faster than the grizzly could in Rex’s circumstance (While there’s a chance that the witnesses didn’t see any cuts, this feat is a notable display of blunt force durability). Was able to wound the Grizzly Bear.
    • As for how good of a durability feat this is, this feat has quite the vagueness despite circumstances suggesting that the horse could have taken little to no damage from the horse swipe. So at most 9-C+ for the horse is fine since there's also an argument to me made about the observers of the fight being unable/report to see any notable damage on the horse during the feat.
• Grizzly Biology & Behavior - Western Wildlife Outreach (enhanced senses; eyesight, hearing & smell

Spoiler: Lion

• Leopard
  • Better LS statement: “Leopards are incredibly strong and capable of taking prey much heavier than themselves. Such prey included antelopes.”
    • Better support for the lion and leopard's LS rating

Spoiler: Tiger

• American Black Bear | VS Battles Wiki | Fandom (Since Cattle & will be 9-C+ in AP & durability by calcs from the former. Asiatic Bear can withstand hits from the Tiger, who can smash cattle skulls. The 9-C+ rating is surprisingly going to be fine)
  • This is here to actually fix the Tiger's divored 9-C+ rating.

Spoiler: T. Rex

• Durability support: (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scie...-fossils-show-how-dinosaurs-fought-180981443/)
  • Ankylosaurus (https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rsbl.2022.0404)
    • AP: (Can harm other Ankylosauruses and break their armor in sparring bouts)
    • Dura: (Its armored body makes it almost immune to attack from most dinosaurs and protected against strikes from its kind in sparring bouts. Can be hit by other ankylosaurus and only have a third of their osteoderm’s tops be broken off of their armor)
    • Speed: 3 mph
    • LS: Superhuman (while heavier and bigger than even the largest of crocodiles, its overall low body agility made it unable to lift as much as them)
  • Triceratops
    • AP: (Can fight and harm other Triceratops); (better replacement for the scan that the dino didn't charge at objects full speed)
    • LS: same (Has sufficient speed and strength to be stronger than the strongest living crocodile)
    • Dura: (While they can pierce each other’s frills, their bodies should be capable of withstanding the raw strength of them pushing each other. Can oppose the strength of a T. Rex)
  • T. Rex
    • Durability: (Should be physically comparable with other dinosaurs of similar strength like Triceratops and Ankylosaurus. Their strength and durability should be proportionally upscale from crocodiles like the nile. Their bones can be merely dented by bites from each other even when they're clearly shown to bite into each other's flesh easily)
    • LS: Class 5 (while heavier and bigger than even the largest of crocodiles, its overall lower speed made it unable to lift as much as them)
  • Nile Crocodile
    • Durability: on par with their AP (Can withstand blunt attacks from other physically comparable animals like lions)

Also, I've found quite the reaction time feats and statements that we can scale to IRL animals. Which I'll link later.

Also, permission to apply these calcs?

Spoiler: Calcs

(Checked/Evaluated: Beluga Whale KE (AP section), Black Bear (Survival injury feat evaluated (stamina section), not AP feat (which is unconfirmed to be evaluated)), Cattle KE (AP section), Gray Wolf LS (At least athletic human to peak human in LS) (LS section), Komodo Dragon KE (AP section), Orca KE (AP section), Sheep KE (AP section), Tiger leaps +12 inches into the air (LS section))

bump yay! I'm back to the IRL Verse everyone!

 

[DarlingAurora]

bumpity yeet.


So do we need more input, or should this change be applied? vvv

^^^

Newsflash, DarlingAurora has stated that she may return to IRL in January. The big thing that's stopping her from comming back is that she doesn't understand the new concepts. So I'll be prioritizing making standards for doing stuff in the IRL verse on-site.

