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Also apparently according to the script Spidey was rapidly returning back to his normal power level as rage almost consumed him.
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Raimi Green Goblin Scaling Downgrade
- Thread starter sanicspood
- Start date
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Eh, not exactly, the script says that he would've been beaten to a bloody pulp if he didn't use Norman as a card to save his own bacon.
AKA, he used a cheap shot against Tobey. AGAIN.
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That's what I just said lmao. I said that he would've gotten obliterated had he not used the Norman card.
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No, like, Gobby was genuinely threatened by Tobey whereas he just laughed at the idea of Tom killing him, and that against Tobey he stood no hope without using Norman as bait.
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He was more excited that Tom was going in no morals. He stood no chance against him either.
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Plus it's more consistent with the three Spideys being portrayed as equals.
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Tom still needed more hits to pin him down tho. A Power Bomb wasn't enough to force back old Norman, whereas 5 punches to the face from Tobey effectively sealed the deal.
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Five face punches when he wasn't dazed as all hell. Meanwhile MCU Peter got to the point of punching him enough times to put him in a haze and not giving Goblin a chance to say anything. Same beatdown except not interrupted.
Baken384
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plus norman had his goblin mask on, aka extra protection
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I personally don’t see this as a fair point. Especially since MCU Peter kept pulling Norman back up to land more attacks. The beatdown in NWH is portrayed more as a rageful overkill. Definitely not the same situation as SM1’s fight, though both situations do mirror how both Peters are superior to the Goblin if they’re taking things seriously. I'm sure if Goblin didn't use his personal connection to Parker in SM1, the beatdown would've looked quite similar to MCU Peter's barrage. Also worth noting that, yes, Goblin did see Raimi Spider-Man as a threat. But he wasn't laughing off MCU Spider-Man's attempts at fighting. He just knew he wasn't going to try killing him. In the final NWH battle...the attacks delivered aren't so funny for him
The points I’ve brought up across threads are essentially still my thoughts on the matter. The AP really isn’t different and we can safely say no Spider-Man is physically above the other in Base
I know it’s kind of a given that VS debaters need to over analyze things, but I think the Spider-Man debate is a stretch. Claiming that Goblin is superior to MCU Spider-Man contradicts two statements, the narrative of NWH, and even foreshadowing by TASM Peter regarding his speech. For all intensive purposes, Raimi and MCU Peter are in fact stronger than Goblin
As for the New Goblin thing this thread is about, where are people standing on that?
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I was gonna conclude to make Goblin weaker than but relative to Tom, and considerably weaker than Tobey (Though still being able to make him bleed. Both Tobey's peak and Harry's massively upscale above the Pumpkin bomb, since they both took the blast to their face while already weakened and nowhere near their full power, same goes for Tom).
New Goblin would basically be a step up the chain since he took the serum's full brunt. Gobby would now instead of scaling to Tobey, scale to be relative to his son as well, since his procedure stopped mid-way.
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I still think it's much more consistent that the Spider-Men are equal given their showings against Lizard, Electro, etc. (such as TASM Peter being able to harm Lizard or MCU Peter stunning Lizard twice)
Goblin is weaker to Raimi and MCU Spidey by the same amount and the differences in battle mostly come down to the situations and experience with Norman
Goblin is weaker to Raimi and MCU Spidey by the same amount and the differences in battle mostly come down to the situations and experience with Norman
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- Thread starter
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both those times iirc tom hit the lizard off guard or he wasn't even trying to fight him, Tobey's causal blows kept on sending the lizard flying of his feet and Andrew easily got the lizard off of him just by using slightly more power, meanwhile, tom literally got buried into the ground by lizard casually getting him off him + not even going for tom in the first place
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Raimi Peter also harmed Lizard.
And about that second part, yeah. For Raimi Peter, it was him turning the tides against Goblin, but he wasn't going into the fight rageful from the beginning, and also he has a connection to Norman so he's willing to compromise. Meanwhile, MCU Peter was going in morals off from the start because of what Goblin did to him during their first fight. Of course he's gonna go overkill out of rage.
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A) Claiming Lizard wasn't trying is a stretch. He wanted to attain the magical box and its not as if MCU Peter "suckerpunching" Lizard was just a lucky stun for him
B) Raimi Peter's blows weren't always sending Lizard flying. In fact, his first head stomps weren't enough to shake Lizard off of him
C) MCU Peter got pushed onto the ground for like, one second. It wasn't a long moment of struggling
Your reasonings feel far more like downplay
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I agree with the New Goblin stuff btw. He got more of the serum, and it makes sense that it's an improved version since Harry didn't go unconscious.
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1. What I meant was that he wasn't trying to kill tom there he was literally trying to kill his friends and get the box yea, that's where the first big stagger tom did to him, the second time tom came flying out of nowhere and made lizard fall over barely.
2. yes they were, that crane fight you can see Tobey do a flip kick causing the lizard to tip over, and then again when the crane was falling over
3. the fact that he couldn't even properly push back the lizard and was forcefully pushed to the ground as tom was trying to stop him when literally Andrew did in a far more awkward position shows something, doesn't it?
