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Rakudai Ikki LS downgrade and desperado stuff

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This one isn't as big as the other CRT's but still should be pretty important. There are 2 main things here:

Ikki LS Downgrade
I am not sure why Ikki scales to Stella in LS.

Likely Class 25 in Base (Comparable to Stella), likely Class K in Ittou Shura (At least 10 times stronger than base), likely Class M in Ittou Rassetsu (At least 200 times stronger than base) | Class M in Base and Ittou Shura (Far stronger than before), likely Class G in Ittou Rasetsu (200 times stronger than in base) | Class M in Base and Ittou Shura (Far stronger than before), likely Class G in Ittou Rasetsu (600 times stronger than in base) | Unknown | Class M in Base and Ittou Shura (Far stronger than before), likely Class G in Ittou Rasetsu (600 times stronger than in base)

And by that i mean i have 0 idea. He has some feats like beating Stella's father in arm wrestling without even trying and other minor stuff like that, but he doesn't scale in any way to the top feats of the verse. So while i am unsure on where he should be placed. I'd say putting him at "superhuman" seems fair until I or other people find some impressive lifting feat or reason to scale to Stella for Ikki.

Desperado
Right now we treat the fate hax creating death of desperados as NLF if the desperado character is incapable of landing a killing blow on an enemy. However this is not the case. In the battle against Iris, this is stated:

It's not so easy to cut it. When Ikki hits her, his katana must slow down. And that will be enough. If Ikki's blade slows even for a split second, Iris will smash his head with her powerful halberd blow.

In other words, breaking orichalcos isn't cutting butter to Ikki, so Ikki wouldn't have been able to destroy orichalcos and kill iris before Iris killed him. However when he imbued it with desperado hax, this happened:

The true nature of the " Oikage " technique , which cut its fate.
It was only at the last moment that Iris noticed how the blade of the Intetsu , as if through a haze, passed through her Orichalcus armor and pierced deeply into her body.

The Orichalcus armor , cut by Ikki's causal desire, cracked and shattered into black dust.

So even when Ikki shouldn't have been able to pull it off, he pulled it off with the fate hax. Another blatant case i can mention is this:

"Irrelevant…! You will not try, you will not recognize ...! ” Stella remembered. As faced with the youngest Desperate on Edelberg. Taote Fu Xiaoli. Stella was a strong fighter. Everyone knew that. But the enemy ... in ordinary battles under ordinary conditions, out of ten battles, Stella would lose ten times. After all, the difference between her strength and the strength of the opponent was enormous. Stella admitted this fact without any questions. But still ... she won that mortal battle. Because the Desperate are able to redraw their fate of their own free will. In other words, whoever first takes the initiative and intervenes in fate will win. The power of fate, capable of crushing all the obstacles on the way.

Narration outright states that there was no chance/future where Stella would win against Xiaoli, but as soon as she awakens as a desperado she is allowed to redraw fate she was capable of creating a future where she wins even if it doesn't exist/it's not possible.

Other cases i could mention is, we know that the way you die from desperado's bloodlust is the same way you see yourself dying, which is entirely dependent on your own view of death (how you imagine death to be like). Further proven by the fact that example Edel vs Stella (edel had no ability to cut her opponent from outside of range with pure raw causality), Tendou vs Touka (Tendou had no abilities to crucify Touka, nullify powers or create clones). So materialization of an opponent's "fate of death" is the key factor here, so even without the feats i mentioned, logically speaking, this is not dependent on the capability of the desperado to end his opponent without desperado hax.
 
I can easily think of 5 or 6 characters that have too many immortalities to think anything in their verse can kill them, and literally anyone with Low, Mid or High Godly in verses without a way to bypass those
 
literally anyone with Low, Mid or High Godly
Why's that?

I can easily think of 5 or 6 characters that have too many immortalities to think anything in their verse can kill them
These guys would actually be an exception. But not if they actually die in verse. (example the bad guy doesn't think anything can kill him, but ends up dying either way at the end, that doesn't count for obvious reasons).
 
Why's that?


These guys would actually be an exception. But not if they actually die in verse. (example the bad guy doesn't think anything can kill him, but ends up dying either way at the end, that doesn't count for obvious reasons).
I think we normally take the bad guy before he is dead, so nothing would have killed him so far.
 
I still don’t get the fate thing enough to agree, it’s so damn confusing

The first seems fine though
 
I am still very iffy on the Fate stuff myself, considering I believe it should still only effect what it has been shown to effect as these feats are still dealing with physical means of dealing damage to physical beings. And the two last examples you showed seemed to simply be the death visions. Can you show me people actually dying from these visions?

First part is fine.
 
I am still very iffy on the Fate stuff myself, considering I believe it should still only effect what it has been shown to effect as these feats are still dealing with physical means of dealing damage to physical beings.
This caused death to beings that they shouldn't have been able to kill otherwise though, so i don't get your point.

And the two last examples you showed seemed to simply be the death visions. Can you show me people actually dying from these visions?
You don't die from the visions, the visions are showing you the way you will die if you challenge the desperado (idk if you read the quotes fully but it's said there). And there are 2 cases of this happening Edel vs Stella (although Edel held back cus she didn't want to kill stella) and Orleus vs the army (the army died the instant they challenged orleus from the desperado thing, i believe the scan of this is also in the op, don't remember).
 
This caused death to beings that they shouldn't have been able to kill otherwise though, so i don't get your point.
My point is that we should only go by what is shown to be killed by it. If she's never killed an Abstract or character with NEP before with it, she shouldn't assume to be able to kill them with Desperado hax as this can easily go downhill.
 
