MCU She-Hulk Minor Downgrade and Matchups Removal.

[AThe1412]

Yeah. Regarding the MCU She-Hulk profile, I want to address two things with this thread.

1. She-Hulk IS NOT far stronger than Daredevil and does not scale above him or any street tiers.
There are no feats that suggest Jennifer Walters is far stronger than Matt Murdock. Their only fight in the show consists of him easily dodging most of her attacks while not fighting back since he doesn't want to harm her. It was only when she produced a Thunderclap which just so happened to align with one of Daredevil's most iconic weaknesses (You know, sound!) was he hit and knocked to the ground. She did not overpower him, she used an ability that perfectly counters him and picked him up while he was still dazed and in pain, though uninjured. Kingpin has shown better feats against Daredevil than she has. Thus, I propose that we remove her being far stronger and instead only be comparable to Daredevil by virtue of being able to harm him.
Edit: New supporting evidence. Black Widow restrained an Ultron Sentry, one of which lifted a car with one arm. The street tiers are literally comparable in LS to She-Hulk so she isn't stronger than them.

Agree: 1 (@noninho)

Disagree: 6 (@Duedate8898, @Robo432343, @Hasty12345, @Propellus, @Lacku, @Jinx666)

Neutral:

2. Matchups removal.

It was fun while it lasted. She-Hulk along with many street tiers were recently upgraded to around 0.068 tons or 0.073 tons. I will, therefore, take a look at all of the current matches on her profile and decide which match we should Remove and which should Stay (Any opinions and contributions on this subject are greatly appreciated).

Victories:

• Vs Wallace Hebertson (Were-Rabbit): AP is 0.008 tons with upscaling. Remove for obvious reasons.
• Vs The Wall: AP is 0.036 tons. Stay (Can be removed if you think that having no arms while being a literal brick wall is too much of a disadvantage).
• Vs The Bulk: AP is 0.011 tons. Remove for obvious reasons.
• Vs A-Train (Pre-Heart Attack): AP is 0.057 tons. Stay.

Losses:

• Vs Marcy Wu (Base): Remove due to Marcy now being 8-B.
• Vs Misako: AP is 0.040 tons. Stay because she still hilariously outskills.
• Vs Yokai: AP is 0.029 tons and is 10-B physically without the microbots. Stay because of big range and LS advantage.
• Vs Harvey Alibastor: AP is 0.031 tons, possibly 0.062 tons. Stay because of gun and abilities like Sleep Manipulation which she does not resist.
• Vs Kaori Shirasaki (Volume 1): AP is 0.068 tons or 0.073 tons. Stay because her victory condition was restraining and crushing with LS advantage instead of AP (Her entire weakness is that she can't harm people directly)
• Vs Homelander (Comic Version): AP is 0.057 tons or 0.062 tons with upscaling, used to be an AP stomp actually due to Homie being able to oneshot people who are stronger than She-Hulk's previous AP but now it can Stay.
• Vs Lincoln Loud: AP is 0.029 tons. Stay because of bloodlust, stealth, and funny laser spam.
• Vs Raphael (Post-Vision Quest 2012 Version): AP is 0.09 tons, used to be an AP stomp so not sure how this ended up on the profile but now it can Stay.
• Vs Gloria: AP is 0.02 tons. Remove for obvious reasons.
• Vs Saul Goodman: Stay because Saul is the GOAT (And because it is an actual court case where they have a battle of wits instead of fists).
• Vs Tyrant T-002: AP is 0.024 tons. Remove for obvious reasons.
• Vs Phoenix Wright (MvC Version): AP is 0.032 tons with upscaling. Stay because of stat amps and better abilities (I personally think he even outskills).
• Vs AAHW (G03LM Mk2): AP is 0.06 tons with upscaling. Stay because of weaponry and being skilled with said weaponry (I can't believe there exists someone who's stupid enough to think that She-Hulk is Skilled)
• Vs Luther Strode: AP is 0.229 tons with upscaling. Remove because holy crap, how did this even get on the profile? He absolutely steamrolls in both strength and skill.
• Vs Ditto: Stay because duh, it's Ditto.
• Vs Moon Knight (MCU): AP is 9-B+. Remove for obvious reasons (It feels weird that he doesn't scale to the street tiers but I guess it makes sense since he has no feats involving them)
• Vs Dipper Pines: Durability is 0.028 but AP is 9-B+. Remove.
• Vs Rumble McSkirmish: AP is 0.028. Eh, he should Stay thanks to superior skill, better ranged options which he uses more often, LS, and weaponry.
• Vs Valga Cromwell (Rom): AP is 0.012 tons. Remove for obvious reasons.
• Vs Finn the Human: AP is 0.01 tons. Remove for obvious reasons.
• Vs Wendy Corduroy: Durability is 0.028 but AP is 9-B+. Remove.
• Vs Wallace Hebertson (Base): AP is 0.008 tons. HOWEVER, he STAYS due to his victory condition not having too much to do with AP in the first place and more to do with trapping She-Hulk and finding some way to get rid of her (What if he just builds a rocketship, which he can do in a single night mind you, during his 2 week long preparation time and straps her to it once he successfully catches her with a trap, then shoot her into space where she either dies or at least gets BFR? Based on what is written in the OP, Wallace is ready to do anything to defeat She-Hulk and protect himself which includes setting up SAW traps).
• Vs Jake the Dog: AP is 0.01 tons. Remove for obvious reasons.
• Vs Magma Cube: AP is 0.016 tons with small upscaling. Remove for obvious reasons.
• Vs Minotaur: AP is 9-B+. Remove for obvious reasons.
• Vs John Rambo: AP is 9-B+, though he does have 9-A explosive arrows but the exact value is unknown so we'll have to assume baseline which is 0.005 tons. As much as it pains me to say it, this is a Remove.