In the meantime, I'll link dump suggested changes related to fairly trending animal pages in the "Real World" category so DarlingAurora can actually see good examples of what's changed. (As of typing this post, the T. Rex, Lion, Grizzly Bear and Tiger are trending, so I'll link dump stuff related to the aforementioned pages)

Spoiler: Link Dump

Spoiler: Grizzly Bear

• Grizzly Bears are only surprised from a horse kick to the ribs, can swipe a horse hard enough to knock it to the ground
  • Horses like Old Grey Rex can get back up after taking a Grizzly swipe to the muzzle faster than the grizzly could in Rex’s circumstance (While there’s a chance that the witnesses didn’t see any cuts, this feat is a notable display of blunt force durability). Was able to wound the Grizzly Bear.
    • As for how good of a durability feat this is, this feat has quite the vagueness despite circumstances suggesting that the horse could have taken little to no damage from the horse swipe. So at most 9-C+ for the horse is fine since there's also an argument to me made about the observers of the fight being unable/report to see any notable damage on the horse during the feat.
• Grizzly Biology & Behavior - Western Wildlife Outreach (enhanced senses; eyesight, hearing & smell

Spoiler: Lion

• Leopard
  • Better LS statement: “Leopards are incredibly strong and capable of taking prey much heavier than themselves. Such prey included antelopes.”
    • Better support for the lion and leopard's LS rating

Spoiler: Tiger

• American Black Bear | VS Battles Wiki | Fandom (Since Cattle & will be 9-C+ in AP & durability by calcs from the former. Asiatic Bear can withstand hits from the Tiger, who can smash cattle skulls. The 9-C+ rating is surprisingly going to be fine)
  • This is here to actually fix the Tiger's divored 9-C+ rating.

Spoiler: T. Rex

• Durability support: (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scie...-fossils-show-how-dinosaurs-fought-180981443/)
  • Ankylosaurus (https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rsbl.2022.0404)
    • AP: (Can harm other Ankylosauruses and break their armor in sparring bouts)
    • Dura: (Its armored body makes it almost immune to attack from most dinosaurs and protected against strikes from its kind in sparring bouts. Can be hit by other ankylosaurus and only have a third of their osteoderm’s tops be broken off of their armor)
    • Speed: 3 mph
    • LS: Superhuman (while heavier and bigger than even the largest of crocodiles, its overall low body agility made it unable to lift as much as them)
  • Triceratops
    • AP: (Can fight and harm other Triceratops); (better replacement for the scan that the dino didn't charge at objects full speed)
    • LS: same (Has sufficient speed and strength to be stronger than the strongest living crocodile)
    • Dura: (While they can pierce each other’s frills, their bodies should be capable of withstanding the raw strength of them pushing each other. Can oppose the strength of a T. Rex)
  • T. Rex
    • Durability: (Should be physically comparable with other dinosaurs of similar strength like Triceratops and Ankylosaurus. Their strength and durability should be proportionally upscale from crocodiles like the nile. Their bones can be merely dented by bites from each other even when they're clearly shown to bite into each other's flesh easily)
    • LS: Class 5 (while heavier and bigger than even the largest of crocodiles, its overall lower speed made it unable to lift as much as them)
  • Nile Crocodile
    • Durability: on par with their AP (Can withstand blunt attacks from other physically comparable animals like lions)

Also, I've found quite the reaction time feats and statements that we can scale to IRL animals. Which I'll link later.

Also, permission to apply these calcs?

Spoiler: Calcs

(Checked/Evaluated: Beluga Whale KE (AP section), Black Bear (Survival injury feat evaluated (stamina section), not AP feat (which is unconfirmed to be evaluated)), Cattle KE (AP section), Gray Wolf LS (At least athletic human to peak human in LS) (LS section), Komodo Dragon KE (AP section), Orca KE (AP section), Sheep KE (AP section), Tiger leaps +12 inches into the air (LS section))

If Lioness returns to Street level+ then male Jaguar will too

 

[DarlingAurora]

Aight so I'm back for more suggestions.

Gorilla AP​

So about more than a week ago, I found a source that suggested that a Gorilla can exert 450 kgf, I calced it and it yielded 4855.1453269 joules (9-C, Street level).

It's ok, the other source seems too high for me The problem with this is that you need to scale the own arm length for Female Gorilla too, not just halving the strength of the male one, that it's just for adolecent ones because Female Gorilla have an very different structure than male ones.

