Punishing: Gray Raven | Power/ability removal

[Firestorm808]

Umm...can you format this better so it's easier to actually digest and read? I'm not even sure for some of these at which moment you're just quoting stuff or adding in your own personal opinion

I have differentiated the quotes now.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

• "Additionally, Ishmael is listed as having NEP with regards to body and mind due to a scan saying that she's "empty" as well as being "Shapeless and soulless." The issue here is that this just isn't NEP. There is no indication here that Ishmael has a nonexistent physical body which is a necessary prerequisite for NEP.

It states she's shapeless and "empty", shapeless is self explanatory and the definition of the word empty is as follows: "containing nothing ; not not filled or occupied". This scan is then further enhanced by the translated version which clearly states she's incorporeal to give further context to what "shapeless" meant. The "empty" part, is the clarification for NEP.

• "There isn't any indication of her having a nonexistent mind either even though she's listed as having NEP with aspect 3 (nonexistent mind)."

The translated version clarifies that they didn't have a consciousness.

• When they regard body, do they mean that the entity is immaterial/lacking physical matter or an abstract?
• When they regard mind, do they imply that there is no "will" or "literal thought" so to speak behind the enity's actions and behaviors?
• Lacking the soul aspect seems okay.

• That is clarified by the use of emptiness.
• They say consciousness verbatim in the translated version
• Yes.

• "There's also no proof of incorporeality or restoration either (although I feel like Alipheese might have some proof of incorporeality that he hasn't provided yet) so those should be removed as well."

Correct me if I'm wrong but he would have to make an additional CRT to remove a power/ability unrelated to the OP, so I have no reason to answer this until that's done or I am proven wrong as a result of being mistaken.

• "Incorporeal (or Non-Corporeal) beings are those who have no true physical form. Though they may have physical avatars or bodies, but their true essence exists non-physically, whether as a soul, as energy, or as an abstract concept."
• This is linked to being immaterial/lacking physical matter or an abstract.
• If I recall from earlier, due to [insert reason] projections of themselves from a higher dimension are used. Is this correct?

It's not projections from a higher dimension, they are projections from the lower dimension.

• What is the reason for using projections?

Don't really understand this question, as I feel it's irrelevant to the point at hand. Can you clarify what you mean?

 

[Hayato5652]

I think this is the translated version of this s scan

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I have differentiated the quotes now.

Haven't received your verdict

 

[Firestorm808]

It states she's shapeless and "empty", shapeless is self explanatory and the definition of the word empty is as follows: "containing nothing ; not not filled or occupied". This scan is then further enhanced by the translated version which clearly states she's incorporeal to give further context to what "shapeless" meant. The "empty" part, is the clarification for NEP.

The translated version clarifies that they didn't have a consciousness.

• That is clarified by the use of emptiness.
• They say consciousness verbatim in the translated version
• Yes.

Correct me if I'm wrong but he would have to make an additional CRT to remove a power/ability unrelated to the OP, so I have no reason to answer this until that's done or I am proven wrong as a result of being mistaken.

It's not projections from a higher dimension, they are projections from the lower dimension.

Don't really understand this question, as I feel it's irrelevant to the point at hand. Can you clarify what you mean?

1. Being immaterial/lacking physical matter is fine.
2. The scan says that there is no "unified consciousness," not that there is no consciousness at all.
3. Why would projections of the true entity originate from the lower dimension?
4. Why are projections used?

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

1. Being immaterial/lacking physical matter is fine.
2. The scan says that there is no "unified consciousness," not that there is no consciousness at all.
3. Why would projections of the true entity originate from the lower dimension?
4. Why are projections used?

1. Ok
2. Yes, it's not directly saying that there isn't any but that's proven to be the point of the statement through the fact that the projection is just not the real Ishmael who's mind does not exist on the same plane.
3. That's just how higher dimensional existence works in the verse, the projection has to originate from the lower dimension so as to only be madeup of the amount of dimensions the place allows.
4. Because she is higher dimensional and physically cannot fit in lower dimensions.

 

[Telomera]

Yes, it's not directly saying that there isn't any but that's proven to be the point of the statement through the fact that the projection is just not the real Ishmael who's mind does not exist on the same plane.

That doesn't prove that it lacks a mind. After all, it does seem to think and talk, so one would think that Ishmael is projecting part of her mind just like how she projects her own power even though neither of those things exist on the same plane.

