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Rakudai Ikki LS downgrade and desperado stuff

I mean, you should ask and i will try to explain. Because if everyone does the "idk enough about the power" no CRT ever would go through unless there are other knowledgeable members.
 
If the fear and paralysis are literally just people freezing up due to them seeing their death, then no, I disagree with applying them as full on powers. You can mention that it gives the vision of death, but the other stuff completely depends on who it is used against. There are plenty people who wouldn't bat an eye, or would react in one way or another, based on such a thing.

Death, too, I don't think is applicable. An ability causing death isn't death manipulation. Everything with the purpose of killing others would be in that case. Death manip should just be something that applies death itself, not death being an aftereffect.


That quote you gave wasn't really good one for what you're trying to say. I'd just assume that, like their profiles claim, they are amplifying their power beyond what is possible. It's them making themselves stronger, not making the enemy more vulnerable. Which might be wrong, but that's what I'd assume based on those quotes.
 
I agree on fear and paralysis although i've used it like that (not true fear hax) in vs threads already, i don't mind removing them and adding it just as a long explanation on Fate/Causality.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
That quote you gave wasn't really good one for what you're trying to say. I'd just assume that, like their profiles claim, they are amplifying their power beyond what is possible. It's them making themselves stronger, not making the enemy more vulnerable. Which might be wrong, but that's what I'd assume based on those quotes.
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Actually not really. It's not about getting physically stronger, it's about interfering with causality/fate. Which is what Ikki did. Getting stronger due to desperado awakening happens over time (it basically removes your limit so eventually you can train and increase that). However as is the case with Ikki, he just "burns the pages where he was destined to lose", and the case with Stella vs Xiaoli, after awakening she wins even though there was no possibility where she won in that fight.

There is also another scene where Stella just grabs a dude's spear who had a durability negating effect because:
With a causal ability, he is able to negate the power of Stella."Irrelevant…! You will not try, you will not recognize ...! ” Stella remembered. As faced with the youngest Desperate on Edelberg. Taote Fu Xiaoli. Stella was a strong fighter. Everyone knew that. But the enemy ... in ordinary battles under ordinary conditions, out of ten battles, Stella would lose ten times. After all, the difference between her strength and the strength of the opponent was enormous. Stella admitted this fact without any questions. But still ... she won that mortal battle. Because the Desperate are able to redraw their fate of their own free will. In other words, whoever first takes the initiative and intervenes in fate will win. The power of fate, capable of crushing all the obstacles on the way. It sounds dangerous. I can stop you. After all, your power of fate, Johan-nii, is insignificant. - What…! She o-stopped! The Crimson Princess stopped the Golden Chariot, which has a causal “road” ability that crushes everything in its path! And with your bare hands!

because of whatever fate stuff. So no, it's not just getting stronger, cus the whole point of desperados is fate and causality hax.
 
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Can you explain what type of people it can't originally kill it would be able to, what do you think is the limit of this Fate Manipulation? What characters Ikki and the rest couldn't kill before do you think they can beat in Versus with this power?
 
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Well, i guess regeneration, NEP (if we assume NEP people to have fate), these kind of stuff.

Ofc off limits would be any form of smurf immortality (or any type 8 i guess too), abstract existence, stuff like that.
 
No, I definitly would say that both type 1 and obviously type 2 exclude fate unless the verse specifies otherwise. Type 1 is being something that can be conceptualized as an idea (say, if someone wrote "a triangle with four sides"), but that doesn't actually exist in reality. Fate would not include such a being (unless, again, the verse specifies so, because verse-rules>logic).

A type 2 is obvious.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
No, I definitly would say that both type 1 and obviously type 2 exclude fate unless the verse specifies otherwise. Type 1 is being something that can be conceptualized as an idea (say, if someone wrote "a triangle with four sides"), but that doesn't actually exist in reality. Fate would not include such a being (unless, again, the verse specifies so, because verse-rules>logic).
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Hmm, why would fate exclude those though? And i don't think type 1 is what you mentioned. It feels like it's bordering on type 2. But a being that although doesn't exist in a conventional sense, it should still have a destiny/is bound to do certain things. I agree with type 2, but type 1 feels like it should be on the NEP's side to prove that it lacks fate rather than the other way around.
 
Because something that has not, does not and will never be part of reality would not be factored into a predetermined outcome. Fate would fall into "metaphysical world", which NEP characters aren't a part of. Again, a four squared triangle has no fate, because it just isn't something that would be relevant to reality and its outcome.
 
It... would, though. An object that exists has a beginning and an ending, so a world with fate can say what the ending is.

But sure, let's go with a being. A cold blooded egg laying mammal, or a non-carbon based human. Neither has a fate, because they don't end up anywhere.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
A cold blooded egg laying mammal, or a non-carbon based human. Neither has a fate, because they don't end up anywhere.
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Except, that changes if such a being can affect reality, which is the case with most non-existent beings. They do have a beginning (as most non-existent beings i can think of aren't older than creation), they do affect reality, they act, they choose between options, and within the context of the verse may or maynot even have an ending.

An egg laying mammal or a non-carbon based human are incapable of affecting reality, such a thing cannot be said for most if not all, non existent beings we have here though.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Except, that changes if such a being can affect reality, which is the case with most non-existent beings. They do have a beginning (as most non-existent beings i can think of aren't older than creation), they do affect reality, they act, they choose between options, and within the context of the verse may or maynot even have an ending.