And... That's everybody.

Agree: 1 (@noninho)

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[AThe1412]

Bump.

 

[Duedate8898]

She-Hulk literally fought the hulk. Like, episode 1 of the show has her duking it out with the hulk. She should probably be higher, not lower. And I would maybe change up the OP title and the OP itself because it currently reads as you letting your bias take center stage than any actual anti-feats or other things to support her scaling lower.

I disagree with this downgrade.

 

[AThe1412]

She-Hulk literally fought the hulk. Like, episode 1 of the show has her duking it out with the hulk. She should probably be higher, not lower. And I would maybe change up the OP title and the OP itself because it currently reads as you letting your bias take center stage than any actual anti-feats or other things to support her scaling lower.

I disagree with this downgrade.

She fought him, and? This version of Hulk has the most self control out of all his previous iterations and it's clear as day that he was holding back immensely against her. There's nothing else that suggests her being superior to the street tiers.

 

[Duedate8898]

Self control or not, She hulk could toss around and hurt Smart Hulk. Without solid prooof that he's holding back to a significant degree, She-Hulk is performing a feat far greater than anything Daredevil is showing. And she shows far greater feats of strength than daredevil in their fight, destroying the ground and tossing cars. This daredevil has never operated on such a level

 

[Robo432343]

Disagree FRA

 

[Hasty12345]

Disagree FRA

 

[AThe1412]

Alright, fine. What do you guys think about the matchups removal?

 

[noninho]

First of all:

Vs Wallace Hebertson (Base): AP is 0.008 tons. HOWEVER, he STAYS due to his victory condition

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAH

Second point: you forgot to separate Victories from Losses (base Wallace won, for example)

And finally: everything seems reasonable so I agree with both the list of removals & "stayings", but despite being the official first opponent specifically to SH on the wiki (meaning I'd love to agree with you) I unfortunately cannot agree to the downgrade, as yeah, Hulk was holding back obviously (cuz it was no real fight), but even with this condition, she's still stronger than DD APwise as he's many things but uncapable of doing the same. We'll have to find another anti-feat for her, this one is not usable - once again - unfortunately.

 

[Propellus]

I had to alter the CRT title, as you make it seem like you made this thread right out of spite.

Either way, yes she did overpower him, considering that also the force of her thunderclaps instantly incapacitated him with her on the other hand lifting him up with a single arm.

I disagree with this.

 

[noninho]

I had to alter the CRT title, as you make it seem like you made this thread right out of spite.

Either way, yes she did overpower him, considering that also the force of her thunderclaps instantly incapacitated him with her on the other hand lifting him up with a single arm.

I disagree with this.

Self control or not, She hulk could toss around and hurt Smart Hulk. Without solid prooof that he's holding back to a significant degree, She-Hulk is performing a feat far greater than anything Daredevil is showing. And she shows far greater feats of strength than daredevil in their fight, destroying the ground and tossing cars. This daredevil has never operated on such a level

Sorry to mark you guys like this, but would you mind looking at the second part/the matchups list and inputting about it?

