Questioning Chara's classification as a 2-B

[Voidchimera]

I've noticed a fair bit of discussion pertaining to the attack Chara performs at the end of the 'Genoside' route, which destroys the game's universe, using it as a feat to confirm very high tiers. While this is certaintly an amazingly powerful feat, not only are some rather major assumptions made about it's scope, but i've seen it come up quite a bit when comparing Chara to other characters (IE Undyne and others), and i'm not sure this is actually relevant for most practical situations, for a few reasons:

While by the end they can kill any monster with one blow, it's only after defeating Asgore, since he had absorbed all 7 souls, when they actually gained the power to do this. They were the same LV before and after killing him. Supporting evidence is that while deadly, even their final attack on Sans and later Asgore (when they were max level) had NO effects on anything except the target, and the first attack shown to have any power beyond the blow itself was the final one. At any point before this, they have nowhere near this level of power. Indeed, it's stated that the only reason LV actually increases the damage done is because monster's are mostly magic-based, and are more vunerable to attacks the higher the attacker's killing intent is.

Apart from her ability to communicate directly with the player, that seems to be the limit of their hyperuniversal abilities; there is no evidence that she actually ever left the universe after she destroyed it. A classification of 2-B may be a little overzealous, since it requires the character to not only destroy multiple universes, but be able to thrive in and destroy over a thousand, which there is really no evidence for. In fact, most of the properties that allow her to act this way are unique to that universe (malleuability of the timeline and such, which requires determination, which may not work the same way in every universe).

To be honest, there's not even evidence that spacetime itself is damaged, since wind can be heard howling in the void. This shows that all structure was destroyed, but there was basic matter left in the universe, (even if the sound was simply diffuse hydrogen gas or whatever). This would result in placing them at 3-A max, since she can't actally hurt the player or anything beyond their physical universe. Any thoughts?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

While by the end they can kill any monster with one blow, it's only after defeating Asgore, since he had absorbed all 7 souls, when they actually gained the power to do this.

Asgore never absorbed the six human souls. That's what Flowey was trying to warn him about, but he never heeded the warnings. Undyne and the others assumed he would, but he didn't, and that's what led to his death.

Supporting evidence is that while deadly, even their final attack on Sans and later Asgore (when they were max level) had NO effects on anything except the target, and the first attack shown to have any power beyond the blow itself was the final one.

This is a common trope in fiction. Concentrated attacks are used often in almost every form of media. If we only went by what attacks looked more impressive, most DBZ characters would be dying to building level attacks.

there is no evidence that she actually ever left the universe after she destroyed it.

By definition Chara would have left the universe after destroying it, since there was no universe left to exist in. You cannot continue to occupy something which no longer exists.

To be honest, there's not even evidence that spacetime itself is damaged, since wind can be heard howling in the void. This shows that all structure was destroyed, but there was basic matter left in the universe,

You can't hear wind howling in space, either. The wind is literally only there for dramatic effect.

 

[Voidchimera]

Asgore never absorbed the six human souls.

I'll concede that it was never stated that he did, but there is also no other reason for Chara's power to jump from "Needing a direct hit to kill one person on contact" when she killed Asgore to "Being able to destroy the universe" with no other action between.

This is a common trope in fictio.

They had no medium to attack with other than the knife, are never shown to use magic, and never delt nonphysical damage before in any form, in fact, it was what Sans used to his advantage. That invocation is a flagrant burdon of proof fallacy, akin to saying "I proved magic is real, because nobody can 100% disprove magic".

By definition Chara would have left the universe after destroying it.

That's conjecture. A) As said before and am making a point to restate, there is NO evidence that spacetime was damaged in any way, (which your statment of her persistance relied on). assuming anything other than what is shown in the game is conjecture. B) Since Chara has been shown to persist after death, there is nothing saying that even if destroying the universe DID destroy her body, she persisted as a metaphysical entity in the voided universe. Big whoop, she died once before. It's a null point.

