Question about VS Matchups of Characters with Post-Mortem abilities

[ExSENNA]

How should matchups with characters that have abilities that can keep fighting even after they themselves are defeated/killed be concluded?

For example. Characters such as Carne, Tooru, and others similar to them.

Notorious B.I.G and Wonder of U will continue to act even after their user is killed. But their profiles aren't for themselves, but for Carne and Tooru, while they are just abilities. For example afaik killing Carne should secure the victory as killing Notorious B.I.G is not a requirement as it is an ability not the character.

How should these matches work? Every match involving Tooru is actually a match involving WoU, and every match involving Carne is actually a match against Notorious B.I.G, even though defeating them is not necessary and only defeating Tooru and Carne will secure victory, right?

I think abilities like these who can keep chasing and attacking their opponent with no reliance to their own user may get another key for themselves, as defeating their abilities themselves is not a requirement for victory given profiles belong to users

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Another example is Neferpitou from Hunter X Hunter who can literally die but becomes a much more powerful puppet for her ability in the process, making her even stronger than before while being a headless corpse.

 

[ExSENNA]

Another example is Neferpitou from Hunter X Hunter who can literally die but becomes a much more powerful puppet for her ability in the process, making her even stronger than before while being a headless corpse.

I think similar enough. If she is already killed then why her opponent would have to also fight her dead corpse. Corpse could get another tier. I only mentioned Tooru and Carne in OP because couldn't think of more characters lke these

 

[ExSENNA]

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[ExSENNA]

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[ExSENNA]

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[Chariot190]

Notorious BIG and Carne are technically one and the same, killing Carne is just killing his physical body, but as with most Stands (including a Stand that gets introduced in that same arc), they're technically the same being, BIG is just a facet of his soul. If you don't kill the Sand, you haven't actually beat him as he's still actively attacking you.

WoU is an odd case, but it's still Toru's ability, beating him and dying to WoU is just like beating Goku but dying to a ki attack he threw a second prior, you still both die, except in this case WoU lives on.

Think about it this way, if you fought Alien X, Venom, Yugi, and killed one of its personalities, Ed or Yami, but Ben and the other dude, Venom, or lil Yug ended up beating you after you did that, you still lost, all you managed is to defeat one aspect of them.

Though that's for your two specific examples, I wouldn't say you'd need to kill all of Dio's zombies to defeat Dio if you managed to kill him, or kill all of Cynthia's Pokemon to beat her, or to beat Midna if you defeated TP Link, in those cases the entities aren't falling under the "same" character.

i guess the deciding factor would be if they have multiple selves

 

[ExSENNA]

Notorious BIG and Carne are technically one and the same, killing Carne is just killing his physical body, but as with most Stands (including a Stand that gets introduced in that same arc), they're technically the same being, BIG is just a facet of his soul. If you don't kill the Sand, you haven't actually beat him as he's still actively attacking you.

WoU is an odd case, but it's still Toru's ability, beating him and dying to WoU is just like beating Goku but dying to a ki attack he threw a second prior, you still both die, except in this case WoU lives on.

Think about it this way, if you fought Alien X, Venom, Yugi, and killed one of its personalities, Ed or Yami, but Ben and the other dude, Venom, or lil Yug ended up beating you after you did that, you still lost, all you managed is to defeat one aspect of them.

Though that's for your two specific examples, I wouldn't say you'd need to kill all of Dio's zombies to defeat Dio if you managed to kill him, or kill all of Cynthia's Pokemon to beat her, or to beat Midna if you defeated TP Link, in those cases the entities aren't falling under the "same" character.

i guess the deciding factor would be if they have multiple selves

Is Stand a manifestation of the Soul, or literal Soul itself? Semantics aside they're almost always potrayed as abilities imo and could get a seperate tier to avoid confusion, after all your ability is still part of you. Afaik most other stands will stop attacking if you kill the user even if you cannot defeat the stand itself

I don't know other characters but DIO doesn't start in battles with his Zombies anyway, it would only be an example if he started with a bunch of zombies that can still fight even if he died aiding him. He could only get them with prep/the battlezone has civilians/can infect his opponent(s)

This wasn't specifically about these two but broadly about all characters with similar shenanigans tbh

Also, unrelated but, what happened to durability of stand users who tanked a bunch of stand rushes with no issues, like Jotaro taking beatings from The World and walking away but his durability is Wall level for some reason

 

[Chariot190]

Is Stand a manifestation of the Soul, or literal Soul itself? Semantics aside they're almost always potrayed as abilities imo and could get a seperate tier to avoid confusion, after all your ability is still part of you. Afaik most other stands will stop attacking if you kill the user even if you cannot defeat the stand itself

A bit of both, depends on the Stand in question. The best way to describe it for most, is if every Stand user had a very bad case of disassociative personality disorder, but the other personality can manifest as an ability, sometimes completely sentient or an aspect of their own psyche. For example, Spice Girl (who verbatim says she and Trish are the same), or PH being reflective of Fugo's anger.

Stands are an ability, but they're also the main body.

Yes, most Stands stop attacking because killing the user, kills the Stand, and vice versa as they're one in the same. But there are exceptions as with most Stand rules, for example BIG sticks around because of Carne's hate.

