Raiden/Shinnok potential upgrade

[EnnardTrap1987]

Doesn't Shinnok scale to Cetrion? (aka his sister) as Shinnok's darkness has been implied to help balance Cetrion's light. And since Fire God Liu Kang is Raiden merged with Liu Kang (Which gives Liu Kang Raiden's attributes and powers/abilities). And the fact that Raiden also scales to both Liu Kang and Shinnok; shouldn't he and Shinnok be 5-A?

Keep in mind, Raiden gave Liu Kang a "Gift" that protects him from the Hourglass' temporal powers. And this was Fire God Liu. Fire God Liu Kang has all of Raiden's powers and attributes in which he also defeated Cetrion and Kronika with said powers. Pretty sure Raiden could take Kronika and Cetrion (But FG Liu Kang would defeat them easier)

Also worth noting that Raiden once shook the earth to its core while fighting Shao Kahn in MK2 or MK3 (can't remember), and destroyed the dimensional gates which would have been Outworld's passageway to Earthrealm. (Is that canon or outlier or idk?)

 

[EnnardTrap1987]

Idk if i'm contradicting or not.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Shaking the world is Low 6-B and I don't think destroying the Dimensional Gate is a valid feat.

However, Shinnok is suppose to be Cetrion's equal so I guess he scales but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[EnnardTrap1987]

Yeah, he's supposed to be her equal. And since Raiden also scales to Shinnok (especially with their battles and stuff), pretty sure he too scales to Cetrion.

 

[Galactagod]

bump?

 

[Galactagod]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that this seems to make sense, but we might have to wait until after our forum migration is done.

 

[Maruhkati]

If this is the case, that puts both Cages in 5-A as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Is somebody willing to ask the staff members listed in the Mortal Kombat verse page to comment here?

 

[Galactagod]

I will do so.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The 5-A ratings are not only implemented weird but it's based off of a fatality. I get using it, but it shouldn't be the tier setter in my view.

Something like "Low 6-B, possibly 5-A" should be used imo. But ignoring that I can get behind Shinnok scaling.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Haven't played MK11, nor have I seen an LP of it. However, to my knowledge, Centrion is on another class over her own. She's implied to be far more powerful than either Liu Kang or Raiden, and I'm not sure about Shinnok as he is indeed stronger than Raiden due to being a Fallen Elder God. However, I'm not sure if Shinnok was implied to be Cetrion's equal similar to how the Kaioshin are not on par with the Hakaishin. Furthermore, in canon, everyone invluding Raiden and Liu Kang were fodder to her. And only Fire God Liu Kang stood a chance. Fire God Liu Kang is like the Vegito merging between the two; the two merging are far more than a double powerup.

Dark649 was knowledgeable on this topic, but he's been inactive for 6 months now.

 

[Qawsedf234]

She gets beaten, while amped, by Fire God Liu. Who right after beats her mom after she absorbed her. I think they all should be "At least Low 6-B, likely 5-A" rather than straight up 5-A. Like how we currently rate FG Liu Kang.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh yeah, Shinnok being equal to Cetrion seems legit if they're both Elder Gods. I'm fine with Qawsed's proposal.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think it's okay because they're weird cosmic opposites that maintain balance. Considering Centurion murdered the other Elder Gods by herself, the title alone doesn't mean much scaling wise (in her case).

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine then.

 

[Hellbeast1]

If I'm honest I'm not big on 5-A Cetrion

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm not either, but if the Low 6-B rating is acceptable despite coming from a non-canon ending and being magnitudes beyond everything else, I don't see why we should ignore the 5-A rating.

I just don't think it should be sole tier justification. Since its not even an ending, but a fataility animation.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we consider it as an out-of-continuity outlier?

 

[Qawsedf234]

I can't say that, since the character who preformed it is in-universe superior to all but like four people. It's just that the feat comes from an incredibly shaky source, which is why I don't like it as the sole tier justification.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, plenty of Street Fighter feats are scaled from non-canon endings which Matt and Dark649 said was okay since it was intended to give a demonstration of the character's power. And in MK's case, it's probably is canon given the existence of multiple timelines in the multiverse, but takes place in one of the alternate timelines. The Low 6-B feat is pretty concrete. The 5-A feat might be in the same boat as Zod's non-canon special attack for Injustice.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I mean, fatalities are something the characters can actually do minus the goofy one's like Melina's kiss that sucks you up or Cyrax summoning enough bombs to blow up the earth. Cetrion's doesn't seem to be treated like a goofy fatality, more like something she's actually capable of doing.