You can't hear wind howling in space, either

As a matter of fact, yeah, you can. It's just that space is nearly empty, and any gas particles present are very diverse. NASA has actually recorded the sound of stellar wind discharged by the sun in the form of a high velocity stream of misc gas and charged particles. And either way, you can't just nitpick what's canon and what's for dramatic effect. The fact is, Chara never mentioned universal destruction. The most she explicitly refrenced was the world. The screen filled with 9's, then upon restart was black with howling wind. Nothing about that implies anything more than the physical destruction of everything in the universe.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'll concede that it was never stated that he did, but there is also no other reason for Chara's power to jump from "Needing a direct hit to kill one person on contact" when she killed Asgore to "Being able to destroy the universe" with no other action between.

They had no medium to attack with other than the knife, are never shown to use magic, and never delt nonphysical damage before in any form, in fact, it was what Sans used to his advantage. That invocation is a flagrant burdon of proof fallacy, akin to saying "I proved magic is real, because nobody can 100% disprove magic".

That's conjecture. A) As said before and am making a point to restate, there is NO evidence that spacetime was damaged in any way, (which your statment of her persistance relied on). assuming anything other than what is shown in the game is conjecture. B) Since Chara has been shown to persist after death, there is nothing saying that even if destroying the universe DID destroy her body, she persisted as a metaphysical entity in the voided universe. Big whoop, she died once before. It's a null point.

As a matter of fact, yeah, you can. It's just that space is nearly empty, and any gas particles present are very diverse. NASA has actually recorded the sound of stellar wind discharged by the sun in the form of a high velocity stream of misc gas and charged particles. And either way, you can't just nitpick what's canon and what's for dramatic effect. The fact is, Chara never mentioned universal destruction. The most she explicitly refrenced was the world. The screen filled with 9's, then upon restart was black with howling wind. Nothing about that implies anything more than the physical destruction of everything in the universe.

It's not a power jump. It's a matter of no longer needing Frisk's physical body to interact with the world. There's also the whole "nothing left for us here", because they kinda wanted to kill everyone they could, directly.

That has literally nothing to do with it. They only had a knife, yes. You know what they destroyed the world with? A knife. The Attack Potency page explains the difference between things like this.

A) Space-time would be damaged because Chara "bringing the world back" resulted in time resetting to the beginning of the game. Not just some random point in the material universe, nor even right before it was destroyed. B) Chara didn't have a physical body which could be destroyed. They weren't a physical being. They were a metaphysical consciousness feeding on Frisk. "Chara the human" had been dead for years.

No, I mean you, a human, cannot hear wind in space, which it wouldn't make sense for anyway. This isn't cherrypicking what's canon. It's stating what's an obvious dramatic effect and what isn't. Asriel also made mention of "the world". So did Flowey. Both of them showed space-time related, far beyond planetary feats. In context, Chara saying "move onto another planet" wouldn't make any sense, especially considering what they represent.

 

[Voidchimera]

A) That's still a heck of a power jump.

B) It has nothing to do with Attack Potency, you kinda proved my point. In double battles, the damage only affects the target specified. Sure, with a high enough Potency, they can destroy the universe. I never disputed that. But the thing is, it jumps straight there, 0-100 just like that. No building up destructive ability, it's either one target or the whole universe. Reinforcing the established point that Chara's power to devistate monsters was due to the killing intent, and has almost nothing to do with the physical energy of the attack, which the game explains rather explicitly.

C) Timeline changes are by no means the same as destroying and remaking a universe. The power Determination granted is NEVER fully explained. Assuming it involves that level of reality-warping is again, conjecture.

D) Spacetime related planetary level feats are honestly nothing compared to a Tier 2 or 3. I refrenced their use of the world not to imply they meant the planet, but to show their explict lack of use of the term universe or any even broader term. Their only power that gets them near that level is the massive timeline warping from the soul power, which again, while a easily 3-A power, never goes beyond our universe.