Alligator Snapping Turtle bite force recalc​

I'll give an explaination as to why I did a recalc. DarlingAurora's original calc hadn't estimated the jaw height that was near the beak tip of the alligator snapping turtle. The 1550 newton value for its bite force on a Wikipedia article about the alligator snapping turtle is actually false and the actual bite force is 158 newtons for a specimen that is 0.38821 kg. Another source suggests that its bite force is 1000 lbf. The energy yield is 1154.8267522 joules (9-C, Street level).

The 1550 newtons isn't that false after all. There exists an study where it comes close with an bite force of 1872.0 Newtons.

• Bite-force measurements varied from 8.2 to 1872.0 N for Alligator Snapping Turtles and 62.0 to 564.0 N for Common Snapping Turtles.

Also, for the sizes of the turtles:

• We measured the bite force of 62 Alligator Snapping Turtles that varied in size from 0.468 kg to 75 kg and 33 Common Snapping Turtles that varied in size from 1.12 kg to 20.2 kg.

Based on this, we can do the calc.

1. Low-End (0.468 Kg): I don't have source for an small alligator turtle bite gap.
2. Mid-End (Average): 0.25961535917*([8.2+1872]/2) = 244.064399156 Joules or Athletic level+.
3. High-End (75 Kg): 0.25961535917*1872 = 485.999952366 Joules or Street level.

If we have the bite gap for the common snapping turtle, we can calc it too.

Orangutan AP
So because it says that a mature orangutan is more than 4x stronger than the male human, it should be 9-C, Street level (358.068929 joules).

I'm pretty sure that is four times stronger than the average human, not male only.

• Chimpanzee: 74.36548327*1.5 = 111.548224905 Joules or Athletic level.
• Orangutan: 74.36548327*4 = 297.46193308 Joules or Athletic level+.
• Gorilla:
  • Low-End: 74.36548327*4 = 297.46193308 Joules or Athletic level+.
  • Mid-End: 74.36548327*([4+9]/2) = 483.375641255 Joules or Street level.
  • High-End: 74.36548327*9 = 669.28934943 Joules or Street level.

Gigantopithecus AP
So scaling the Gigantopithecus from an orangutan as they're both related.

Weight: 200 - 300 kg (average is 250 kg)
Orangutan weight: 75 kg

(250/75)*358.068929=1193.56309667 joules (9-C, Street level)

If we can use this would've great, because with this we can also scale the strength of female animals, but not sure what staff think about it.

If we use the new value that I get:

•  Calc: (250/75)*297.46193308 = 991.539776933 Joules or Street level.

We still have the source that they can fight big cats as H3 says, but still being more than 13 times stronger than human is pretty much impressive IMO.

Anaconda AP​

Its gonna have to just be downgraded to just 9-C, Street level as it can constrict Jaguars.

I don't think Anaconda can constrict an fully-grown Jaguar, because I only see source of them doing it to young jaguars or female ones, I didn't see any source of an matured male Jaguar getting constricted by an Anaconda.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

If Lioness returns to Street level+ then male Jaguar will too

What do you mean.

I don't think Anaconda can constrict an fully-grown Jaguar, because I only see source of them doing it to young jaguars or female ones, I didn't see any source of an matured male Jaguar getting constricted by an Anaconda.

They can constrict camians of similar strength to alligators/crocs and Jaguars have short term stamina as far as I know. This statement can contradict the class 5 LS justification on its profile (i.e. scaling to Alligators of similar size).

I think this reasoning is related to the availability heuristic, so an explanation also has to take in account of the Alligators stuff and any potential evidence suggesting your statement otherwise.

 

[DarlingAurora]

What do you mean.

Jaguar downscales from Lioness due to being the same size and being very much robust, it's on their profile.

They can constrict camians of similar strength to alligators/crocs and Jaguars have short term stamina as far as I know. This statement can contradict the class 5 LS justification on its profile (i.e. scaling to Alligators of similar size).

Aren't the most of these this caiman? I see Anaconda crushing 6ft caimans and Yellow Anacondas struggling with adult yacare caimans tho.

