Tonygameman
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I'll say that you can go ahead for it.
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Rayman General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Mantidil
- Start date
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Should be fine
Tonygameman
He/Him- 3,315
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Not really playable, but representation's due.
Tonygameman
He/Him- 3,315
- 2,054
Tonygameman
He/Him- 3,315
- 2,054
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Please let it be the Rayman 4 we've wanted for so long
Kazuma_kuwabara
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Kazuma_kuwabara
He/Him- 6,912
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Huh, really
A bit surprised they didn't think it was weird or the scaling was crazy high xD
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I mean, I’ve seen some people argue for multiversal Rayman on the internet like in that Crash vs Rayman blog. I’d say Vs battles wiki is relatively modest in comparison lol. At most, people on the forum questioned if Rayman can be properly scaled with how inconsistent a series it is.
But yeah I brought up vs stuff in a couple of threads there.
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Hello, I'm new here and I would really like to know one thing: Why don't they consider Rayman as universal or above here?
Kazuma_kuwabara
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Explain why we should
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I didn't say you should, I just asked why not. I don't want to force you to accept this or anything like that.
Bobsican
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Well, we can't really prove a negative, that's just a burden of proof fallacy, we'd need proof to even consider that in the first place.
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Hello. So far, we just consider Rayman’s constellation shaking feat as his most clear cut power showing. We’re open to hearing arguments for Rayman being higher if there are any.
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I don't know if this is a valid consideration, but the official Rayman 2 guide states that magic is the essential component of Rayman's universe and that lums are its primary source.
Rayman's powers are primarily based on magic and lums, and Rayman himself is made of lums.
And as you know, the lums are responsible for creating not only the universe, but also Polokus, who created space-time for the Glade.
The same Rayman 2 guide states that the Great Protoon maintains balance not only in the Glade, but in the universe as a whole (and simply destroying or stealing it can cause a great imbalance in the world). Considering that the Great Protoon and the Heart share the same function (if they aren't the same object), it's safe to assume this would affect not only the Glade but the entire universe.
You can also argue this with the following logic:
Lums created the entire universe, and the entire universe is composed of Lums, and Lums are used not only as an energy source to keep the world in balance, but also as a source of magic and can be used in combat. Therefore, you can scale Rayman to Universal in AP.
And yes, it's not specified which types of Lums were responsible for creating the universe, but The Knowledge of the World states that the Yellow Lums are "the most important" and that one day, the Lums focused their energy into thought, and their consciousness brought Polokus to life. This suggests that the Yellow Lums (which are the ones that make up the Heart) had a significant hand in Polokus's birth. In Rayman 3, Murphy states that "the Heart is where all the energy in the world comes from"— and if the Lums are counted as "energy," this implies that the Heart is fully responsible not only for the creation of Polokus, but of the entire universe. The Knowledge also mentions that "The universe is made of energy."
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I agree with Rayman being universal (and higher, actually), but honestly, I kind of lost interest in VS Battles Wiki, so I never really bothered with evidence.
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I understand.
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The second link doesn’t go to anything for me.
I always just thought the Heart of the World just affected the Glade of Dreams planet and not the rest of the universe based on how they treat it in Rayman 2. If it really says that about the Great Protoon maintaining the balance of the universe, that might make a case for the Heart of the World could be universal. That wouldn’t suggest Rayman being universal however, just that he takes his some magical energy from it to use his powers, similar to the fairies and the teensies. I don’t think it’s suggested that he takes the full power of the Heart for his attacks or that individual Yellow Lums are universal. Not to mention in the Knowledge of the World, it took “all the gods from all the worlds” to create the future for presumably the entire universe so it wouldn’t be just Polokus who is responsible for the universe.
Side note, but I do think you could make an argument for Rayman being Galaxy level or much higher based on the Mario + Rabbids games. From what I could tell, those games should be considered a one sided crossover to the Mario series (Mario being canon to Rayman, but Rayman isn’t canon to Mario), so theoretically you could scale Rayman and friends to the Mario cast. I don’t know if VS Battles wiki would accept that or not though.
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And now?
In Rayman Raving Rabbids DS it is shown that the amount of Lums that Rayman collects during his adventure influences the power of his attacks, doubling the amount of damage that his normal attacks cause (in this case each individual Lum doubles the value).
In Rayman 2 this also happens, where the Lums can make Rayman's Fist stronger.
And obviously, Rayman collects all the Lums at the end of his journey, so this should make him much stronger.
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I don't know how to link screenshots, but there's a quote in The Art of Rayman Origins (which you can find on the RayWiki) that suggests otherwise:
"The Lums shone more brightly and danced more merrily as the Heart of the World pulsed out the primordial rhythms of the Cosmos." I understand it's somewhat vague as to what that means, but it does confirm the Heart of the World has the capability to affect the universe outside of the Glade of Dreams. Also in the Rayman Origins manual, it's stated that the nightmares are a menace to the universe.
One more thing. Andre's original plan in Rayman 3 was to use the Heart of the World to reproduce and build up the army of Hoodlums before teaming up with Reflux. And before the final battle with Rayman, Andre mentions that he'll be able to reproduce infinitely via the scepter's energy. This should imply that the power of the Leptys should be at least be comparable (if not greater) to the Heart of the World's energy given that Andre had his sights on both.