That is the biggest point here, none of the characters ever go beyond our universe. The most they ever do is restructure it. Yes, they can massively edit and restructure it, alter it's timeline, and communicate past it, but that's the extent of it. While the ending is abstract, and can be interpreted many ways, making assumptions about it's scale with no evidence is not acceptable.

 

[Promestein]

Asriel literally destroys and remakes a timeline in the final fight with him. Flowey does the same.

Also, please don't quote massive walls of text. It's against the rules.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

A) Yes, it's a large increase in power, but not unheard of. Especially with the nature of Determination.

B) It's obviously partially due to killing intent, but you know what's not due to killing intent? Annihilating the timeline. The game makes it clear the affects of killing intent on monsters, but it also makes it clear this is far from the only thing which makes Chara so dangerous.

C) Not being fully explained by no means makes it entirely unusable. Also, nobody said the changes were equal to destroying a timeline. This is why base Frisk and Flowey aren't Low 2-C.

D) Again, nothing suggests the power is limited to planetary. Use of the word "world" is, again, very common in fiction for things on a larger scope, and Asriel purging the timeline of "the world" and only meaning the planet wouldn't really make much sense.

Also, this is explained on the tiering page, but affecting multiple timelines of a single universe is indeed beyond universal. There only being one timeline (which the game makes it clear there isn't) wouldn't alter the scale of the characters' power within it. This topic has been discussed numerous times, and saying there's "no evidence" is a pretty big slap in the face to all the time people have put into discussing this matter.

 

[Voidchimera]

A) Exactly. It's a power jump. Which means something changed.

B) Dude. Still proving my point. I pointed out, Chara's attacks are all the same no matter how strong they are, up until the final attack. Which means, either they had that power the whole time, and just held back (unlikely, as it means killing monsters did not make them stronger at all, which would make Chara have no use for it, since power is their goal), or it means the got it at the very end, suddenly, from some event between striking Asgore and attacking the universe.

C) The fact that it's not fully explained, or even functionally explained at all, means you can not simply assume the most powerful scenario. For all we know, it's just applied time travel. There's no reason it involves tearing up the spacetime in any spectacular way and remaking it.

D) http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html Again, they never demonstrated powers greater than that. The statment that 'We don't know it was limited' is a textbook logical fallacy. And you've made it like 3 times now. -_-

E) It actually doesn't say that. It refers to destruction of the space-time continuum, which is a massively more dramatic change. You didn't even refute my original points that the universe wasn't actually tier-2 destroyed, just everything IN it was destroyed, you just kinda ignored it, by the way. Your literal only point has been 'Well, we don't know it WASN'T destroyed...'

And for the record, more discussion on a topic is never a bad thing, especally if it has a debated history. Saying we shouldn't discuss something simply because it has been discussed before is...

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

A) No, I was talking about Chara's power jump from the beginning to the end, not between Asgore and the end, at which point it's absolutely negligible.

B) Once again, that's not how it works. The difference between the two attacks here is that one is focused on a single individual, and one isn't. This is another example of concentrated attacks. Hell, even if Chara had been as low as city level, they should have been able to strike anywhere and affect a large area of terrain, but they couldn't despite being much higher than that. This is because, as I said before, they didn't get a massive bump in power from killing Asgore. They no longer needed to be in Frisk's body, which took the limit off their AoE.

C) Chara specifically says they'll bring the world back. If a timeline still existed to travel back on, Frisk or the player could have done so. It's not assuming this scenario because it's the highest end. It's because it's the most logical way of looking at it.

D) This is a misunderstanding of burden of proof. As Prom pointed out, Asriel purges the timeline in the final battle. Flowey obliterates your current save, which is the timeline containing all your progress, before you battle with him. Both time the word "world" is used in a manner similar to "timeline", "timelines", or "universe". Most of the time in reference to the totality of the game. If you want to establish that "world" meant "planet" in context, you must also present proof for this idea. You cannot say that since it is the low end, I have the burden of proof for proving the higher end, even though regardless, I've already pointed out why using "world" for "planet" doesn't make sense, in context.

