Question about Non-Physical Interaction.

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So I was thinking about doing a matchup and I was wondering something. If you have Non-Physical Interaction that specifically allows you to Touch, Harm and even kill Ghosts/Spirits/Etc can you kill someone with Low-Godly Regen by continuously One-Shotting them with a Massive AP Advantage and a Constant Stream of Attacks (something like an Flamethrower or Energy Blast that keeps going for longer than a few seconds)?

 

[Purgy]

So I was thinking about doing a matchup and I was wondering something. If you have Non-Physical Interaction that specifically allows you to Touch, Harm and even kill Ghosts/Spirits/Etc can you kill someone with Low-Godly Regen by continuously One-Shotting them with a Massive AP Advantage and a Constant Stream of Attacks (something like an Flamethrower or Energy Blast that keeps going for longer than a few seconds)?

Yes

Actually, I'm not sure.

Low-Godly isn't regenerating the soul, so if you have attacks that target and destroy the soul, Low-Godly is useless.

Can you link the matchup?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yes

Oh, OK. That means the matchup I made days ago isn't a Regen Stomp for Madara then.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yes

Actually, I'm not sure.

Low-Godly isn't regenerating the soul, so if you have attacks that target and destroy the soul, Low-Godly is useless.

Can you link the matchup?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/madara-uchiha-vs-jyrik-gauldurson.118489/

 

[Agnaa]

So I was thinking about doing a matchup and I was wondering something. If you have Non-Physical Interaction that specifically allows you to Touch, Harm and even kill Ghosts/Spirits/Etc can you kill someone with Low-Godly Regen by continuously One-Shotting them with a Massive AP Advantage and a Constant Stream of Attacks (something like an Flamethrower or Energy Blast that keeps going for longer than a few seconds)?

Firstly, a constant stream of attacks doesn't seem relevant here. If you can overcome their regen, you don't need to keep attacking them. If you can't overcome their regen, repeated attacks only incaps, which can be enough for a win, but doesn't turn it into a kill.

Secondly, I don't think we assume that low-godly regen can be overcome just because you can interact with ghosts. It'd need to be a really specific situation, like their physical form comes back because of their ghostly true form, that NEP would be able to overcome.

In most situations I'm familiar with, just NEP wouldn't override low-godly.

Low-Godly isn't regenerating the soul, so if you have attacks that target and destroy the soul, Low-Godly is useless.

But the OP didn't say "attacks that target the soul", they said "attacks that can kill ghosts", I don't think we really equalize the two.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

So I was thinking about doing a matchup and I was wondering something. If you have Non-Physical Interaction that specifically allows you to Touch, Harm and even kill Ghosts/Spirits/Etc can you kill someone with Low-Godly Regen by continuously One-Shotting them with a Massive AP Advantage and a Constant Stream of Attacks (something like an Flamethrower or Energy Blast that keeps going for longer than a few seconds)?

Firstly, a constant stream of attacks doesn't seem relevant here. If you can overcome their regen, you don't need to keep attacking them. If you can't overcome their regen, repeated attacks only incaps, which can be enough for a win, but doesn't turn it into a kill.

Secondly, I don't think we assume that low-godly regen can be overcome just because you can interact with ghosts. It'd need to be a really specific situation, like their physical form comes back because of their ghostly true form, that NEP would be able to overcome.

In most situations I'm familiar with, just NEP wouldn't override low-godly.

Low-Godly isn't regenerating the soul, so if you have attacks that target and destroy the soul, Low-Godly is useless.

But the OP didn't say "attacks that target the soul", they said "attacks that can kill ghosts", I don't think we really equalize the two.

OK, the Character I'm referring to Regenerates a weird Paper Mache Body from their Soul whenever they get damaged or destroyed, so if that Paper Body gets Obliterated could someone with NPI be able to kill them when there's nothing between the Soul and the Attacks?

 

[Agnaa]

They'd need to be able to interact with souls directly (not all NPI can do this), and they'd need to have range to hit the soul (depends on the mechanics of the character with the paper body).