With the Heart of the World having universal power, that means Rayman would upscale.
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And on a semi-unrelated note, do you think the Granny from Rayman Origins shaking the Snoring Tree and the surrounding jungle would make for a good Lifting Strength feat? She's definitely affecting the entire jungle too since we see leaves falling from trees in the foreground.
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Works now. Haven’t seen that before. I guess that’s the French guide?
While that does show Rayman’s power increases from grabbing Lums, that may just mean his power increases from Solar System level to Multi Solar System level. Side note, but interestingly enough the gods of Rayman’s universe also may increase in power from Lums based on the lore in this minigame.
This is a good point. Not sure if I saw that quote
You might have a point. I’m not sure if Rayman should upscale though since Rayman didn’t fight Leptys himself, just shot at his scepter that Reflux was gaining power from.
Would that be a lifting strength feat? But yeah regardless that’s a pretty good feat. Nice find.
Btw @SonicoAnima did you help with the Reimu vs Rayman video? I saw it was on your YouTube channel.
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Reflux has absorbed the Leptys' power, so both he and Rayman must scale to it.
Yeah
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Is it okay if I make a CRT of this?
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Does Leptys give Reflux all of his power or a portion? It might be a similar case of Polokus giving Rayman power at the end of Rayman 2.
Nice, that was a cool animation.
Feel free to if you want. I’d be interested to hear people’s opinions on it.
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Apparently it was all the power, but even if it was a small portion, it would still be valid because even that small portion of the leptys' power would be comparable (or even superior) to the energy of the Heart of the World.
Thanks!
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Here it is. And also, the Rayman Origins manual uses both 'world' and 'universe' when describing the effect the nightmares have, meaning the two terms should be treated similarly. I bring this up because in Rayman 3, the doctors say the world will "go up in smoke" aka another term for destroy. One other doctor also says that all would be lost, further suggesting a complete destruction of the Rayman cosmology.
While he doesn't fight the Leptys himself, it's made clear that Reflux has completely absorbed its power, given his different appearance in the first phase. And Rayman only resorts to attacking the scepter when Reflux mutates in the second stage and onwards. But since Rayman can take numerous hits from him and the scepter's energy anyways, he'd still scale to universal power.
In any case, I was suggesting that Rayman would potentially upscale the Heart of the World's power, not the Leptys.
I would consider it a lifting strength feat because the granny's moreso ramming the tree with a broom than just full-on striking as well as the fact that she's only using her arms to do so. Granted, it's up for debate, but I'd argued it could be used for lifting strength.
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Since both Rayman 2 and Rayman Origins support "world = universe", that likely means this refers to the gods creating time for multiple universes.
Another thing I wanted to mention is the Teensies being confirmed to have created the Hall of Doors in Rayman 2, a realm that contains a starry sky, a Multi-Solar System feat. The Teensie Highways in Rayman 3, likely having been created by the Teensies too as they share the same role as the Hall of Doors, have a similar, if not much greater scope in size.
Teensie Highways are shown to have starry skies numerous times, making them 4-A at least. But there is one minigame that suggests it's much bigger in size: Mad Trax, where Rayman races along a cosmic raceway. I believe the level in the minigame is part of the Teensie Highways since all the minigames in Rayman 3 are based on locations from the game, and the Teensie Highways are the only areas that fit the "cosmic raceway" theme.
In Mad Trax, you could see moons, asteroids, stars, and the minimap shows there are multiple galaxies. Based on all this, I think it's fair to say the Teensie Highways are universal in size. So the Teensies themselves would scale to 3-A/Low 2-C for creating the Teensie Highways and Reflux would massively upscale via having the power to destroy everything.
(Side note, Rayman being able to travel through the Teensie Highways in a little over a minute would be a great MFTL+ speed feat)
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I’d have to look into that some more.
I took the Teensie Highways to be wormholes that Polokus created and that the Teensies can access through portals aka “The Hall of Doors”. It seems to imply this in the Knowledge of the World: “Polokus then created the Teensies. Their role is to unveil all the roads in the world. They know every secret passage and can lead you to the Hall of Doors, where all paths eventually come together.”
Also worth noting the highway has time traveling properties since they apparently show images of Rayman 1 in the background. As to whether it would be a MFTL+ speed feat or would scale to anyone else, maybe so but I’d have to look into it more.
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The Sanctuary of Water and Ice also has a starry sky.
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The manual outright states the Teensies created the Hall of Doors. Them both creating and unveiling the Hall of Doors aren't mutually exclusive, especially considering that the Hall of Doors are supposed to be secret, and they're only allowing certain individuals to enter (i.e. Rayman).
But either way, if you disagree that the Teensies created it, you could still scale it to Reflux via threatening to destroy the world.
If anything, that would just imply the Teensie Highways are Low 2-C.
It should be considering Rayman flies past those stars in seconds. I'd say it scales to reaction speed considering Rayman has to react to pits and jump to other rails while moving at that speed.
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This might be a fair point. For some reason I was under the impression that the “Hall of Doors” were just the portals themselves and the passageways were something separate
Maybe. I’d like to hear others opinions if possible.
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Unfortunately this would fall under Striking Strength and we can't derive LS off that iirc
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This matchup needs two more votes in case anyone is interested.
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