E) A timeline is a space-time continuum. A separate space-time continuum from the initial universe it branched from. Separate timelines are different continuums from one another. I also addressed your point about the universe being destroyed, and Chara recreating the continuum. Your point about it not being destroyed was that there was wind, which I also addressed.

More discussion isn't a bad thing. I never said it was. I said it's bad to treat it as if there's BEEN no prior discussion, which you did, inadvertently or not, by saying there was nothing but assumptions with no evidence.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I'm going off the bat + shooting a bullet in the dark to say that this sounds like the person is trying to downgrade the Undertale verse, Azathoth.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm going off the bat + shooting a bullet in the dark to say that this sounds like the person is trying to downgrade the Undertale verse, Azathoth.

Technically it only affects several people, so I don't know if that's a verse-wide downgrade.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I'm going off the bat + shooting a bullet in the dark to say that this sounds like the person is trying to downgrade the Undertale verse, Azathoth.

Technically it only affects several people, so I don't know if that's a verse-wide downgrade.

Still it sounds like the OP wants to have those like Chara be down to 3-A just because it doesn't sound like they destroyed thousands of Space-Time continuums.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Still it sounds like the OP wants to have those like Chara be down to 3-A just because it doesn't sound like they destroyed thousands of Space-Time continuums.

I can always just link stuff from the old discussion, because I feel like that's gotten buried amongst a ton of other stuff.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Still it sounds like the OP wants to have those like Chara be down to 3-A just because it doesn't sound like they destroyed thousands of Space-Time continuums.

I can always just link stuff from the old discussion, because I feel like that's gotten buried amongst a ton of other stuff.

Fair enough. Trust me Azzy, i'm seriously getting really sick of having to look at another Chara thread. First there was that thread where Crazy wanted to upgrade Chara to likely High 2-A, and now we got this shit but this time it's different...

 

[Squid_peanut]

A) it's a power jump that makes sence when you take into acount the maximum determination potencial of the Frisk/chara human soul, as it is capable of reaching such levels out of the blue.

B) It wasn't as much a case of Chara holding back as much as them just not caring, while Frisk is only determined by the situation, chara seems to be determined from the rewards, or something to that nature.

c) Determination doesn't have to be fully explained as a concept and force if we know what it is used to acomplish and state that it can be used for that, three characters are able to destroy timelines with determination, so we safely assume that insane concentrations of determination can destroy timelines. you don't need to know the inner workings of a firearm to know what happens when you fire it at someone.

D) "World" in undertale is used synominously in undertale with "timeline". Assuming that a timeline acounts for a standard sized universe unless other wise stated is prett safe, as the alternative is that Undertale's earth has its own timeline seperate from the rest of its universe, which would fall under burden of proof. we know that world is used to heavely imply timeline, and we assume that time and space operates as what we have as standard because going to defaults when there lacks any information relating to a topic is logically commen sence.

E) it is flat out stated by sans that Chara's actions are causing timelines to stop and eventually for everything to end, this would require that Chara actually destroys the timeline and not just everything in it as they literally stop. this also means that chara has the capability to end countless timelines "suddently" which is a 2-B feat backed up by someone who is several times eluded to have a quantum physics background and a resident expert on time travel and temporal mechanics despite lacking the ability himself.

 

[Squid_peanut]

I can always just link stuff from the old discussion, because I feel like that's gotten buried amongst a ton of other stuff.

pretty much every conversation that is had about Undertale ends up being forgotten as this sort of thing just keeps happening

no offence @voidchimera

 

[Voidchimera]

A) What? Frisk had the same amount of determination, and they never destroyed the universe. Hell, flowey/asriel never even did that. Chara is the only one, and only right at the end. They did not have that power while fighting Undyne or any of the other bosses, yet some other characters are based around the assumption that they did.

B) That's still my point. If Chara already had that power, that means the rewards mean nothing, since they're already a god. That explanation has tons of hols...