Depending on where the soul's located, they may not even need to destroy the body. Also, fast enough regen could make it impossible for them to hit the soul if it's located in the body and the attacker doesn't have any sort of durability negation.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

They'd need to be able to interact with souls directly (not all NPI can do this), and they'd need to have range to hit the soul (depends on the mechanics of the character with the paper body).

Depending on where the soul's located, they may not even need to destroy the body. Also, fast enough regen could make it impossible for them to hit the soul if it's located in the body and the attacker doesn't have any sort of durability negation.

As I said, he can interact with Ghosts, Souls and other things of the Spiritual Variety like that and yes, the Soul is in the Paper Body. The Body is also only Large Mountain Level (at the moment) while the guy I'm talking about is Multi-Continental with the ability to make a constant stream of Damage in the form of Fire, Ice and Lightning.

 

[Agnaa]

Yeah this isn't a general thing, but if Character A can kill souls, and Character B has regen reliant on their soul within their body, then Character A can permakill Character B.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yeah this isn't a general thing, but if Character A can kill souls, and Character B has regen reliant on their soul within their body, then Character A can permakill Character B.

That's all I needed to know. Thank you.

 

[DeathNoodles]

While I do agree that this isn’t an impossibility, this is going to require input from other users, particularly a couple of staff members.

I recall there are a couple of them that disagrees that soul-based Non-Physical interaction of disembodied souls/spirits ≠ affecting souls inhabiting vessels (or in short, soul-based Non-Physical Interaction ≠ Soul Manipulation), but this doesn’t take into account of higher AP of affecting a Low-Godly regenerative character’s soul after they’ve been reduced to no body with only a soul before they can reform their body, so it makes such situations quite... Complex to conclude from what I see.

This thread will need to require some waiting in the meanwhile.

 

[Agnaa]

I assumed from Soul's statements that the character in question actually had statements of interacting with souls, and not just with ghosts, spirits, etc.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah this isn't a general thing, but if Character A can kill souls, and Character B has regen reliant on their soul within their body, then Character A can permakill Character B.

This was an interesting question. But yeah at the end of the day this is probably what I agree with most.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I assumed from Soul's statements that the character in question actually had statements of interacting with souls, and not just with ghosts, spirits, etc.

Souls in Skyrim are literally the same things as Ghosts and he can kill Ghosts.

 

[Agnaa]

What's the proof that they're literally the same thing?

 

[SamanPatou]

I agree that the character with regen might die if the other manages to destroy their soul before they can regen.

It all boils down to how the regen works, how fast it is, if the second character manages to reach or see the soul and so on.

It's no different than killing someone with a lower level of regen before they can heal, you just need to manage doing it.

And yes, having NPI doesn't mean you always hit the soul alongside the body with each attack, that's soul manip and must be specifically stated or shown.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

What's the proof that they're literally the same thing?

I don't have it on hand, but Physically Existing People can go into the Soul Cairn (a Plane of Oblivion that takes Souls from Soul Gems used in Enchantments and Necromancy as payment to the Ideal Masters) under the right prerequisites and still interact with the Souls there which are Souls specifically stolen (IE Soulhaxxed) from the bodies of the Living/Undead/etc and they're treated the same way as normal Ghosts. Hell, you can even summon a Horse that was sent there and everyone and there mother can still interact with it.

 

[Agnaa]

If everyone can interact with it there, that sounds like more of a feature of that plane (and the horse making itself tangible) than it does an ability of those characters in question. I doubt that every single human in TES can kill people's souls.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

If everyone can interact with it there, that sounds like more of a feature of that plane (and the horse making itself tangible) than it does an ability of those characters in question. I doubt that every single human in TES can kill people's souls.