I know green anacondas are much bigger but black caimans and yacare caimans have much size difference:

• Most adult black caimans are 2.2 to 4.3 m (7 ft 3 in to 14 ft 1 in) in length, with a few old males exceeding 5 m (16 ft 5 in). Mid-sized mature males of 3.5 to 4 m (11 ft 6 in to 13 ft 1 in) weigh approximately 300 kg (660 lb), while large mature specimens exceed 400 to 500 kg (880 to 1,100 lb), being relatively bulky crocodilians.

While yacare only..

• C. yacare is a medium-sized caiman, brown in color. Male specimens grow to 2–3 m (6 ft 7 in – 9 ft 10 in) in total length (including tail) and up to 58 kg (128 lb) in weight. Females are much smaller, with an adult total length of 1.4 m (4 ft 7 in) and weight of 14–23 kg (31–51 lb).

If we can prove that an anaconda can kill an 300 kilogram Black Caiman then it's ok, but if not we can't prove it, Black Caiman size is like one of an American Alligator:

If we can prove that Anaconda can actually kill black caimans and not struggle 40 minutes with an yacare caiman then sure.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Aren't the most of these this caiman? I see Anaconda crushing 6ft caimans and Yellow Anacondas struggling with adult yacare caimans tho.

The availability heruistic is a mental short cut humans make based on the availability of "X" information in their memory. That would be like downgrading Capybaras to 10-C based only off the fact they can crush flies.

 

[DarlingAurora]

The availability heruistic is a mental short cut humans make based on the availability of "X" information in their memory. That would be like downgrading Capybaras to 10-C based only off the fact they can crush flies.

Capybara have sources of biting off humans flesh, have an strong bite, can survive to many jaguar paws and crocodrile attacks while with Anaconda don't have any source of killing Black Caimans, they can crush yacare caiman and are capable off easily killing young jaguars.

What I mean is how they are Street level+ without any calc?

 

[H3110l12345I20]

What I mean is how they are Street level+ without any calc?

American Alligator on its profile.

Also..."The black caiman shares its habitat with at least 3 other semi-amphibious animals considered apex predators, usually able to co-exist with them by focusing on different prey and micro-habitats. These are giant otters which are social and are obligate aquatic foragers and piscivorans, green anacondas which are predators of other caiman species, alongside sizable individuals of this caiman (albeit not regularly)"

I tried to find stuff relating to the black caiman. But either the caiman and anaconda usually don't care about each other or the latter occassionally overpowers the former.

Downgrade seems promising tho since a sufficiently strong animal can injure the anaconda even under constriction. I was initially trying to find a way to make the scaling chain for the anaconda make sense lol.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Capybara have sources of biting off humans flesh, have an strong bite, can survive to many jaguar paws and crocodrile attacks while with Anaconda don't have any source of killing Black Caimans, they can crush yacare caiman and are capable off easily killing young jaguars.

I don't get how this takes away from my point that the initial claim was based on a mental shortcut that may be false.

If a guy only saw capybaras crush flies and only knows that, and assumes they're only capable of doing that, that's an example of availability herustic. If anything, this point in this reply proves my point.

Green Anacondas are up to 250 kg. And the caimans you've provided are an example like the strength gap of a fly and capybara to anacondas and yacere caiman.

Is the point you've countered representative of Capys' strength? What about using what's effectively a smaller animal to disprove "X" animal's strength? See what I mean?

 

[DarlingAurora]

American Alligator on its profile.

Also..."The black caiman shares its habitat with at least 3 other semi-amphibious animals considered apex predators, usually able to co-exist with them by focusing on different prey and micro-habitats. These are giant otters which are social and are obligate aquatic foragers and piscivorans, green anacondas which are predators of other caiman species, alongside sizable individuals of this caiman (albeit not regularly)"

• Large anacondas may occasionally take smaller caiman of this species. The jaguar (Panthera onca), being a known predator of all other caiman species, is another primary predatory threat to juvenile and subadult black caimans, with several records of predation on young black caimans and eggs. Adult black caimans have no natural predators, as is true of other similarly-sized crocodilian species given the size, weight, bite force, thick hide, and immense strength; in rare instances, they even may themselves prey upon jaguars.

It says that adults black caiman doesn't have any predator, that is because they are so robust anf thick. Anacondas only takes in smaller specimens of this species, but not on fully-grown ones.