C) Oh my god. Did you even read the link. What you just said, is exactly the same as saying "You can't disprove ghosts, therefore ghosts must exist". It's a burden of proof fallacy. You can not assume determination has powers that the story never mentions. That's conjecture. It's a logical fallacy. In the discussion rules, it says to read up on logical fallicies. Please do that.

D) Nobody ever said each timeline was a seperate universe. Sans never even says what the hell a timeline is, you pulled that out of nowhere. Is a timeline just a sequence of events? Is it an alternate path the universe could take, or even did take in another playthrough? Is a timeline starting and stopping a universe being destroyed and created, or is it just the timeline of one universe being edited? Who the heck knows! Seriously, you're making these sweeping assumptions with no evidence.

E) Ending countless timelines suddenly is not a 2-B feat, the feats don't even talk about time-altering. They talk about destroying the space-time continuum, which is again, a entirely different topic.

@CrossverseCrisis Actually, it's because there's no actual evidence that's what happened. Everything so far has been loose conjecture, with no actual facts or evidence behind it to show that it ever goes beyond our universe. Who said a universe can't have multiple timelines? Nobody, you're just assuming. Who said that Chara creates a new universe every time, instead of just going back to a old point on the original timeline? Nobody, you're just assuming. Who said she destroys spacetime itself, instead of just everything in it? Nobody, you're just assuming. See the pattern? You're assuming that they destroyed over a thousand universes, but everything that claim is built on is just assumptions and conjecture. It's kinda hilarious in a sad sort of way honestly.


@Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot

A) It's exponential. Anything before hotland is peanuts compared to after. People were saying Undyne the Undying has multiverse-tier defence because she survived a hit from Chara. My point was, Chara was nowhere near that power when she fought Undyne. That's literally my main point on that matter

B) And it still doesn't matter. I remember seeing an earlier thread where someone counted the 9's it showed when Chara attacks the world, and it was like 200 something? So, you're saying, an increase from ~10^9 damage (how much they hit asgore for), to 10^199 damage (how much they hit the world for), is not a massive bump? Seriously?

C) Chara was in control. What else did you think her statment "SINCE WHEN WHERE YOU THE ONE IN CONTROL" meant? Seriously, did you not get that? Or did you just ignore it to make your point easier to defend?

D) Oh my god. I never said that world meant planet. I said, he used 'world', and said nothing about the 'universe', to point out that Asriel never mentioned anything beyond our universe. I did NOT say that it was just planet scale, I was just correcting your friggin comment. Congrats, you've gone from making stuff up about the game to making stuff up about my comments! May I introduce you to my good friend the strawman?

E) Where are you even getting this from? Seriously. Who said that? You're literally just making stuff up to fit at this point. Nobody ever defined a timeline. You're making up a definition to fit this scenario, but your definition is not canon, and means nothing.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

A) That was your main point of the matter? Aside from a brief mention of "Undyne and others" in the OP, most of it is about Chara themself and why they're not tier 2.

B) Chara's damage is immensely inconsistent. It does far more to bosses than basic mooks. My main point was that while it's clear killing intent plays a part (i.e. wanting to kill bosses, not really caring about basic enemies), it wouldn't have any effect on them striking the universe, which was simply raw power.

C) Yes, in control of your actions during the genocide route. That was kinda sorta the entire point. Chara's not in control of literally everything you do, as they can't force you to give up your soul. That's the whole reason they need to hold you hostage and threaten to just never bring the world back, in the first place. If there was another timeline in the world which Chara repeatedly talked about, the player could have escaped to it. But they couldn't, because there was literally nothing to go back to. Chara even makes mention of the player wanting to return to the world they had destroyed.