 

[Propellus]

Sorry to mark you guys like this, but would you mind looking at the second part/the matchups list and inputting about it?

I don't have time to evaluate those matchups right now

 

[AThe1412]

I had to alter the CRT title, as you make it seem like you made this thread right out of spite.

Either way, yes she did overpower him, considering that also the force of her thunderclaps instantly incapacitated him with her on the other hand lifting him up with a single arm.

I disagree with this.

Vote counted. That's 2 staff votes so the downgrade can be disregarded now.

And finally: everything seems reasonable so I agree with both the list of removals & "stayings", but despite being the official first opponent specifically to SH on the wiki (meaning I'd love to agree with you) I unfortunately cannot agree to the downgrade, as yeah, Hulk was holding back obviously (cuz it was no real fight), but even with this condition, she's still stronger than DD APwise as he's many things but uncapable of doing the same. We'll have to find another anti-feat for her, this one is not usable - once again - unfortunately.

Well, if even a fellow She-Hulk hater disagree with it then I guess I was wrong. I pray that we get a scene where She-Hulk gets her ass handed to her by Daredevil or another street tier in a future MCU project. Anyway, votes counted.

 

[AThe1412]

Bump.

 

[Lacku]

2. Matchups removal.

It was fun while it lasted.

I think we both have a very different idea of what fun is.

Anyways disagree with the downgrade FRA. Also do any of the matchups you say aren't affected need to be reevaluated since she isn't getting downgraded and scales far above 0.073 tons?

 

[Golden_Void]

She fought him, and? This version of Hulk has the most self control out of all his previous iterations and it's clear as day that he was holding back immensely against her. There's nothing else that suggests her being superior to the street tiers.

Bro threw a boulder at re-entry speeds what

 

[AThe1412]

Bro threw a boulder at re-entry speeds what

He threw it in a place where there's a very low chance anyone would have gotten hit by it and it wasn't an attack but a demonstration of what someone like him can do.

 

[AThe1412]

I think we both have a very different idea of what fun is.

Anyways disagree with the downgrade FRA. Also do any of the matchups you say aren't affected need to be reevaluated since she isn't getting downgraded and scales far above 0.073 tons?

The evaluation takes her scaling into account. How far above is she anyway? Oneshotting range?

 

[Golden_Void]

He threw it in a place where there's a very low chance anyone would have gotten hit by it and it wasn't an attack but a demonstration of what someone like him can do.

Show me DD even picking up anything north of 300 pounds

 

[AThe1412]

Show me DD even picking up anything north of 300 pounds

The fact that he has Class 5 LS on his profile? The fact that Kingpin benchpressed 450 pounds which is also listed on his profile? Black Widow restrained an Ultron Sentry, one of which lifted a car with one arm. The street tiers are literally comparable in LS to She-Hulk so she isn't stronger than them.

 

[AThe1412]

Did everyone just forget Black Widow did that? I'm going to put it on the OP as another piece of supporting evidence for She-Hulk not being far stronger, though it might already be too late for that.

 

[noninho]

As another Piece of evidence has now come forth, vote should be redone and I call the two mods who voted to see if they can take a look. I also now position myself favorable to the downgrade

'

.

 

[AThe1412]

As another Piece of evidence has now come forth, vote should be redone and I call the two mods who voted to see if they can take a look. I also now position myself favorable to the downgrade

I'll count your vote for now but only staff votes matter here so we'll just have to wait and see what they think.

 

[AThe1412]

I think we both have a very different idea of what fun is.

Anyways disagree with the downgrade FRA. Also do any of the matchups you say aren't affected need to be reevaluated since she isn't getting downgraded and scales far above 0.073 tons?

Also counting this vote.

 

[Duedate8898]

Black Widow and the ultron sentry don't really matter in regards to she-hulk because neither character is anywhere relsted to her in terms of scaling.

Still disagreeing

 

[Propellus]

The fact that he has Class 5 LS on his profile? The fact that Kingpin benchpressed 450 pounds which is also listed on his profile? Black Widow restrained an Ultron Sentry, one of which lifted a car with one arm. The street tiers are literally comparable in LS to She-Hulk so she isn't stronger than them.

Did everyone just forget Black Widow did that? I'm going to put it on the OP as another piece of supporting evidence for She-Hulk not being far stronger, though it might already be too late for that.

Still changes nothing.

 

[noninho]

How doesn't it change anything when DD could defeat Kingpin to the level of almost beating him to death and she'd not be able to do this?