 

[Qawsedf234]

For Zod the bigger issue was that he scales to way more people and it actively contradicted the internal power level of the series. Centurion's thing has neither of those issues, which is why I didn't suggest to get rid of it.

I just don't thinking that using a fataility when a decent number are gags or make no sense, is the correct idea as the sole basis for a tier. Which is why I suggested we just do what we currently have for Fire God Liu Kang: "Low 6-B, likely 5-A".

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I'm also fine with that proposal.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@Qawsedf234

Yeah, that suggestion is fine with me.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine then.

 

[Hellbeast1]

I'm not either, but if the Low 6-B rating is acceptable despite coming from a non-canon ending and being magnitudes beyond everything else, I don't see why we should ignore the 5-A rating.

I just don't think it should be sole tier justification. Since its not even an ending, but a fataility animation.

Low 6-B is also supported by

Raiden and Shinnok plunging the world in darkness

Shinnok warping the Netherrealm

Shao Kahn draining Outworld's life force

Plus Raiden and Shao did fight canonically in MK3 I think

The fatality is just whack tho

 

[Qawsedf234]

So we all good with the following Low 6-B, likely 5-A changes being applied to the following people

• Cetrio

• Shinnok

• Kronika

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose so. You can ask other members knowledgeable about Mortal Kombat to comment here if you need more input.

 

[Maruhkati]

Total noob so I'm not sure how this works, but would this put the heroes who have canonically defeated those characters into the same tier on account of scaling? (Specifically Fire God Liu Kang, who's already there, and the Inner Power form of both Cages).

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Cages only defeated the avatars of Shinnok, not the true form. The avatars are simply 7-B.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we apply this?

 

[Maruhkati]

TBH I think a lot of what we see of reboot!Shinnok seems to contradict what's seen in Armageddon and earlier. MK11 seems to imply that that's Shinnok's actual head that gets lopped off after his defeat (e.g. the revenants behave as though it is). What's more, there isn't any direct confirmation in any cutscene that it isn't the real Shinnok. Still, we don't have direct confirmation that it *was*, either, so I'm certainly not going to press anybody on this.

Apologies if this has already been discussed.

 

[Antvasima]

So we all good with the following Low 6-B, likely 5-A changes being applied to the following people

I referred to this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think it's fine to apply what Qawsed accepted

 

[Qawsedf234]

Before I change it up, I'll confirm stuff

• Shinnok: Small Country level (Restructured the entire Netherrealm upon coming to rule. Nearly destroyed the Earth in his battle with Raide), likely Large Planet level (Stated as being the balancing force with Cetrio)

• Centrion: Small Country level normally (Superior to an unrestricted Demigod such as Shao Kah and Raide), likely up to Large Planet level with Size Manipulation (Cetrion generates this much energy by growing to a large size in her Good and Evil Fatality) | Small Country level, likely Large Planet level (Stronger than before)

• Kronika: Small Country level, likely Large Planet level (Superior to her children Cetrio and Shinnok) | At least Small Country level, likely Large Planet level (Absorbed a large but unknown amount of souls into her crown, multiplying her strength to an unknown degree) | At least Small Country level, likely Large Planet level (Was able to absorb a Corrupted Cetrio who is superior to her base form)

• Fire God Liu Kang: At least Small Country level, likely Large Planet level (Used the Jinsei that was flowing inside him to "fuel his fire" and after that, utterly destroyed the White Revenants and matched Corrupted Cetrion step for step before ultimately killing Kronika)

 

[Galactagod]

Bump.

 

[Lightning_XXI]

I was in favor to give them possibly/likely 5-A a long time ago, glad to see that more people agrees with it

This should scale to unrestricted characters only tho, besides that I agree with the upgrades

 

[Antvasima]

Qawsedf's suggestions are probably fine to use.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Agree with this