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3. It wasn't a grapple, it was Lizard trying to get Tom off of him since he was going for the box in the first place. Given how the three Spideys are very much portrayed as equals, it's more reasonable to assume that Tom could do the same thing Andrew did to Lizard had the latter actually been focused on him.
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when did I say he was grappling him though-
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1. Barely fall over? He sends him into some metal and has enough time to call over to MJ and then have Connors' cure thrown to him to catch
2. That's one of Raimi Peter's blows. Not all of them. Ergo, he didn't keep on sending him flying with all of his attacks
3. Couldn't properly push him back? Do you remember the scene? MCU Peter is heading for him, Connors briefly gets him out of the way, and keeps running for the box. Of course he didn't push him back, by the time he would get a chance, he wasn't being held onto anymore
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Also if we really wanna argue who took what then MCU Peter is the only one of the three that took a unibeam from the same opponent they were all simultaneously fighting and then walked it off OMEGALUL
yes i know it's an outlier this is a joke
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My point is, no Spidey is portrayed as any physically stronger than the other two.
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- Thread starter
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1. eh ok fair enough but that still doesn't completely attack my main point
2. well yea I didn't literally mean every single attack Tobey landed on lizard sent him flying, just the fight on the crane it did
3. what I mean is he couldn't properly stop him like he was trying to do, he kept on getting overpowered which causes him to literally get buried in metal. meanwhile, Andrew ****** backflips causing the lizard to get off him completely and he was literally getting choked by him
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this is derail anyways so ima stop arguing this
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Are we all in agreement about the proposed revisions for the Goblins?
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1. I believe it does as you were essentially saying MCU Peter shouldn't scale to Lizard when he definitely does
3. That really isn't a fair measurement of power. While Lizard is superior to the Spider-Men in LS (not AP), asking why he couldn't counter is like if I were pushed into a wall, the person who did it ran away as they did it, and then I was told "You couldn't counter well, so you're pretty much weaker than that guy". Also, TASM Peter didn't backflip out of there instantly either. Comparing these two moments makes no sense
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I agree that New Goblin is a step above Green Goblin physically if that's the conclusion here
Hellbeast
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I wouldn't say no chance
Yes hes overwhelmed but he's able to harm him with his blades and dodge strikes so he's weaker but relatvie with Tobey being much stronger then both
So New Goblin could have
"Superior to his father and was able to battle Spider-Man" as New Goblin's AP
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Raimi Spider-Man being much stronger still doesn't make sense as he was equal with MCU and TASM. Goblin can still harm Raimi Peter too. I get what you're saying about the "no chance" part though. The
This makes sense
Hellbeast
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I kind of disagree
Even comparing his performance against Goblin and Ock with Tom's own I think it's fairly clear Tobey is somewhat superior and that's ignoring other stuff like how that was when he was much younger and supplementary material claims Tobey grew in power over time
Also, was Goblin just accessing half the serum? If so that could help us determine just what the gap is between the two
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A) Raimi Peter having a "better performance" is based on how MCU Peter wasn't going all out during the apartment. Not a very telling point
B) Raimi Peter growing in power is never a thing. Its said that he's gotten better at using his abilities (aka has become better as Spider-Man), but its not like he's DBZing his way through the trilogy
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No, nothing like that is stated, just that the serum procedure stopped halfway, not that he took only half the amount of the full dosage.
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Piercing damage. Also in the Tobey's case Goblin wasn't able to dodge because he was being held against a wall kekw
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This. It's not linear.
Also assuming it was halfway is arbitrary. We don't know how much longer the procedure had to go on for.
Hellbeast
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Neither was Tobey
Goblin for example jumped him during his heroics and never actually fights a fresh Tobey since he was absolutely fatigued just before their final fight and that's not getting into Ock
There's also statements Goblin would have been decapacitated by Tobey's web blasts if not for his helmet in the novel but that could ben hyperbolic.
Huh I recall one; I'll take a look
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Wouldn't need to touch on Ock given the guy's superior to Raimi Peter
The first part is false. Goblin attacked on the festival and Spider-Man came in to stop him. The burning building fight was in fact during his heroics, but its not as if this was after Raimi Peter was doing several hours of villain fighting or lifting right before the fight
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Point is, the Spideys are equal.
Will we please focus on the topic at hand?
Will we please focus on the topic at hand?
Hellbeast
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Even if you want to argue Ock's superiority Peter is still doing significantly better then an angered Tom Holland in combat with him and that's ignoring statements like the Novelisation
This I have to question since it's significantly better performance from Goblin then any other of their fights later in the film and any of their statements from the supplementary material. I also believe it's mentioned Tobey holds back typically in his fights so this could be why Goblin does so well here
True but it is an example where Peter wouldn't be prepared for an extended battle with an enemy, the fatigued point was referring to their final fight in the third act
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The Ock part isn’t taking into consideration what MCU Peter was juggling there. Ock scales to the Iron Spider, but to imply Raimi Peter is on that same level when he gets continuously restrained by Octavius is a stretch
I got no clue what you’re saying on the Goblin part (second paragraph). It doesn’t really counter what I’m saying though
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