 

[Firestorm808]

3. That's just how higher dimensional existence works in the verse, the projection has to originate from the lower dimension so as to only be madeup of the amount of dimensions the place allows.
4. Because she is higher dimensional and physically cannot fit in lower dimensions.

I believe you are misunderstanding the general mechanics of higher-dimensional beings creating a projection of themselves to interact in a lower dimension. The source of the projection and power comes from their higher-dimensional self, but it's limited to allow the projection to "fit" in the lower dimension.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

That doesn't prove that it lacks a mind. After all, it does seem to think and talk

That doesn't prove it has a mind either, characters who have an aspect to lack a mind in fiction often still display the ability to think, speak, etc so this doesn't mean anything.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I believe you are misunderstanding the general mechanics of higher-dimensional beings creating a projection of themselves to interact in a lower dimension. The source of the projection and power comes from their higher-dimensional self, but it's limited to allow the projection to "fit" in the lower dimension.

I'm not misunderstanding anything, you specifically asked why would projections of the true entity originate from the lower dimension. You did not ask about the source of it's power, you just asked about it's projection. Which again, originates from the lower dimension yes the power given to the projection comes from their higher dimensional self but that's not what you asked. A projection does not inherently mean that they give themselves a portion of their power it's just an avatar and projections that have not been given any power at all do exist.

 

[Richtofen115rdg5]

I believe you are misunderstanding the general mechanics of higher-dimensional beings creating a projection of themselves to interact in a lower dimension. The source of the projection and power comes from their higher-dimensional self, but it's limited to allow the projection to "fit" in the lower dimension.

Primal Projection is a projection of a higher Watcher and the higher Watcher is a congregation of even higher Watchers' will

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I also still do not understand how this is relevant to the topic at hand

 

[Richtofen115rdg5]

I also still do not understand how this is relevant to the topic at hand

The statements and scans in chapter 21 are conflicting with each other, I confused at first too, so no wonder why people are confusing and questioning irrelevant stuff right now

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

The statements and scans in chapter 21 are conflicting with each other, I confused at first too, so no wonder why people are confusing and questioning irrelevant stuff right now

What statements and what scans?

 

[Richtofen115rdg5]

What statements and what scans?

I'll DM you later

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I'll DM you later

What? If it's related to the CRT just send it here, otherwise there's no point in discussing it

 

[Telomera]

That doesn't prove it has a mind either, characters who have an aspect to lack a mind in fiction often still display the ability to think, speak, etc so this doesn't mean anything.

I'm just saying that's what you'd assume by default. The burden of proof is on you to show that she has type 3 NEP. It should be changed to just type 1 since that's what the text actually says. And of course nonduality should be removed as well as restoration (unless you have proof of restoration).

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I'm just saying that's what you'd assume by default. The burden of proof is on you to show that she has type 3 NEP.

I never said she had type 3 NEP and she's not listed as having it, don't know what you're referring to here.

And of course nonduality should be removed as well as restoration (unless you have proof of restoration).

This thread does not pertain to restoration, so I have absolutely no reason to do anything regarding it. If you'd like to argue against that, make a CRT.

 

[Richtofen115rdg5]

What? If it's related to the CRT just send it here, otherwise there's no point in discussing it

Fine if you want to

So... After Telomera said this :"It seems like the former because the text is initially talking about "them" and only proceeds to talk about the projection AFTER that. Considering this, it seems it would be appropriate to give incorporeality to Ishmael's watcher key specifically and not her projection key."

I had to revise PGR chapter 21 and some scans again. I noticed some conflicts and plot-holes in various statements. I remembered that I also talked about this problem very very long ago on Discord but no one seemed to care about it.

Go straight to the point. At first, I was confused, I had thought about an idea that Primal Projection (the Boss Lee fought) and the Watcher (who talked to Lee in cutscenes) were same person, as even suggested in the animation (0:08). However, the two lines completely erased my idea. After that, I noticed this : the Watcher is just a congregation of other Watchers' will. This, again, conflicted with the later line said that Lee damaged the Watcher themselves. Which one? This one or the other one? That's the first contradiction about in-game names (Note that the Watcher in cutscenes didn't even have an official name other than Primal Projection 5:03:35 — 21-18 The End of Time). The second contradiction is that this, this, this and this, all of these scans said that "a small fraction of their power was projected to question humanity". However, the problem is, all those scans are talking about Primal Projection not the Watcher, you can see in some of those scans there were even Kuro staff discussing about Primal Projection and not the Watcher. Those lines in those scan are kicking each other mouths in every versions of the game. And that's also why I came up with the idea that Primal Projection and the Watcher are the same person, but once again, in-game statements debunked that. All of what I am yapping right now creates a loop of eternal conflicts, a Spiral of Chronos

So what do we do now? Explaining the errors and conflicts, of course.

