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Questioning Stands Again

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Arigarmy

Arigarmy

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I didn't think much about it back then but now I would like to bring up the validity of scaling Part 3's The World and Part 4's Killer Queen to their Part 7/8 equivalent. The "oh they're the same Stand" argument now makes very little sense to me considering the following factors:

1. Killer Queen and Killer Qw8n have obviously different abilities and powers for both their main and subStand gimmicks. They're in no ways the same Stand, and a valid argument is void for the claim that they share the same physicals. The J-Universe and SBRverse are entirely unrelated to each other despite Valentine's quote that gets spammed in a bunch of his threads.

2. Nothing visibly differentiates them that isn't their design and Diego not getting more than 5 seconds as he continually uses his variant. However, my statement before about the two separate universes is still being presented. Again, a valid argument that they share the exact same strength is void.

3. This idea was originally accepted on the old way we scaled Stands through the Stand Ranking system, which we ditched for being total bull the last year. The World and THE WORLD obviously shared the same stats, but Killer Queen and Killer Qw8n couldn't compare under the grounds of Qw8n not being given stats (but was still assumed to be the same).

Discuss.

Also unrelated but why does Funny Valentine have Non-Corporeal and Invisibility resistance as an ability that's really weird and I hadn't noticed it before until now.
 
Or maybe its just worded terribly wrong and meant to say D4C was incorporeal and invisible.
 
Stands flipflop rules because Araki is inconsistent as hell but it falls under most of its definitions of incorporeal except the final statement that "though the destruction of these bodies is of little relevance to the entity behind them" because well

Uh oh
you get the point. Most of the Stands in the series are like this. It's up for a big debate, but my focus in this thread is the shoddy scaling given.
 
There is no consistency. @Weekly

No, Astral Projection doesn't make real sense. @DMB

Depends on what you mean on invincible. @Gen

So basically since we got one going for it if we remove the scaling bits then Steel Ball Run gets knocked down to probably 9-A while JoJolion keeps being High 8-C like it has been. I don't know much about the speed department, not a lot of Stand speed feats in JoJolion, just Joshu and Yotsuyu doing stupid stuff.
 
Jojolion being downgraded quite fine.

Sbr though? .

Za warudo acts the same. Za warudo looks the same and wog explicitly had za warudo equal. Stands stats may be bullshit yeah although araki made clear the stands acted and were the same and equal on par with the alternate form.

Also the five second maximum. Yeah obviously. Dio only got the continue amp from nonhuman vampiric power and endurance. Jotaro is the exact same while onviously diego not exactly above human limits along with jotaro .

Araki was actually keeping consistency for a change and had diego (alternate and a mere human) have a five second maximum .
 
Gonna need your actual evidence for WOG claims, not even a JoJoveller interview exists for the alternate World. It's also somewhat hypocritical for you to say "were the same and equal on par with the alternate form" when you just accept KQ's fate so easily.

The differences and explanations on time stop had nothing to do with my argument, I was only saying they were the only visible differences. However, The World and THE WORLD have slightly different designs. Even now, they still have noticeable dissimilarities.
 
Yeah? Because queen showcased and acted differently obviously queen not or no longer the same at that point?. Close despite being different (transmutated explode and bubble explode and multiple sha and a lack of a blade for the victims ) .. Although ya could claim sha exactly the same maybe ?

>wog claim.

The stand stats? Araki had the stats the exact same? Probably for a reason araigamy. Ya think maybe araki was pointing out sbr and crusaders part tgree za warudo were on par and equal? The exact stats were made for a reason plus a obvious one at that . Also the only main difference ya listed has a canon explanation and thus a counterpoint the point falls flat.

Exuding the kneepads what exactly?. And that was probably only for a minor visual differentiation for araki makes a point on doing that with stands. Araki clearly still had the intention of having za warudo act and be the same on all accounts arigamy.
 
You said alternate, and they're alternate. SHA isn't the same, it isn't worth even debating how they could be the same.