Kingpin is comparable to DD in every way when they fought each other and DD won twice, while SH cannot bench press 204kg, has stamina not comparable to Kingpin's and only won  once against DD.

We should put, in minimum, comparable to Daredevil, not vastly superior to him as the profile says

 

[Propellus]

How doesn't it change anything when DD could defeat Kingpin to the level of almost beating him to death and she'd not be able to do this?

When she easily took out DD?

Kingpin is comparable to DD in every way when they fought each other and DD won twice, while SH cannot bench press 204kg, has stamina not comparable to Kingpin's and only won  once against DD.

Since when has Kingpin been able to throw a boulder as far away as She-Hulk has or when she easily threw away a car compared to the other street levelers he scaled to Ultron sentries who barely even lifted a car?

 

[noninho]

When she easily took out DD?

Who wasn't even fighting back, just running as fast as he could after the car? And I can back this off quite simply, actually:

• DD wasn't seriously injured by her at any moment. The Thunderclap got him down and when she lifted him by the collar he was making jokes a couple seconds later.
• DD also survived a construction falling on him, so yeah, a thunderclap did not make much on him.
• Kingpin (who's a topic imma develop later, as you asked) f***ed walls and wooden tables with DD, who still won against him iirc

In conclusion: DD faced an enemy probably better than SH statwise, faced things better than her thunderclap and tanked them and we did not see him fighting back, who probably could do some stuff as he's very superior strategywise (just compare intelligence sections)... meaning it's not feasible to say "vastly superior to DD" in her profile.

Since when has Kingpin been able to throw a boulder as far away as She-Hulk has or when she easily threw away a car compared to the other street levelers he scaled to Ultron sentries who barely even lifted a car?

When we compare not only LS (which btw Kingpin scales higher than those people) but also durability and stamina. In LS we see both of them having solid feats, yes, but with Kingpin's for sure higher stamina and durability he'd be able to do more or less what SH does but for more time. Simple like that.

Also I'm not saying "Kingpin>SH therefore DD would Smash her", I'm saying that by multiple means we see it's not impossible to say SH compares to DD and to guys DD compares to therefore it's not fair to say she is "vastly superior" to him

 

[Propellus]

Who wasn't even fighting back, just running as fast as he could after the car? And I can back this off quite simply, actually:

• DD wasn't seriously injured by her at any moment. The Thunderclap got him down and when she lifted him by the collar he was making jokes a couple seconds later.
• DD also survived a construction falling on him, so yeah, a thunderclap did not make much on him.
• Kingpin (who's a topic imma develop later, as you asked) f***ed walls and wooden tables with DD, who still won against him iirc

In conclusion: DD faced an enemy probably better than SH statwise, faced things better than her thunderclap and tanked them and we did not see him fighting back, who probably could do some stuff as he's very superior strategywise (just compare intelligence sections)... meaning it's not feasible to say "vastly superior to DD" in her profile.

Except this still rather means nothing as this has no relation to Kingpin scaling to She-Hulk at all. She-Hulk could've most likely have taken Matt out in a much worse fashion if she wasn't holding back against him, even though she already overpowered him by lifting him up with a single hand.

When we compare not only LS (which btw Kingpin scales higher than those people) but also durability and stamina. In LS we see both of them having solid feats, yes, but with Kingpin's for sure higher stamina and durability he'd be able to do more or less what SH does but for more time. Simple like that.

Also I'm not saying "Kingpin>SH therefore DD would Smash her", I'm saying that by multiple means we see it's not impossible to say SH compares to DD and to guys DD compares to therefore it's not fair to say she is "vastly superior" to him

Except, there's no evidence of Kingpin being able to replicate the exact kind of feats She-Hulk did on her own terms. Him upscaling from other street levelers unquantifably is not proof either. So why does Kingpin even relate to anything in this case?

 

[noninho]

Except this still rather means nothing as this has no relation to Kingpin scaling to She-Hulk at all.

It actually does!
See, when you call out "SH is vastly superior to DD" and DD is comparable to Kingpin, yeah, you're saying SH is superior to Kingpin...and if I bring forth arguments that she's neither that superior to DD or Kingpin, it has everything to do with SH's scaling.

She-Hulk could've most likely have taken Matt out in a much worse fashion if she wasn't holding back against him

She started holding back, but it was not constant throughout the entire fight as in the last part someone who's holding back would run after him, and instead she threw a car and after it missed she used the Thunderclap.
She overpowered him by conveniently her strongest attack she can perform by herself being sound-based against someone who has sound as weakness. See why this ain't no "vastly superior", but instead in a level our standard call for a "comparable"?