You don't die from the visions, the visions are showing you the way you will die if you challenge the desperado (idk if you read the quotes fully but it's said there). And there are 2 cases of this happening Edel vs Stella (although Edel held back cus she didn't want to kill stella) and Orleus vs the army (the army died the instant they challenged orleus from the desperado thing, i believe the scan of this is also in the op, don't remember).
Might really want to link that feat from the army since what you've shown doesn't really seem to be showing any form of Death Manipulation.
 
If she's never killed an Abstract or character with NEP before with it, she shouldn't assume to be able to kill them with Desperado hax as this can easily go downhill.
Hmm, NEP depends on the type tbh. Since this is causality we're talking about and causality should affect NEP too. Abstract though yeah, it won't touch those.

Might really want to link that feat from the army since what you've shown doesn't really seem to be showing any form of Death Manipulation.
I thought i had put it in the op, my bad:

Stella tried desperately to resist the threads that dug hard into her neck. But the enemy entangled her whole body, and she could not reach her neck with her hands.
- Stella! Wait, we'll help you now! - shouted the troops of Vermilion and the knight-magicians of the League .
They ran straight to her in unison.
But,

  • Too loud.
  • GRARGHXXXXXX !!!!
All the help, desperately running to help, fell to the ground. All their bodies were finely chopped to pieces.
To those who saw this terrible sight, it might seem that Or-Goul cut them with steel threads ... but this is not true.
He used the gravitational pull of the Desperate fate . Just like Edelweiss at the top of Edelberg.
After the " Play of the Dead " ability was activated , Or-Goul's strength changed. He has become much stronger than Stella.
Not one simple person could defeat the Desperate . By challenging him, they automatically signed up for their death.

If you are unable to take the next step and overcome your destiny, then it is better to remain standing still.
 
I am unsure if we can assume that someone who doesn't exist is effected by Fate Hax without feats. I don't know how we treat it due to Fate hax and NEP being what they are.
 
From my knowledge, it's usually, you have to prove to be able to effect NEP and not the otherway around. I may be wrong though. But most stuff is usually, "got feats of them harming NEP or something superior with their abilities?".
 
I mean this would most likely require a thread on its own then. Cus if we go like that NEP is by default resistant to all abilities unless proven otherwise which seems like we're taking huge leaps tbh.

But eh either way, not sth to discuss here i guess. Is this fine then?
 
Hmm, definitely causality right there but I wouldn't call it death manipulation. It's very clearly shown that they're physically killed instead of dying.

And I think it fair to be able to manipulate the fate of something with NEP just because it doesn't actually require for you to directly interact with said being.
 
Hmm, definitely causality right there but I wouldn't call it death manipulation. It's very clearly shown that they're physically killed instead of dying.
I mean idk if you can call "being cut by causality" physical. But the death manip is just a way to imply the application of fate/causality either way so i don't think there's any problem with it.
 
Being cut by causality caused them all to be chopped up into pieces, physically cutting them up. That's what I meant. And my issue with adding death manipulation on top of it is that it's not actually doing something like manipulating death. Someone with resistance to death manipulation shouldn't be able to resist what's going on here, what they need to resist is either fate manipulation or causality manipulation. Adding an extra ability on top of that is just inflating the power.
 
I mean it's just to imply the application. Cus it's "materializing your image of death".

And honestly the real reason i don't wanna remove it is cus i'd have to go and remove that from all the desperado pages
 
Death manipulation isn't an application of the ability though, someone dying is just a result.

If you need help with it all you need to do is ask.
 
If you need help with it all you need to do is ask.
Then so i shall. Im fine with removing:

Fear, Death, Willpower, perception and paralysis.

These are all results of the fate hax instead of their own abilities. So if we're gonna keep only the main one and remove the application then they should go.
 
I would actually say that Fear, Willpower, Perception, and Paralysis can stay. My point isn't that applications of the abilities should be removed, but that the ability itself doesn't actually manipulate death. It just kills you.

Like Death Manipulation should be when someone manipulates death itself, which is not what's being shown in the instance you mentioned above or any of the others you shared it seems.

If the Desperado's are actually manipulation their targets Willpower, Fear, Perception and causing Paralysis then those should be fine to stay since they're actual applications of the power.
 
I mean those are all naturally induced. It's just seeing your own death that can have heavy effects on you, some people get scared to the point of being unable to move, being unable to breathe, get dizzy etc. But it's not a direct manipulation.
 
Hmm, might need someone else to determine whether or not those can stay then. I'm not too sure myself.
 
Hmm, might need someone else to determine whether or not those can stay then. I'm not too sure myself.
I think they should go, since someone wouldn't need resistance to them if their cause (fate hax) wasn't to take effect, i think Toaru has examples of that in some profiles, but i am unsure.
 
They should just be linked in the justification for Fatehax, or do like I did with Fugil's Lawhax, where like 90% of his hax are just applications of it.
 
Im not even sure if it has disagreements though. Cus no one brought up any true problems with it.

Also the "is this fine then?" is just a way to bait ppl into commenting again.
 
How is that an agreement? You know better then to add an ability with no one agreeing with it being fine.
 
Never said it has agreements, i just said it had no disagreements. To quote the "disagreements":

I still don’t get the fate thing enough to agree, it’s so damn confusing

If she's never killed an Abstract or character with NEP before with it, she shouldn't assume to be able to kill them with Desperado hax as this can easily go downhill.
And dragon i am unsure on what Dragon's stance is. He had issues with it affecting AE and NEP. But i never argued for AE and NEP needs a thread on its own. So i am unsure if he agrees or disagrees.
And I think it fair to be able to manipulate the fate of something with NEP just because it doesn't actually require for you to directly interact with said being.
Im not sure on Duedate's stance, but he seems to agree (i think?). Maybe he can clarify if im making a misjudgement here.
 
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