Using the Stand stats is a terrible idea, it was both A. thrown the window B. not used in Part 7 at all until Lucky Land had the stats given for JoJoveller. Why wouldn't the two Worlds have the same set of stats, it's easier than making something up if you already have it written down. So no, I don't think that; not in a VS standpoint.

Shoulder/Arm Clocks.

Not with your lack of evidence it isn't, you're only using base assumptions.
 
Yeah. Its still sha and the world. Just from a different universe. Thats litterally it. The wiki does that shit all the time. Hell pokemon and its entire scaling is based off alternate universe legendary pokemon having the same power.

Using the stand stTs for scaling was bad. While stand stats for things for example 3km cmoon or the specific kind of statistics (quite a few profiles use that). And arigamy. For one that just accused me of making assumptions ya go and do that yaself moments later. The fact is as far as araki concerned za warudo from sbr and sc have the same stats and thus have the same power and durability. It doesnt matter what the reason was wog claimed the same power had the exact same statistics. Araki listed the two stands as the same statistics and thus equal and assuming things for example he was lazy us completely unfounded. At least my assumption uses multiple interviews as a bases for a claim .
 
I'll explain SHA for you since you don't seem to get it.

Serial Killer: Tracks heat and explodes when heat is too much

Sailor Helper: Can just explode whenever in whatever kinda size and in numerous numbers

They're not the same. Neither are The Worlds fundamentally, in my eyes it's kind of saying a Kingdom Come Superman and a Superman New 52 are the same Supermen.

You never even mentioned or linked an interview once to back up your claim.
 
Yeah hence why jojolion fine as far as a downgrade goes mate .

>Neither are The Worlds fundamentally,

>fun┬Àda┬Àmen┬Àtal┬Àly ╦îfəndə╦êmen(t)əlē/Submit adverb in central or primary respects. "two fundamentally different concepts of democracy"

The exact opposite would be the actual truth arigamy. Excluding the kneepads and minor visual duffentation the stands are exactly the same. And wog supports that. The literal only difference made apparent for za warudo would be the minor visual choice. (Plus stands well capable of changing design for reflecting the yser and the outwardly appearance. Chariot and the oeg legs. Part four platinum and the white gloves (which may or may not be canon).

SBR and SC za warudo.

>Almost the exact from a visual stand point.

>Have the exact same powers.

>Are the same exact stand.

>Wog had given the za warudo the exact same statistic which obviously would insinuate equal and on par power and overall statistics when compared.

Yet the za warudo from the differentiating parts cant be scaled because of an assumption araki was obviously not willing to write out a few different alphabetical plus a few numbers ? .

Maybe although ya saying ya arent aware of the interviews arigamy? Probably would go and obtain the quote if ya want or arent aware although pretty sure ya are man.
 
I'd just like to add my two cents. I was reading the JJL profiles just the other day and I thought of this, convenient that this thread happened to appear not soon after.

Having Part 7 and 8 Stands scale to their Part 3/4 counterparts is patently ridiculous. Part 7 constantly demonstrates its Stands and power-levels to be more "down to earth" than their original-universe counterparts, in that Stands tend to be weaker, more grounded in relality, and often related to the Stand-user's physical body.

Besides that fact, THE WORLD looks slightly different from its original-world counterpart, and we never see it fire a single Stand-rush, unlike D4C and Act 4, so... wait... I don't think we ever see THE WORLD throw a single puch at all. If it weren't for its Stand Stats, it would be a fair enough assumption that it was merely a utility Stand with no combat power whatsoever. One way or another, scaling it to The World is absolutely ridiculous. It's making several massive assumptions for no reason other than wanting Part 7 to be as strong as Part 3 was.

Trying to scale Killer Qu∞n to Killer Queen is even dumber. It's obvious that their respective versions of Sheer Heart Attack are far different, KQ8 doesn't have a Bites The Dust, the one makes bubbles on its own while the other needs Stray Cat to do so, the differences are enormous. In fact, other than their shared appearance and ability to create bombs, they have almost nothing in common period. You might as well scale Killer Queen and Boku no Rizumu o Kiitekure to each other.