It's never stated that the Soul Cairn just gives you the ability to interact with Souls nor is Arvak stated as being able to make himself Incorporeal and Corporeal at will, he's just a Horse Soul that can be summoned for a quick mount and yet he can be damaged by literally everyone that attacks him outside of the Soul Cairn.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think we need a statement that characters can change their corporeality at will for them to demonstrate that by being able to be touched by literally every character in the series.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Anyways, as for Ghosts Specifically, they are stated to be the Souls themselves. In fact, I can give an example of one right now in the form of Lucian Lechance AKA The Spectral Assassin.

With Vici's murder, you've started us down a path the Dark Brotherhood hasn't traveled in centuries. The assassination of an Emperor. And now, your reward. A unique spell to summon a legend of the Dark Brotherhood. His soul serves us now in death, as his body once did in life. - Astrid

 

[Agnaa]

I don't think that's strong enough evidence that their ghost form is literally a soul, and that being able to kill them means you can kill the souls of other characters.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I don't think that's strong enough evidence that their ghost form is literally a soul, and that being able to kill them means you can kill the souls of other characters.

It's literally verbatim stated to be his Soul, what else would Ghosts be?

 

[Agnaa]

An incorporeal form driven by his soul, where "the soul" is an ethereal essence akin to a mind.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I'm sorry, but where is this "ghosts aren't souls" thing coming from? The terms are interchangeable and are synonyms. You'd be arguing weird, nitpicky "breastfeed me please" arguments otherwise.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

An incorporeal form driven by his soul, where "the soul" is an ethereal essence akin to a mind.

That's clearly not the case though. It literally says that it's his Soul, it can't get much clearer than this.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm sorry, but where is this "ghosts aren't souls" thing coming from? The terms are interchangeable and are synonyms. You'd be arguing weird, nitpicky "breastfeed me please" arguments otherwise.

Exactly, Thank you.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm sorry, but where is this "ghosts aren't souls" thing coming from? The terms are interchangeable and are synonyms. You'd be arguing weird, nitpicky "breastfeed me please" arguments otherwise.

They are absolutely not synonyms. They are used differently all the ******* time. Ghosts are the intangible remnants of dead people, the soul is the intangible culmination of one's being. You don't have a ghost sitting inside of you all your life that gives you free will. When someone rips out your soul they are not ripping out a ghost. Hell, some people even hold that ghosts are demons.

It is also ridiculously uncommon for people who can harm ghosts to be able to punch the souls of people who are alive.

I have no clue what that last sentence is meant to mean.

That's clearly not the case though. It literally says that it's his Soul, it can't get much clearer than this.

It doesn't say "This spirit is literally the exact same thing as the person's soul", it says "His soul serves us now in death", obviously flowery language about how he's still doing shit for you, which can be explained in other ways (like I outlined above). It's not a way of establishing that all ghosts in the series are souls.

Exactly, Thank you.

Our answers to this thread should ABSOULTELY NOT be taken to mean that every character who can damage ghosts can get around low-godly regeneration, since with this comment that sounds like what you're trying to make it out to be.

 

[Axxtentacle]

They're synonyms.

It is also ridiculously uncommon for people who can harm ghosts to be able to punch the souls of people who are alive.

I wasn't commenting on this, but in theory, what exactly stops them from stabbing someone and, by default, stabbing the soul as well? If a soul resides in a body, which is an assumption till proven otherwise the same way we assume souls are there until proven otherwise, why can't you stab it if you can interact with souls?

 

[Axxtentacle]

 

[Agnaa]

They're synonyms.

Fun fact: Synonyms don't always have literally the exact same definition in every way they're used. They're just words that can commonly be substituted. Take for example how "hallucination" is provided as a synonym there. That doesn't mean that we give characters NPI for punching things they hallucinate on a drug trip. Take how shadow is listed as a synonym. That doesn't mean that characters who can harm ghosts can harm characters who enter shadows.

I wasn't commenting on this, but in theory, what exactly stops them from stabbing someone and, by default, stabbing the soul as well? If a soul resides in a body, which is an assumption till proven otherwise the same way we assume souls are there until proven otherwise, why can't you stab it if you can interact with souls?