Also, Jaguar capable of predate on subadult black caimans are more source for their tier too.

Downgrade seems promising tho since a sufficiently strong animal can injure the anaconda even under constriction. I was initially trying to find a way to make the scaling chain for the anaconda make sense lol.

The problem is that doesn't exist an profile of Black Caiman but it does of Yacare Caiman, that maybe causes confusion. Anyways, I think that due to own pressure Green Anaconda should've just Street level, without the +.

I don't get how this takes away from my point that the initial claim was based on a mental shortcut that may be false.

Which claim? I'm a bit confused here.

If a guy only saw capybaras crush flies and only knows that, and assumes they're only capable of doing that, that's an example of availability herustic. If anything, this point in this reply proves my point.

So, you mean that Anaconda crushing caimans are probably false? I mean there are footage of Yellow Anaconda struggling with constricting Caiman for 40 minutes. Do you mean that?

In the source that you put also says that Anaconda hunts on Black Caimans but small species, not adult male ones.

Green Anacondas are up to 250 kg. And the caimans you've provided are an example like the strength gap of a fly and capybara to anacondas and yacere caiman.

Here says that these are historical record and that their weight are less well studied, though reportedly range from 30 to 80 kg (66 to 176 lb) in a typical adult.

Is the point you've countered representative of Capys' strength? What about using what's effectively a smaller animal to disprove "X" animal's strength? See what I mean?

What I mean is that there no source of Green Anaconda even hunting an Black Caiman, seems exaggerated because their maximum weight is 80 kg, they can't constrict an Caiman four-times their size when they struggle with smaller specimens from the same species.

I'm not using it to disprove, but the source of black caimans are non-existent and the original is that they hunt smaller specimens and they easily hunts yacare caimans.

Green Anaconda are non-comparable to them, but they can easily kill these small caimans, I don't scale to them because this is IRL and not fiction, I just provide the original source of it.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Which claim? I'm a bit confused here.

Lol, someone's acting like they're missing the point.

The availability heruistic is a mental short cut humans make based on the availability of "X" information in their memory.

Right in your face. In from of this claim vvv

They can constrict camians of similar strength to alligators/crocs and Jaguars have short term stamina as far as I know. This statement can contradict the class 5 LS justification on its profile (i.e. scaling to Alligators of similar size).

to the claim of this vvv

Aren't the most of these this caiman? I see Anaconda crushing 6ft caimans and Yellow Anacondas struggling with adult yacare caimans tho.

Meh. The initial conclusion of my points don't really line up for average Anacondas.
Looks like the defacto scaling chain is fixed. Not to mention that defacto power scaling in IRL is technically allowed as long as its in the realm of realisticness and sheer raw power first. Besides, I thought they could overpower Black Caimans on average.

I think that the average weight should be replaced. However, them scaling to Jaguars and Caimans relies on the fact that only particularly large anacondas can prey on them. Not to mention that they only prey on animals up to 50% of its body mass at most normally.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

If we can use this would've great, because with this we can also scale the strength of female animals, but not sure what staff think about it.

If we use the new value that I get:

•  Calc: (250/75)*297.46193308 = 991.539776933 Joules or Street level.

We still have the source that they can fight big cats as H3 says, but still being more than 13 times stronger than human is pretty much impressive IMO.

The assumption on the mass divisions does have some basis. There's still a couple of factors like the evolutionary differences and size differences.

I'll mention that animals can be more stronger pound-by-pound; Leopards can weigh as half as a human and still be stronger than them on average. So this method isn't 100% reliable with these circumstances and if the mass division doesn't factor in other factors in strength, which I'll get to eventually.

 

[DarlingAurora]

Lol, someone's acting like they're missing the point.

I'm not acting, I just didn't understand..

The initial conclusion of my points don't really line up for average Anacondas.
Looks like the defacto scaling chain is fixed. Not to mention that defacto power scaling in IRL is technically allowed as long as its in the realm of realisticness and sheer raw power first. Besides, I thought they could overpower Black Caimans on average.

Oki.