As much as I hate the idea of an SBR downgrade, it simply doesn't make sense to have the universes scale to each other.
 
Yeah no. Absolutely nothing contradicts the world being as powerful as the world from part three and stand stats (araki wog ) state the stands are equal. Araki himself is litterally saying the stands are equal with that. And the mere fact he didnt throw a barrage at all means the stand cant be contradicted (although it clearly had enough power as za warudo cleaved his leg off and was going to ohko Johnny. Also he was afraid of tusk act four and was warned prior not to get around or hit by tusk hence staying out of range of tusk and hence its range by proxy ) .

The more down to earth isnt even an argument. Part four was deliberately down to earth and that part has the most dense amount of city block stands . And thats only an assumption at that. Not even officual.

And no offense but the quite vast amount of verses that do cross universe scaling while not even wog or quotes that exist have any implication that do is astpubding on the wiki. At least this had a wog and a funny quote and minor implications .

Your point essentially amounts to ". dont think sbr is powerful so its obviously not" and za warudo has few amount if feats while excluding za warudo is the same exact stand and araki gave him equal stats on par with original za warudo man .
 
It doesn't state that they're equal in power, they just have the same Stand stats. IMO we shouldn't be using an inaccurate system of stats to determine some Marvel handbook-esque wackiness of equality.

Just because other verses have it pass doesn't make this instance right. I don't think I'll be convinced anytime soon and vice versa, we need more people because so far its a 3:1. You could try reaching out for other people to see what they think (hopefully unbiased because i know a lot of underground shit that goes on).
 
Missing the point completely arigamy. The world from.dio and alternate universe diego have the exact same stats for a reason. Ya dont expect me to explain what that reason would be for yeah ?.

Also once again stand stats do get used on profiles and a quite decent amount do use stand bios and stats . the thing and reason why stand stats got thrown mostly for the shoddy kind of scaling and inconsistency for the scaling. fortunately the debate at hand? Comparing the exact same stand which according to the author are the exact same stand as far the bio and stand stats go .

Yeah arigamy probably why im handwaving kq and jojoluon. Jojolion worked differently and a lack of evidence made part four scaling debatable .

Za warudo has far more and quite a decent amount of evidence authoral support among a lack of contradictions that allow dio and star platinum scaling for sbr and that part .

also do tell man mostly because what users that have a decent amount of a grasp on jojo that is obviously excluding ya or lapitus that may have a say here? Cant exactly think of a selection.
 
I agree with J-Man.

THE WORLD (SBR) and The World (SDC) are meant to be the exact same stand.

They have:

- The same stand stats (even if stand starts are whonky and not linear, them being equal tells us that they are the same)

- Almost identical physical appearance (probably only differing because of a change in art style)

- Posess the same abilities as one another (though one can only stop time for 5 seconds, but the time stop is dependant on the stand users physical capabilities, obviously a vampire is much more physically capable than Diego.)

- They share the exact same namesake. Diego is supposed to be the counterpart of DIO.

I see no reason why they are very different in strength. I'd also like to point out that I agree with Killer Queen8 and Killer Queen4 not being able to scale from each other, since they have vast differences between the two, meanwhile THE WORLD and The World have almost no differences from each other, so they should be good to scale.
 
Za warudo also had a quick and minor change from part three za warudo from a few stone ocean flash backs meaning probably art style evolution from araki or something akin to that theory .
 
power bump. again gather more people, also i still have that non-corporeal argument up there

Any Diego who didn't steal Scary Monsters probably has The World, he isn't a special snowflake. The latest World drawing was the JoJoniums, he looks more classic than ever.

The wohgodno
 
I too agree with Ari.

Sounding Jaded, but tbh, I dont trust Araki being consistent with the verse especially considering the reboot.

For an analogy, it is like comparing Ugin from pre and post reboot from MTG.

You can't compare two people from the same timeline and multiverse without good enough evidence.