The thing that's stopping it is exactly what you quoted; doing such is ridiculously uncommon.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/785015390689951794/849455971448258601/unknown.png

Note how there's different definitions. Where sometimes they are the same and sometimes they aren't. If thy were always the same thing there would only be one definition.

 

[Axxtentacle]

They're synonyms.

Fun fact: Synonyms don't always have literally the exact same definition in every way they're used. They're just words that can commonly be substituted. Take for example how "hallucination" is provided as a synonym there. That doesn't mean that we give characters NPI for punching things they hallucinate on a drug trip. Take how shadow is listed as a synonym. That doesn't mean that characters who can harm ghosts can harm characters who enter shadows.

I understand that. But "ghost" by definition lines up with spirit, and Hell, Spirit is called "the soul" and "a ghost" in between definitions.

Also, where the hell does this come from?

That doesn't mean that characters who can harm ghosts can harm characters who enter shadows.

That's a different kind of NPI.

I wasn't commenting on this, but in theory, what exactly stops them from stabbing someone and, by default, stabbing the soul as well? If a soul resides in a body, which is an assumption till proven otherwise the same way we assume souls are there until proven otherwise, why can't you stab it if you can interact with souls?

The thing that's stopping it is exactly what you quoted; doing such is ridiculously uncommon.

I mean, sure. I'm fine with saying it's not necessarily how it works, but why wouldn't that be a default till proven otherwise? The soul resides in the body, it would work like that unless we have a reason to believe that it doesn't work like that.

 

[Agnaa]

I understand that. But "ghost" by definition lines up with spirit, and Hell, Spirit is called "the soul" and "a ghost" in between definitions.

Sometimes, but not all the time. They're different definitions for a reason.

Also, where the hell does this come from?

That's a different kind of NPI.

...

You said, "Ghost and soul are synonyms according to this picture, therefore they're the same kind of NPI!" I responded by saying "It also says that ghost and shadow are synonyms, and they're obviously not the same kind of NPI."

I mean, sure. I'm fine with saying it's not necessarily how it works, but why wouldn't that be a default till proven otherwise? The soul resides in the body, it would work like that unless we have a reason to believe that it doesn't work like that.

We generally either decide defaults by how things work in real life (we don't know the mechanics of souls in real life so that's inapplicable), by how things generally work in fiction (in which case what I said would be the default), or by assuming lack of power until power is demonstrated (in which case what I said would be the default).

 

[Axxtentacle]

I understand that. But "ghost" by definition lines up with spirit, and Hell, Spirit is called "the soul" and "a ghost" in between definitions.

Sometimes, but not all the time. They're different definitions for a reason.

They're different definitions, but the definitions are extremely similar and overlap. There's no reason other than "it doesn't HAVE to be the same", which would apply to verses where they're strictly separate. Not to everything.

Also, where the hell does this come from?

That's a different kind of NPI.

...

You said, "Ghost and soul are synonyms according to this picture, therefore they're the same kind of NPI!" I responded by saying "It also says that ghost and shadow are synonyms, and they're obviously not the same kind of NPI."

I said Ghosts and Souls are interchangeable terms whereas ghost and "shadow" aren't. Ghosts and souls being described as "shadows" is more than not just flowery language.

Shadow's definition is also not similar at all. "a dark area or shape produced by a body coming between rays of light and a surface."

Meanwhile, the definitions for things like "spirit", "soul" and "ghost" are all similar and often interchangeable terms.

I mean, sure. I'm fine with saying it's not necessarily how it works, but why wouldn't that be a default till proven otherwise? The soul resides in the body, it would work like that unless we have a reason to believe that it doesn't work like that.

We generally either decide defaults by how things work in real life (we don't know the mechanics of souls in real life so that's inapplicable), by how things generally work in fiction (in which case what I said would be the default), or by assuming lack of power until power is demonstrated (in which case what I said would be the default).

In real life, the soul is generally accepted to be in the body. It would be a common sense thing unless there's a reason to believe it's not.

Don't forget that is also how it's treated in fiction 99% of the time.