I think that the average weight should be replaced. However, them scaling to Jaguars and Caimans relies on the fact that only particularly large anacondas can prey on them. Not to mention that they only prey on animals up to 50% of its body mass at most normally.

Also, many Anaconda attack in ambush.. Black Caiman crushes large anaconda size and they reaching even 100 kg is pretty much rare:

• The longest and heaviest verified specimen encountered by Dr. Jesús Antonio Rivas, who had examined more than 1,000 anacondas, was a female 5.21 m (17 ft 1 in) long and weighing 97.5 kg (214 lb 15 oz).

On average they are more than the half the size of an Pantanal Jaguar.

The assumption on the mass divisions does have some basis. There's still a couple of factors like the evolutionary differences and size differences.

I'll mention that animals can be more stronger pound-by-pound; Leopards can weigh as half as a human and still be stronger than them on average. So this method isn't 100% reliable with these circumstances and if the mass division doesn't factor in other factors in strength, which I'll get to eventually.

True & good point, it depends on robustness and skeleton-structure.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Also, many Anaconda attack in ambush.. Black Caiman crushes large anaconda size and they reaching even 100 kg is pretty much rare:

• The longest and heaviest verified specimen encountered by Dr. Jesús Antonio Rivas, who had examined more than 1,000 anacondas, was a female 5.21 m (17 ft 1 in) long and weighing 97.5 kg (214 lb 15 oz).

On average they are more than the half the size of an Pantanal Jaguar.

Sure, and most of the prey they eat can be up to half of their mass. And their standard tactics are ambushing. Since IRL profiles are supposed to be a general species, that heaviest verified specimen should be separated from their general strength.

Speaking of which, half of the species' normal confirmed weight is up to 80 kg, and half of that is 40 kg. Jaguars are 56-96 kg in most regions so they should be stronger than Green Anacondas normally. The strongest anacondas normally scale to Jaguars weaker than their typical weights, so I don't know how we should tier anacondas normally at the moment, aside from the strongest of them scaling way above the weakest Jaguars.

 

[DarlingAurora]

Sure, and most of the prey they eat can be up to half of their mass. And their standard tactics are ambushing. Since IRL profiles are supposed to be a general species, that heaviest verified specimen should be separated from their general strength.

Speaking of which, half of the species' normal confirmed weight is up to 80 kg, and half of that is 40 kg. Jaguars are 56-96 kg in most regions so they should be stronger than Green Anacondas normally. The strongest anacondas normally scale to Jaguars weaker than their typical weights, so I don't know how we should tier anacondas normally at the moment, aside from the strongest of them scaling way above the weakest Jaguars.

Yup.

Also an question, does Lion/Lioness will get back to Street level+ or not? Cause it would've affect some profiles tho.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Yup.

Also an question, does Lion/Lioness will get back to Street level+ or not? Cause it would've affect some profiles tho.

Their blows and feats are more consistantly 9-C and are weaker than Tigers, so no.

 

[DarlingAurora]

Their blows and feats are more consistantly 9-C and are weaker than Tigers, so no.

Okay, so if Lioness are back to Street level, should American Black Bear go back to Street level without the +? I think their tier was based on that and we can't give it without an calc..

Same for American Alligator

 

[H3110l12345I20]

Okay, so if Lioness are back to Street level, should American Black Bear go back to Street level without the +? I think their tier was based on that and we can't give it without an calc..

Same for American Alligator

I'm planning to try to bump them back to 9-C+ via the cattle's durability calc.

For now yes.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

bump

 

[H3110l12345I20]

bump

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I'm not acting, I just didn't understand..

Oki.

Also, many Anaconda attack in ambush.. Black Caiman crushes large anaconda size and they reaching even 100 kg is pretty much rare:

• The longest and heaviest verified specimen encountered by Dr. Jesús Antonio Rivas, who had examined more than 1,000 anacondas, was a female 5.21 m (17 ft 1 in) long and weighing 97.5 kg (214 lb 15 oz).

On average they are more than the half the size of an Pantanal Jaguar.

True & good point, it depends on robustness and skeleton-structure.

I do have an idea on how to tier normal weight anacondas, just needs feed back though.