And Ari practically proved the stands are different, so we should dismiss the scaling and write up new scaling.
 
I'm with Ari on the timeline scaling issue, as for the non-corp issue, I'm neutral, tho perhaps incorp and invisibility is the best for most stands.
 
Cool check stone ocean one. Variation of the part three world on panel.

Also the picture ya posted lacks the heart chin feature.

Your argument almost entirely comes and boils to essentially "i dont think sbr is strong so sbr obviously cant scale" and the world is somehow different than the world despite for all intents and purposes being exactly the same from a power stand point. Outright confirmed from jojoveller giving the exact same stats to that za warudo and your rebuttal was "araki is lazy" yet nothing actually contradicts za warudo being as powerful as za warudo from part three also. And alternate universe scaling may be a point. But when araki lists the stands as carbon copies yeah, not a point anymore mate.

1.Outirght explicit identical stats for za warudo.

2.Lack of contradiction.

3.No reason to assume otherwise as the powers between the za warudo are the exact same with no variance which has a canon explanation debunking the point and debate.

The world's act the same and are stated to be the same powerwise and have no contradictions between the worlds. The fact you're debating the world is actually astounding to me. Killer queen makes sense, it acts different and has a completely different power. The world on the other doesnt.

And trusting araki to be consistent isn't a proper point. By that logic how can anything be used? Its only not usable when contradicted by the source, which its not.
 
Still agreeing with J-Man. They are carbon copies of each other and therefore should scale.

1. No varying powers/contradiction in strength/abilities between the two

2. Identical stand stats and appearance

While Araki is definitely inconsistent, it cannot be used as a valid counter-argument, otherwise every argument on stands and scaling can be debunked with this shitty point.

For example, Star Platinum and Silver Chariot are not FTL, their light speed feats are just Araki being inconsistent. < This argument isn't correct because it's never contradicted by the source, and is based upon the author being forgetful.

Arigarmy said:
The latest World drawing was the JoJoniums, he looks more classic than ever.

The wohgodno
Click to expand...
Bitch, where his gains at??? How can anyone say this looks classic? This is 100% Araki's new art style, and as a result, is why The World and THE WORLD look slightly different, and thus them looking slightly different is not a valid argument.
 
I think his lack of gains is due to art style, not design in the jojoiums or like with THE WORLD and The World.
 
Bump.

My comment about The World's design was never argumentive, it's more just trivia filler.
 
That's bad logic considering the plot of it started right after Jotaro defeated DIO in the J-Universe, already getting the stats he normally had.
 
wow ok i see how it is

Let's just get the count here:

Bye Bye Norway (aka Yes): 6 (Me, PaChi, Weekly, Data, Steve, Kink)

Norway (aka No): 3 (J-Man, Lord, Rein)

Flooding to get more input here.
 
ProfessorLord said:
I agree with J-Man.
THE WORLD (SBR) and The World (SDC) are meant to be the exact same stand.

They have:

- The same stand stats (even if stand starts are whonky and not linear, them being equal tells us that they are the same)

- Almost identical physical appearance (probably only differing because of a change in art style)

- Posess the same abilities as one another (though one can only stop time for 5 seconds, but the time stop is dependant on the stand users physical capabilities, obviously a vampire is much more physically capable than Diego.)

- They share the exact same namesake. Diego is supposed to be the counterpart of DIO.

I see no reason why they are very different in strength. I'd also like to point out that I agree with Killer Queen8 and Killer Queen4 not being able to scale from each other, since they have vast differences between the two, meanwhile THE WORLD and The World have almost no differences from each other, so they should be good to scale.
Click to expand...
Going to leave this here, for new people to see and comment on.

I mean, we've accepted much less in scaling. We've actually scaled Star Platinum and The World as being identical to each other just because we were told so, despite the fact that Araki literally contradicts this by having different stand stats altogether.

If we can scale those two as identical, we should DEFINITELY be able to scale THE WORLD and The World as identical.
 
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