Except, there's no evidence of Kingpin being able to replicate the exact kind of feats She-Hulk did on her own terms

That's why I called this argument with a "more or less".

Him upscaling from other street levelers unquantifably is not proof either.

So is SH doing as of now, since she did not fight DD in a 100% properly fight (he was escaping her and dodging her until she unknowingly hit his weakness and unmasked him noticing they shouldn't be fighting) and is marked as, again, vastly superior than him because of it (and DD is comparable to other street levelers, so she's actually marked as vastly superior than multiple people on a wrong call, which is more serious if we think about it).

So why does Kingpin even relate to anything in this case?

Again I call out:
If Kingpin ≈ DD and you say SH>>>>DD
It is implied that, at least: SH>Kingpin

If I bring to the table proof that actually:
Kingpin ≈ SH | DD ≈ SH
(As 2 separate facts)

Then it becomes more solid to say SH≈DD≈Kingpin than anything else
(I pray that you don't take me as ignorant, but trying to say in a didactic way, as it's my intent)

 

[AThe1412]

Black Widow and the ultron sentry don't really matter in regards to she-hulk because neither character is anywhere related to her in terms of scaling.

Still disagreeing

Uh, why do they have to be related to her? I linked to the profiles to show that the Sentries, Black Widow, and other characters who scale have comparable LS to her to disprove the claim that she is much stronger than them. There's also this scene where 2 Sentries lifted a shipping container.

 

[Duedate8898]

They have to be related because you're trying to use the argument that because Black Widow could restrain an Ultron Sentry, that means that She-Hulk isn't much stronger than them.

That said, if you watched her show, it should be clear that as it currently sits She-Hulk is in fact rated much weaker than she should be, because she clearly scales to Hulk. Her profile is inaccurate, so using her current inaccurate stats to support a downgrade for her doesn't make a lot of sense.

Please, find a feat of She-Hulk getting overpowered by some street level character or something along those lines because as it stands none of what you've provided properly showcases her not being stronger than Daredevil

 

[Propellus]

I prefer not to keep repeating myself here, I've already made my evaluation here and that's set in stone

 

[Golden_Void]

From my memory, Kingpin's best feats are his bench press and likely painfully punching out a brick wall. DD would be far below Luke Cage who is in turn no way comparable to She-Hulk.

 

[AThe1412]

I prefer not to keep repeating myself here, I've already made my evaluation here and that's set in stone

Very well then. I won't bother you with the first subject of this thread any longer. You can leave now or, if you want to, evaluate the second topic of Matchups Removal.

They have to be related because you're trying to use the argument that because Black Widow could restrain an Ultron Sentry, that means that She-Hulk isn't much stronger than them.

And her lack of feats with any street tiers too.

That said, if you watched her show, it should be clear that as it currently sits She-Hulk is in fact rated much weaker than she should be, because she clearly scales to Hulk. Her profile is inaccurate, so using her current inaccurate stats to support a downgrade for her doesn't make a lot of sense.

Excuse me but WHAT?!? SHE-HULK SCALES TO HULK YOU SAY?!? Again, Bruce was holding back immensely against her. That's like saying that an ant is comparable to a human because the ant can survive the human blowing wind at it and can induce mild discomfort to the human by biting them. If you genuinely think that She-Hulk is 6-B then you can make a CRT for that.

 

[AThe1412]

From my memory, Kingpin's best feats are his bench press and likely painfully punching out a brick wall. DD would be far below Luke Cage who is in turn no way comparable to She-Hulk.

That's not how the scaling established by @Lacku in a previous CRT works though. Kingpin and Luke Cage are comparable to other characters who scale to Ant-Man tanking an energy beam from Kang that can vaporise normal people.

 

[AThe1412]

Bump?

 

[Duedate8898]

Excuse me but WHAT?!? SHE-HULK SCALES TO HULK YOU SAY?!? Again, Bruce was holding back immensely against her. That's like saying that an ant is comparable to a human because the ant can survive the human blowing wind at it and can induce mild discomfort to the human by biting them. If you genuinely think that She-Hulk is 6-B then you can make a CRT for that.

Ok, I'll get back to you on that

 

[AThe1412]

Ok, I'll get back to you on that

I mean, if she SOMEHOW does actually get upgraded to 6-B then at least that will make the matchups removal very easy.