This thread does not pertain to restoration, so I have absolutely no reason to do anything regarding it. If you'd like to argue against that, make a CRT.

It did, reread the thread again, it's in the last paragraph

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Fine if you want to

So... After Telomera said this :"It seems like the former because the text is initially talking about "them" and only proceeds to talk about the projection AFTER that. Considering this, it seems it would be appropriate to give incorporeality to Ishmael's watcher key specifically and not her projection key."

This is just your own misunderstanding due to ignorance, you have not read chapter 33 clearly.

I had to revise PGR chapter 21 and some scans again. I noticed some conflicts and plot-holes in various statements. I remembered that I also talked about this problem very very long ago on Discord but no one seemed to care about it.

Go straight to the point. At first, I was confused, I had thought about an idea that Primal Projection (the Boss Lee fought) and the Watcher (who talked to Lee in cutscenes) were same person, as even suggested in the animation (0:08). However, the two lines completely erased my idea.

Yeah, nobody cares about it because it's not an issue.

After that, I noticed this : the Watcher is just a congregation of other Watchers' will. This, again, conflicted with the later line said that Lee damaged the Watcher themselves.

There is 0 confliction here, Lee did not damage the body of the Watcher and it's very clearly referring to the Primal Projection. I don't know how you interpret that sentence any other way considering you have read chapter 21, but it's blatantly obvious
1. The Primal Projection is what he is fighting, not Ishmael's Observer self.
2. Ishmael does not exist in the gate so how in gods name would he damage her if he legit cannot interact with her?
3. The immediate following line of dialogue mentions that the body projecting the starry sky disintegrates and the projection has difficulty maintaining itself.

So this OBVIOUSLY all proves it is the Projection and not Ishmael herself, this is made even more apparent if you read chapter 33 (which you clearly did not) it was ignored in the discord because what you're saying makes no sense.

Which one? This one or the other one? That's the first contradiction about in-game names

What the hell are you even yapping about? It's the same exact image there is no contradiction.

The second contradiction is that this, this, this and this, all of these scans said that "a small fraction of their power was projected to question humanity". However, the problem is, all those scans are talking about Primal Projection not the Watcher

Jesus christ...I'm getting an aneurysm reading this

you can see in some of those scans there were even Kuro staff discussing about Primal Projection and not the Watcher. Those lines in those scan are kicking each other mouths in every versions of the game. And that's also why I came up with the idea that Primal Projection and the Watcher are the same person, but once again, in-game statements debunked that. All of what I am yapping right now creates a loop of eternal conflicts, a Spiral of Chronos

So what do we do now? Explaining the errors and conflicts, of course.

This doesn't create absolutely any conflict dawg you're just making an issue out of nothing because of poor comprehension skills. The Projection is just that...a projection. It both is and is not her, it's just an avatar so obviously the statements are going to show how little consequence the avatar is to her, as one exists on a lower plane and the other exists on a higher plane. This is not only completely unrelated to the thread topic at hand, but I'm genuinely in awe of why you even think anything you said is remotely conflicting I'm going to take a guess and say you're not a native English speaker because that's the only way I can see you'd be this confused and mistaken about half the stuff that you mentioned.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

That's not a bad idea, seriously

It is a terrible idea, as it is completely contradicted by the fact that Ishmael's Observer self is also incorporeal.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Go straight to the point. At first, I was confused, I had thought about an idea that Primal Projection (the Boss Lee fought) and the Watcher (who talked to Lee in cutscenes) were same person, as even suggested in the animation (0:08). However, the two lines completely erased my idea. After that, I noticed this : the Watcher is just a congregation of other Watchers' will. This, again, conflicted with the later line said that Lee damaged the Watcher themselves. Which one? This one or the other one? That's the first contradiction about in-game names (Note that the Watcher in cutscenes didn't even have an official name other than Primal Projection 5:03:35 — 21-18 The End of Time). The second contradiction is that this, this, this and this, all of these scans said that "a small fraction of their power was projected to question humanity". However, the problem is, all those scans are talking about Primal Projection not the Watcher, you can see in some of those scans there were even Kuro staff discussing about Primal Projection and not the Watcher. Those lines in those scan are kicking each other mouths in every versions of the game. And that's also why I came up with the idea that Primal Projection and the Watcher are the same person, but once again, in-game statements debunked that. All of what I am yapping right now creates a loop of eternal conflicts, a Spiral of Chronos

So what do we do now? Explaining the errors and conflicts, of course.