An egg laying mammal or a non-carbon based human are incapable of affecting reality, such a thing cannot be said for most if not all, non existent beings we have here though.
Click to expand...
Yes, nonexistent physiology is by definition self-contradictory. I know, as does everyone else. The whole idea of something with no matter and no metaphysical make up, being either an unreal concept (type 1) or a primordial void (type 2) and still being able to punch others is dumb, hence why verse>logic.

Nonxistent Physiology shouldn't be able to affect reality, that's the point of "lack of any conventional existence". But much like how things can move faster than light and still claim that kinetic energy works through speed and weight, or how a character can be claimed to be immensely charismatic while having all of the drive of Katniss Everdeen and the willpower of Shinji Ikari, stories are just filled with nonsense like that.
 
I still don't see your point though.

If something is light speed but doesn't have infinite energy, we say "it doesn't because it doesn't fulfill the requirements for it".
If something is shown as capable of affecting reality despite real life logic saying "it shouldn't", then we simply say "it doesn't fulfill the requirements to be a type 1 NEP without fate, therefore he has fate". Verse > Logic, which is why a non existent that can affect reality is a thing, but such a being would have a fate, because it is a part of reality and has all of the requirements you need to have to have fate. Which is why the verse of the NEP needs to prove that "despite being able to affect and interact with reality their fate doesn't exist" or sth along those lines, otherwise there is nothing to say that their fate doesn't exist.
 
Simply put, the ability is defined as paradoxical by the power profile itself. No character with NEP works in a non-contradictory way.

Fate however, is definitly tied to the world, and would count as part of a metaphysical world. While of course the verse can claim otherwise, for something to have a fate, it needs to exist, else it would not be able to act. So, by extension, something that doesn't exist cannot be fated to do anything.

The fact that they do something is why its called "paradoxical".
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
While of course the verse can claim otherwise, for something to have a fate, it needs to exist, else it would not be able to act.
Click to expand...
For something to have a fate it would need to be capable of acting. Non-existent things shouldn't be able to act, but they do. And since they do they do have fate. So it being non-existent is a non factor when as i said there is absolutely no reason for it to lack fate. It has all the requirements to have a fate.

It shouldn't be able to act? But it does.
It shouldn't be able to interact with reality? But it does.

These 2 factors disqualify it from "doesn't have a fate", similar to being fast but not strong disqualify you from KE calcs from example. So why are you giving such a being the benefit of a "true non-existent" (the type that can't do any of the above), when it clearly functions differently and is pretty much the same only in name?
 
It can also think, and move from one place to another, any yet they have no minds or souls, nor bodies to move.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
It can also think, and move from one place to another, any yet they have no minds or souls, nor bodies to move.
Click to expand...
Which disqualifies them from the supposed immunity to mind manip? What you're doing would be similar to giving it the benefits of not having a mind/consciousness and a soul (immunity to both) to every NEP, despite them clearly contradicting such things. Which we, needless to say, do not do.

We do not give them resistances for those, so why would we give them the "has no fate" part? Despite it being a similar situation.
 
...Literally all NEP characters are sentient, or at the very least beings able to act and react. That is what makes them characters.

What you have a problem with is the very ability. And yes, its stupid, and dumb, and self-contradictory, but it is undoubtedly a thing that exists and grants the abilities listed. If you wish to change its requirements or wording, that's fine, but as it is a type 1 NEP cannot be part of the physical or the metaphyiscal, which fate is a part of.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
NEP as we define it by the real life logic? Yeah it's not. NEP as we commonly see in fiction? It definitely is.
Click to expand...
As we define it by the page describing the power on our wiki, it is what I said. If you disagree with a character having it applied that way, then that's a problem with the character.
 
Not really. If our page defines type 1 as what we described right now (not part of reality and fate, but still capable of affecting reality, acting etc), that's a problem with the definition. And i don't believe our page says that type 1 has any form of resistance to fate by default, and there is honestly no reason to say you can have that if you can act and choose.
 
Also, can we not have a discussion about NPE here? That has nothing to do with Rakudai and should better be handled on its thread.
 
Ionliosite said:
That has nothing to do with Rakudai and should better be handled on its thread.
Click to expand...
Yeah probably. I may make a thread about it after this. Anyway Risci, we'll solve the NEP thing another time. Other than that, do you agree with the OP?

Schnee_One said:
What did you quote? What were you responding to?
Click to expand...
You can actually check what he was quoting by pressing the little arrow pointing upwards right next to your name or on your name on the thing he quoted.
 
Well I don't see how its false, just because you didn't disagree doesn't mean you agree
 
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Ionliosite said:
You gotta give reasons.
Click to expand...
Oh right. Give me a minute to bs some reasons

...

Power boost disguised as flowery language. Feats can be attributed to Desperado being like their super saiyan forms, in that they just activate the forms and overpower the Adamantine armor for Ikki and the big dude for Stella. Stella’s thing doesn’t sound viable to begin with given I doubt even without desperado, she had a nonzero chance of winning.
 
I never said you didn’t. I said, that because people don’t disagree doesn’t mean they agree, in response to Fire.

You said that was false, I pointed out why it wasn’t
 
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