D) You used the word "planetary" twice, IIRC. In the context of their power and influence. If you simply intended it to be a statement of "well what's to say they're planetary and not universal", I've spent quite a bit of time talking about why it likely refers to a timeline/timelines. This is not how a strawman argument works, either. I've given reasoning for why "world" most likely refers to what I've said it does. Remember that link you posted about Burden of Proof? "Another version occurs when a lack of evidence for side A is taken to be evidence for side B in cases in which the burden of proof actually rests on side B." I've been providing evidence for my stance. Me not having all the answers does not mean my position is inherently wrong, nor that yours is automatically correct.

E) No, this is something that is generally agreed upon on the wiki and in most fictional circumstances. Ever watched DBZ? The space-time continuum that Future Trunks comes from is separate from the main space-time continuum the show takes place in. It is a history which was similar, but diverged along a key point. It is referred to as a timeline.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hell, flowey/asriel never even did that. Chara is the only one, and only right at the end.

Pretty sure Promestein already mentioned this, but both Flowey and Asriel do in fact erase a timeline in their fights. Flowey literally breaks your old save and Asriel consumes the events of the old one.

Is a timeline just a sequence of events? Is it an alternate path the universe could take, or even did take in another playthrough? Is a timeline starting and stopping a universe being destroyed and created, or is it just the timeline of one universe being edited? Who the heck knows!

Also just want to add that numerous fictional works use the word "timeline" for the idea of a parallel space-time continuum that is very similar to the main universe of said fiction, so this isn't just some unfounded claim which we're pulling out of nowhere.

 

[Voidchimera]

A/B) That was the main point of that point, not my whole spheal. The responces to that point rapidly diverged, so I made a point of setting my point out so the point was clearly visible xD In all seriousness though, Chara did not have multiverse-level damage at that point either way, what the heck. Hell, it still took her multiple hits to kill normal monsters at that point, the only reason she hit Undyne so hard (which still wasn't that hard) was the stated hate for the bosses allowing them to do more damage.

C) The player loses their save a few times though, it's not like a big deal. You can't exit the Omega Flowey battle, just because he had a higher determination value than you, so you lost some of your powers, no timelines necessary (except for the closed loop he trapped you in, but that's still just C-tier). It's not that far of a streach to say that once Chara got strong enough, she did the same thing and overwrote your save.

D) No, I said 'the most he mentioned was planetary, nothing universal', to make the point that Asriel never talked about anything out of our universe.

E) Ok, I know the first part, but editing a timeline is not the same thing as destroying and creating a whole spacetime continuum. You think every time they die, Frisk and Chara destroy the universe, then create a new one and try again? Not only is that convoluted as hell, it also doesn't explain how some characters remember things between continuums, even after a genoside run.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

A/B) This is more another topic than the whole space-time thing, but I will agree that it's highly unlikely Chara was as strong during the Undyne fight as during the Sans fight/endgame. However, even having a small portion of the power they had then would be immense, and actually nearly impossible to determine the difference between on such a high scale.

C) No, I mean he actually breaks your save before the start of the fight. It isn't restored until he's defeated and all of his power is lost.

D) Yes, and those were the comments I replied to with references of World coinciding with one or more timelines.

E) As I said before, it certainly isn't, which is why base Frisk and Flowey are rated nowhere near tier 2. It all depends on their ability to interact with it, which is why characters like Asriel and God Flowey are rated so high.

 

[Arthur_melo]

During the fight against Asriel , he destroys the timeline and immediately the world starts to end.

What did only points out that world is undertale (as at the end of genocidal ) is a synonym for multiverse

Frisk at the end of peace is much stronger than for Chara because Chara never demonstrated the ability to come back from the dead

Sorry my terrible english

 

[Verivici]

http://i.imgur.com/iWKad22.jpg

 

[Voidchimera]

Sorry for the semi-necropost (does a month count, is it bordeline? Who knows.), I made some stupid points for most of these looking back lmao. I concede most of them. But, I guess I was just confused since, doesn't that mean EVERY enemy that survived a hit from them post-Undyne is that tier? Like, Tsunderplane and such? I mean, yeah, damage scales with how much the player hates them. But, from that, to find the power of the hit, can't we just look at the damage? When they destroyed the uni(multi?)-verse, it was effectively infinite damage (we never see the end of the numbers regardless of resolution), which makes total sense. For Sans and Asgore, it was huge too. But for Undyne, it wasn't...