It did, reread the thread again, it's in the last paragraph

It is obvious which one the Watcher is referring to that Lee was fighting. AKA the Projection.
The Speaker has the title Primal Projection, which could mean that the Watcher now speaks through this projection, rather than just through the face-only form.

And remember, the Watcher wants an answer based on Lee's will by challenging him to a fight with the primal projection. So obviously, the small fraction of power is referring to the Primal projection.

You're kinda overthinking this. and making this thread confusing

 

[Shiroiyo]

Bump

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

1. Being immaterial/lacking physical matter is fine.

Forgot to ask before but am I to take this as you agreeing with her Type 1 NEP?

 

[Telomera]

snip

Can we at least get rid of ND2? This at the very least was agreed on by multiple staff.

 

[Hayato5652]

This at the very least was agreed on by multiple staff.

You need at least 2 votes from staff members, but preferably 3.

 

[Telomera]

snip

It's been over a month and the opposition to the thread still hasn't provided a single bit of evidence for ND2 or nonduality at all for that matter. Would you vote in favor of removing nonduality from Ishmael's profile?

Restoration should also be removed as stated in the OP, but I'm not so sure about NEP (here's the translation someone in the thread gave)

 

[Voidnether]

It's been over a month and the opposition to the thread still hasn't provided a single bit of evidence for ND2 or nonduality at all for that matter. Would you vote in favor of removing nonduality from Ishmael's profile?

Restoration should also be removed as stated in the OP, but I'm not so sure about NEP (here's the translation someone in the thread gave)

I thought we have this, though?

For verse-specific threads, if the only opposing party does not reply for over 2 weeks without any notice or known/suspected extenuating circumstances, then the moderators should try to get the thread to completion without them, assuming that they'd probably not reply. However, their points should not be discarded, and this should not be treated as that user conceding. Their arguments and votes should be kept in mind while the thread goes on and anybody else is free to argue in their stead.

Literally it doesn't matter if it's been over a month or not, what do you mean by them not providing a single bit of evidence when they clearly did everytime with the blue links? Look, if you wanna discard evidence then at the least don't word it like as if they don't provide even the slightest bit of evidence to support it. That's actually malicious.

 

[Firestorm808]

It's been over a month and the opposition to the thread still hasn't provided a single bit of evidence for ND2 or nonduality at all for that matter. Would you vote in favor of removing nonduality from Ishmael's profile?

Restoration should also be removed as stated in the OP, but I'm not so sure about NEP (here's the translation someone in the thread gave)

Yes.

Also fine.

 

[Telomera]

Literally it doesn't matter if it's been over a month or not, what do you mean by them not providing a single bit of evidence when they clearly did everytime with the blue links? Look, if you wanna discard evidence then at the least don't word it like as if they don't provide even the slightest bit of evidence to support it. That's actually malicious.

None of those links had anything to do with nonduality. And I already have two votes to remove nonduality as a result.

 

[Voidnether]

None of those links had anything to do with nonduality. And I already have two votes to remove nonduality as a result.

I was just reminding ^^
That's what you think that it doesn't have to do anything with Nonduality, but AlipheeseXIV thought the otherwise right? That's why you shouldn't say stuff like if they haven't provide a single evidence for it, about the votes and stuff tbh I don't really care much anyway but yeah.

It just irks me when somebody said that, but since you have the votes then go on

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I agree with removing it.

 

[Telomera]

I agree with removing it.

I was indecisive about removing NEP at first in one of my recent messages here, but now I'm quite sure it should be removed. Would you also agree with removing her NEP?

Ishmael is listed as lacking a mind, but the scan that was given doesn't actually say that the primal projection lacks a mind. Even with this translation that the opposition gave, it only talks about what she "originally" had and it says nothing about what the actual primal projection has at the present (it seems to be implied that she just had a "dis-unified consciousness" that was "weaved together" to create a unified consciousness, especially since the primal projection does in fact act as if it has a mind). And even if we were to take this as meaning that the current primal projection lacks a unified consciousness, that doesn't mean that it lacks any sort of mind entirely. After all, the fact that it can "question the species who knocks on their door" at all indicates the presence of a mind.

And of course, the translation that the opposition gave doesn't mention souls or spirits at all, so aspect 1 NEP should certainly be removed if we were to go by it.