I don't know other characters but DIO doesn't start in battles with his Zombies anyway, it would only be an example if he started with a bunch of zombies that can still fight even if he died aiding him. He could only get them with prep/the battlezone has civilians/can infect his opponent(s)

Dio, not DIO. Part 1 lad. And that's my point, Dio can easily make zombies, and it's something he actively does if given a chance, but if you kill him you don't need to kill the zombies, hey aren't actually apart of his own kit, he just infects other dudes.

Also, unrelated but, what happened to durability of stand users who tanked a bunch of stand rushes with no issues, like Jotaro taking beatings from The World and walking away but his durability is Wall level for some reason

Placeholder for Jotaro in particular, and a few others.
Though in some cases they're just outliers, inconsistent or cause paradoxical bullshit, like with Jotaro, if we took that at face value, it'd actually make Jotaro himself more durable than (base) Star Platinum as the hits he took where from HIGH The World, who's so much more powerful than Base Plat he'd punch a hole clean through it, and needless to say that isn't true, Base Plat eclipses Jotaro in durability and is why Jotaro actively uses him to block stuff that would normally maim or kill him the actual answer is DIO wasn't trying to kill him n that SPECIFIC moment and was talking shit, and then immediately says afterward that he's NOW going to kill Jotaro within his next time stop. Said attacks dusted his bones anyway.
Jotaro is way the **** above 9-B in durability though, as said that's just a placeholder because calcs and more concrete scaling needed to be figured out (which they mostly have been). Bruno is also packing some superhuman dura as a notable example.

 

[ExSENNA]

I think it's Dio Zombie stuff is not a good example given he does not start with a bunch of zombies in a vs matchup anyway, and Zombies he makes isn't his ability but infection is, which by itself cant fight. Zombie may even just dip if he saw Dio dead lol


I think stands are often potrayed as an ability, or some sort of two entities that are linked. You wouldn't say Carne isn't dead because Infamous LARGE isn't dead, right. When people make matchups with Carne they almost only refer to LARGE and almost never mention Carne due to how irrelevant he is. The page belongs to Carne but he's not relevant and main thing is the stand

Why would the "dominant", relevant side not get the page name or at least a key for itself when other side is so irrelevant, can be killed easily with no effect on the relevant side, it feels weird tbh

 

[Chariot190]

I think it's Dio Zombie stuff is not a good example given he does not start with a bunch of zombies in a vs matchup anyway.

Literally my point, he could make zombies, and he could die, but nobody would be expected to finish them off too, they aren't really part of himself or an actual intrinsic quality.

I think stands are often potrayed as an ability, or some sort of two entities that are linked.

They're both? Stands can be, or have an ability (hence "Stand ability"), and yeah, they are portrayed as two separate entities but said two different entities are both the same character, we even had a CRT recently discussing Stands qualifying for Astral Projection. That's one of the main focal points of Stands as a concept. A Stand and its user quite literally, are the same being, wth very few exceptions (Like Ball Breaker).

You wouldn't say Carne isn't dead because Infamous LARGE isn't dead, right.

He's dead, but dying doesn't inherently mean victory or can't fight anymore. You wouldn't say a character who can revive loses if they die once, or a character who can fight as a ghost, like Kirby, or any other numerous examples of characters and death not inherently resulting in being incapable of fighting back.

When people make matchups with Carne they almost only refer to LARGE and almost never mention Carne due to how irrelevant he is.

Correct. Carne is a nonfactor, his Stand is far more problematic than he'd ever be. But that goes for like any user, in a vs match people don't talk about Jotaro, they talk about Star Platinum do they not? Jotaro almost never actually matters. But we wouldn't change the profile to be called "Star Platinum", nor say ha he doesn't matter even if him mattering is just as a weakpoint.

The page belongs to Carne but he's not relevant and main thing is the stand

The page belongs to both of them, it's called Carne because he's the main body, but the Stand isn't some different wacky entity he calls upon like Link calling upon Tatl, BIG is apart of him, to truly beat Carne, you need to defeat him and the Stand.

Why would the "dominant", relevant side not get the page name or at least a key for itself when other side is so irrelevant, can be killed easily with no effect on the relevant side, it feels weird tbh

Because they're the main body, the user. The Stand is in their control 99% of the time, the Stand originates from them, etc. It's just a few Stands happen to have post-mortem abilities and existence for various reasons as an ability in and of itself. It's part of their toolkit.
The only time the main body ever matters is if you're arguing like DIO, give or take a few.

Speaking in more general examples, if you fought Venom (Marvel) and killed the symbiote but Ed managed to beat you after, I'd still count that as a win on his end even though half the dude died, or if you fought Rick, killed him and his clone popped up and finished you off, or hell, novel Kars where D4C just goes and gets a new Kars to make the "main" Kars. Most of the time it should be obvious when a character dying actually ends a match, and when it doesn't, case by case basically.

 

[ExSENNA]

My point about Dio example is that he doesn't start with Zombies are weak someone that can beat Dio is unlikely to die to Zombies who also are not even likely to fight, he doesn't have the same irrelevant - dominant relationship Carne has with Large. Carne is "main body" and "user" but he' nonfactor and does nothing other than dying, thus nobody talks about him, almost like he's not using the stand but stand is using him lol. but people do talk about Jotaro because he's, although weaker, is a factor and pilots SP, not the same thing

I got it though, I used them as example but I overlooked "two in one" situation a bit, the question was broadly about any type of character with an ability that can haunt you even after they are dead. I got it