 

[Promestein]

We don't scale fodder to major character feats, most of the time.

 

[Voidchimera]

We don't scale fodder to major character feats, most of the time.

Ok, but doesn't that mean the only argument against saying "Tsunderplane is the same tier as Undyne, because they both survived 2-A hits" goes away? Just making sure we're on the same page.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Just out of pure curiosity, other than Sans' comment about other Sanses, what are the other mentions of a multiverse? Don't get me wrong, I believe that they are clearly tier 2, but I was having some doubts where myself. Just didn't want to bring it up because I don't want Squid or Azzy to dislike me for that.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

When others characters talks about timelines, they usually mentions them in the present tense instead of the past tense (Implying all timelines currently exists)

Sans mentions that Chara will consume every timeline until there is nothing left (Which wouldn't make sense with a single timeline)

Asriel destroys a timeline, yet the world work just fine.

 

[Voidchimera]

Just out of pure curiosity, other than Sans' comment about other Sanses, what are the other mentions of a multiverse? Don't get me wrong, I believe that they are clearly tier 2, but I was having some doubts where myself. Just didn't want to bring it up because I don't want Squid or Azzy to dislike me for that.

It depends on how you interpret the timeline edits, really. If you view them as modifying the original universe, then yeah, there's no proof for a multiverse. If you view them as their own seperate entities, then they could be considered universes. Really, it just boils down to SUPER subjective views on the term 'universe' (which people somehow made subjective, because it was used wrong in a few tv shows?), and 'timeline' (which is definitely subjective since it is never explained in full). People have been bitching back and forth for a while on it, with no progress since neither side has proof, just evidence.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Another question: how many save states does Flowey demonstrate, and does UT work on multiverse theory?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The very definiton of a timeline is that changing time isn't just changing the universe, it's creating a seperate entity for the Universe to happen with the changes.

And Undertale do seems to support timelines existing at the same time.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Could you please evaluate more on the first point. I don't seem to understand. Not a problem with your wording, I'm just stupid lol jk.

But how would that explain Sans being nihilistic about having his life reset all of a sudden? I'm just saying that multiverse theory seems to put them this high, but I could be very wrong.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Basically, the whole of a timeline is that there is multiple of them. Each for each "line" time takes.

For example, a timeline where you wrote this post, and timeline where you didn't.

If there is a single universe at all time, the Timeline concept doesn't make any sense.

About Sans, that's where it gets a bit weird. Either that he knows that another sanses will be created, but without the "happy ending". That or he could be misintepretating what a resets does.

Either way, it's clear there is multiple timelines existing at the same time.

 

[Verivici]

Alphys mentions alternate universes

Look up All of Alphys' crushes' on YouTube, it's at the 1:55 mark

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alright. I'm content. Though, shouldn't Chara be above Flowey, but under Asriel if he was going to destroy all that was left? I mean, even though Flowey intended to become more powerful than Chara, he could've underestimated his power.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

No real reason to think he did, since all of what Flowey did was causal, that logically 6 human SOUL > 1 SOUL (Even though Chara is technically stronger than a single SOUL but still) and that Flowey reduced the world to the same state that it was Post-Genocide and against Asriel when "the world is ending"

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

But Frisk still existed with Flowey. And one major problem I have with what level they're rated at, which again, I'm 100% positive is tier 2 (though not sure is B or C because the 216 nines seeming absurd and would mean every 1 point of hp is univeral, and Flowey having about 7 save states still bugs me (though your multiverse explanation did clear that up a great amount)). For Chara, it was just him and the player.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Frisk has variable power (And was nothing more than a puppet in genocide) so I wouldn't take this into account.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alright. Though I have been hearing that he's just your (the player's) puppet in normal routes too.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well yours, but not Chara's. Chara has no control in other routes.