 

[Agnaa]

They're different definitions, but the definitions are extremely similar and overlap. There's no reason other than "it doesn't HAVE to be the same", which would apply to verses where they're strictly separate. Not to everything.

No, it would apply to everything, since they're commonly not the same, even if they sometimes overlap.

I said Ghosts and Souls are interchangeable terms whereas ghost and "shadow" aren't. Ghosts and souls being described as "shadows" is more than not just flowery language.

I think the exact same thing applies with ghost and soul.

Meanwhile, the definitions for things like "spirit", "soul" and "ghost" are all similar and often interchangeable terms.

They are not all similar. They can share one definition (a disembodied/evanescent form that can wander around the world of the living after death), but each have other definitions which are completely different.

In real life, the soul is generally accepted to be in the body. It would be a common sense thing unless there's a reason to believe it's not.

Well that's your view and I've presented mine, so I guess we can wait for more input.

 

[Axxtentacle]

They're different definitions, but the definitions are extremely similar and overlap. There's no reason other than "it doesn't HAVE to be the same", which would apply to verses where they're strictly separate. Not to everything.

No, it would apply to everything, since they're commonly not the same, even if they sometimes overlap.

Not commonly the same? How many verses separate ghosts and souls?

I said Ghosts and Souls are interchangeable terms whereas ghost and "shadow" aren't. Ghosts and souls being described as "shadows" is more than not just flowery language.

I think the exact same thing applies with ghost and soul.

Not at all. I explained why. The definition for spirit calls them ghosts, and another calls it The Soul. Actually, the primary one calls it the soul.

Meanwhile, the definitions for things like "spirit", "soul" and "ghost" are all similar and often interchangeable terms.

They are not all similar. They can share one definition (a disembodied/evanescent form that can wander around the world of the living after death), but each have other definitions which are completely different.

Ok? What's the point of this? The point is that they're all used in effectively the same way for the same things across verses.

In real life, the soul is generally accepted to be in the body. It would be a common sense thing unless there's a reason to believe it's not.

Well that's your view and I've presented mine, so I guess we can wait for more input.

How is it only my view? The soul is generally accepted to be in the body, and that's how 99.99% of fictional verses treat it.


This is genuinely the most semantics-fueled argument i've ever seen on the wiki.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm not trying to say he has Soul Manipulation or whatever, just that he can kill Ghosts.

 

[Agnaa]

Not commonly the same? How many verses separate ghosts and souls?

How do you expect that to be answered lmao? I already said "commonly not". Do you want me to give a count of every single piece of fiction that's ever separated them?

Not at all. I explained why. The definition for spirit calls them ghosts, and another calls it The Soul. Actually, the primary one calls it the soul.

Right after this I explained that they share one definition, and told you the definition they shared.

Ok? What's the point of this? The point is that they're all used in effectively the same way for the same things across verses.

The point is that you said their definitions are all similar. Which is incorrect. They each have many definitions which they don't share. And since fiction also abides by this, they're not used in the same way for most verses.

How is it only my view? The soul is generally accepted to be in the body, and that's how 99.99% of fictional verses treat it.

By "That's your view" I meant that way of deciding defaults by jumping across some tenuous assumptions to get an extraordinary power. Start with "souls are in the body" and "ghosts are souls" and go to "every character that can affect ghosts has soul attacks". That's not really something I see across the wiki.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm not trying to say he has Soul Manipulation or whatever, just that he can kill Ghosts.

If you consider ghosts and souls to be interchangeable (except in cases where they're explicitly distinguished between), then you are saying that those who can kill ghosts have soul attacks.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm not trying to say he has Soul Manipulation or whatever, just that he can kill Ghosts.

If you consider ghosts and souls to be interchangeable (except in cases where they're explicitly distinguished between), then you are saying that those who can kill ghosts have soul attacks.

If that's the way it ends up being then sure, but then I'll have to edit his Profile to actually include Soul Manipulation since I assumed that NPI is enough to kill Ghosts/Souls.