Now that just leaves a lack of material existence, but that's just incorporeality and doesn't qualify for NEP.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

snip

You can lack the aspect of a mind and still act as if you have one.
And it does mean to say it lacks a unified consciousness or a body, but by using causality, they can project their power at the top of the hetero tower.
which means to say it is purely energy or power without form or consciousness.

The term "Unified consciousness" is a philosophical idea and not just a word combined. where in some it is considered as the unified connection of mind, spirit, and soul or sometimes Ego. but by default it would mean consciousness in a sense of mind spirit or soul or self as one (or do not include mind and spirit or soul for more scientific/theory understanding of it)

As for the soul and spirit, I believe it is akin to how Mind = soul in this series. (which is then supported based on how it is called as "Unified consciousness" rather than just mind or spirit or thought)

 

[Telomera]

And it does mean to say it lacks a unified consciousness or a body, but by using causality, they can project their power at the top of the hetero tower.
which means to say it is purely energy or power without form or consciousness.

How do you know that it still lacks a unified consciousness after all of the weaving together? You're just making ungrounded claims now.

The term "Unified consciousness" is a philosophical idea and not just a word combined. where in some it is considered as the unified connection of mind, spirit, and soul or sometimes Ego. but by default it would mean consciousness in a sense of mind spirit or soul or self as one (or do not include mind and spirit or soul for more scientific/theory understanding of it)

Again, you're just making ungrounded claims. The burden of proof is on you to prove that lacking a "unified consciousness" = lacking a mind/minds or consciousness altogether.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I was on vacation, but this thread was mostly dead anyways.

I thought we have this, though?

Literally it doesn't matter if it's been over a month or not, what do you mean by them not providing a single bit of evidence when they clearly did everytime with the blue links? Look, if you wanna discard evidence then at the least don't word it like as if they don't provide even the slightest bit of evidence to support it. That's actually malicious.

Not surprising they're like this comprehensive diff ig

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I don't mind the ND2 being removed but the NEP is an entirely different story.

How do you know that it still lacks a unified consciousness after all of the weaving together? You're just making ungrounded claims now.

Again, you're just making ungrounded claims. The burden of proof is on you to prove that lacking a "unified consciousness" = lacking a mind/minds or consciousness altogether.

Likewise it is on you to make actual comprehensive counterarguments and not just act like an AI repeating the same things whilst claiming nobody has offered any proof or evidence when you're doing the exact same by offering 0 structured counterarguments or criticism.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

How do you know that it still lacks a unified consciousness after all of the weaving together? You're just making ungrounded claims now.

How do you know it doesn't? You're also making an ungrounded claim, atp we can just continue going in circles and never get this CRT accepted or declined which seems to be what'll probably happen tbh lol. The ND I am fine with it going tho

 

[Telomera]

I don't mind the ND2 being removed but the NEP is an entirely different story.

Likewise it is on you to make actual comprehensive counterarguments and not just act like an AI repeating the same things whilst claiming nobody has offered any proof or evidence when you're doing the exact same by offering 0 structured counterarguments or criticism.

Stop shifting the burden of proof, that's fallacious. It's on you to prove that Ishmael's primal projection lacks a mind/soul, not on me to prove that she has one. As I already pointed out, "originally" lacking a "unified consciousness" is not the same thing as presently lacking consciousness/mind in general

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Stop shifting the burden of proof, that's fallacious. It's on you to prove that Ishmael's primal projection lacks a mind/soul, not on me to prove that she has one.

Nobody's shifting the burden of proof, I'm telling you your counterarguments are trash because you don't make any. You just fail to view anything that doesn't help or go against your points by parroting things, which is evident in your behavior and is even something multiple people on this thread have already called you out on. To make matters worse you try and curry favor with staff to get quick opinions from them to satiate your own agenda, rather than to fully wait out what others have to say in conjunction to the CRT.

As I already pointed out, "originally" lacking a "unified consciousness" is not the same thing as presently lacking consciousness/mind in general

Yeah except that wasn't actually your original argument, your original argument was just straight up claiming that it didn't qualify for NEP aspect type 3 because they were shown to think and act even though as I and Jedi have already stated it is entirely normal for characters who lack the aspect of a mind or consciousness to function as if they still have one. (Prime examples are Graham from Misfit of Demon King Academy, Oblivion from Marvel Comics, etc) Now if you're changing your stance to it "originally lacked a unified consciousness to it not being the same as presently lacking one in general" you'll need to elaborate more on that.